Nice wave Huck, I have to say I'm struggling to keep up with all your board changes! Sounds like you are having fun!
Yes, sorry about that. I have been changing up a bit, as always. Lately I have been riding my Banana Boat, my Wing Squad, my 8-8 performance longboard, my 8-4 single fin mini-glider, my 7-2 Gordita, my 9' glider with new sidebites, and my 7-4 thruster, ha!
From the beginning of this thread, I have been trying to focus on what makes a performance board for an older (I'm now 60) surfer. I was hoping to have an ongoing discussion, but it turns out no one is really as focused on it as I am, or they just pursue it privately. I suspect that not a lot of people who post here are really into surfboard design, or discussing surfboard design, or discussing how different tweaks can modify a design.
I suppose there could be a lot of reasons for that. Surfboard design is not an exact science, so its largely subjective. With so little agreed upon as "fact", your own ideas are just that, and hence, subject to attack, ridicule, disagreement, etc. And some guys feel that they have a special secret sauce, as discussed, some hard-earned design secrets, which they are not inclined to share. Because for one thing, then they're not "secret sauce" anymore, so where's the glamour in that?
Another thing I've touched on is that some guys just ride longboards as they get older. And some guys are good enough they still ride full on shortboards, like Hide (Hee-Day), 60 years old on his 5-10 Roberts.
I'm sorry Mattwho thought I lost faith in his 8-8 performance longboard, the thing goes like a rocket sled on rails and I love it! But what I meant was, I don't have good longboarding skills, you know like cross-stepping, nose-riding, drop knee turns, and the like. I admire the heck out of guys that ride like that, but I never rode longboards until recently, and don't have those skills. Here is a picture of me riding a 9' longboard, I am having fun, but you can see I'm not riding it like a longboard stylist would, I'm standing in the middle and trimming.
So I like longboarding, and I think I'm getting a little better as I go, but am ever pursuing other types of board shapes that can be ridden more like a shortboard. When the waves are a little bigger, I feel more comfortable on a board that's a bit shorter than a longboard, a bit more rocker , and with a more pulled in nose. But now that I have sidebites on my glider, I'm hoping to get it out in some head high surf and see how I like it. It is a heavy board, because it's made with US Blanks Classic foam.
Anyway, I have succeeded in my quest, to some extent, but I feel there is still much room for exploration / experimentation / learning. I learned with my Banana Boat and my Wing Squad that thick boards do not have to be logs, they can be turned and get around on a wave face, you don't need a thin rail as much as some people think. But they take some getting used to, its almost like you have to adjust your surfing to them, before they start to be fun.
This is subjective, like I say, but I hear a lot of negativity about thick boards and thick rails, and just didn't find them to be as poor performers as some would have you believe. I built thick boards that ride well (for me), catch waves good, take late drops, and are good fun. I have many times paddled out into a crowded lineup, and gotten good waves, when other older guys who I suspect are probably better surfers than me, are not getting waves and just being frustrated.
Think about this: the video of Stretch I posted shows his Nathan Fletcher Mavericks gun, and it is fully 4 3/4" thick! Not saying that board is the do-all be-all, but Stretch is no dummy and he wouldn't be building thick boards for a pro like Nathan if he didn't think they could be viable. Just sayin'. Like I say, its all subjective, take from this, or from Stretch, what you will.
Anyway, so as of this week I'm onto my 7-4 thruster. Its a midlength, of course, with a wide tail and a domed deck, so its thick in the middle, I think a little more than 3", but thin at the rails, and pretty foiled at the nose and tail. Its one of my more "mainstream" board shapes, based loosely on the Stoker-V pictures Bruce put up, but with my own tweaks, like the domed deck, a little belly in the nose, etc.
My friend said he couldn't catch waves with it, but I'm puzzled. I thought I'd have a hard time coming off my 8 and 9 footers, but today I did just fine. Yeah I missed a couple I thought I had, but overall I definitely caught my quota, did better than I thought I would. I did not find it difficult to catch waves with. Will have to ride it for awhile to fully get the feel for it, and try to get comfortable in a variety of conditions.
At 7-4 I have to get into the waves a little later than my bigger boards, and with my slower popup (one of the biggest limitations you face as you age), there is a little less margin for error. But it was not a problem today, I'll see if it becomes one.
I thank those that have followed this thread, and those that have contributed. I think our learning accelerates when we share our ideas publicly, as long as we don't get derailed into arguments and pissing contests, etc., and that clearly hasn't been a problem with this thread.
Nothing wrong with a thicker rail, my second favorite board of all time had thick rails, in my head I was saying that it shouldn't work...... But it did.
But what I meant was, I don't have good longboarding skills, you know like cross-stepping, nose-riding, drop knee turns, and the like.
Oh, and trust her to get back under you....
HPLBs such as the 8-8 are to be ridden hard, more like a shorter board.
That (the 8-8) board has nose mass and the outline to really swing it around.
Oh and know body will notice the "shuffle" up to the max trim spot (2ft back from the tip).
My thoughts?
Quiver idis...
I (in the day) liked mine all the same, as it is hard jumping from board to board.
Competition demands trust in your boards.
It can be done, jus'
a kin to
lots ladies to know....
Yes, absolutely! I was trying to clarify my comments were about regular longboards, not that rocket sled you made, that thing takes off like a slingshot, and turns easy, I had some great rides on that board and just want to get the dings fixed before I get back on it!
No more comments about my surfing style on the HPLB, until I get some quid pro quo on the stubby, haha! Maybe try it as a kneelo see what happens, if your team guys not interested?
I also agree about the problem with switching up shapes - as a rider! I'm in constant conflict between the rider, and the shaper / designer. The rider wants consistency and comfort, boards I know how they will react. But the shaper wants to try something way different, different tails, different rails, more fins, less fins, shorter, longer, thicker, thinner, it goes on and on!
As a board builder I've never been content just to copy other boards, I'll take inspiration from other boards, but have to add my own tweaks, and mix the recipe on the fly. So it turns out every board I make is a prototype - which has its good points and bad, for sure!
Quid pro quo my friend, how about a little feedback on the stubby? Maybe try it as a kneelo see what happens, if your team guys not interested?
Team guy, Oceanside/Newport, Gave him one of mine to go.
He saw it (stubby), And was stoked. I'll press for reports
I also agree about the problem with switching up shapes - as a rider! I'm in constant conflict between the rider, and the shaper / designer. The rider wants consistency and comfort, boards I know how they will react. But the shaper wants to try something way different, different tails, different rails, more fins, less fins, shorter, longer, thicker, thinner, it goes on and on!
I understand,
in so many ways that is why we live and
search...
like
0
I would rather be someone's shot of whiskey, than everyone's cup of tea.
Hey Matty that's cool, looking forward to hearing something! If its a complete bust, maybe I can find something else you might enjoy? Will keep you updated on the 8-8 as I get some more time on it.
This week I'm working on getting the hang of the 7-4, its a challenge, I do feel a little shaky on it at times, especially on my popup, but I caught several fun little waves again today, so really can't complain. I'm thinking that with boards that have a wider nose, you have to be more up on the nose when you paddle into a wave, and really push that nose down into the wave as you take off, and maybe that was Rich's problem, he was further back like he's used to on his standard shortboard shape. Cuz I just can't see otherwise how he found it harder to catch waves with than a shortboard.
LiveTheMoment wrote:
Nothing wrong with a thicker rail, my second favorite board of all time had thick rails, in my head I was saying that it shouldn't work...... But it did.
Funny LTM, my mind works the same. When I finished my Wing Squad, I looked at it and thought "I blew it - the rails are too thick, its not gonna work." Then when I tried it, I was pleasantly surprised, the rails were not an issue. It turns good too, I'm sure a better surfer could turn it better, but I'm able to step back and swing it around just fine when I try, most the time I'm just headed down the line. I had a few waves where they sectioned out ahead of me and I thought OK nowhere to go forward, so I hit the skids and it wrapped right around and headed the other way, kinda surprised me. I'm thinking of a twin fin version, but just a little smaller, thinner, narrower, for my next board.
Twin Fin........ Following! Really not my cup of tea as for me they lack drive??......... But I'm sure you have an idea in your head that can work for you, and for that reason with detailed ride reports we can all learn something.
Huck, I have a question, you said on your wing squad that you used latex paint, plus you painted the deck but it was so watery it was almost transparent, was the idea of this to keep it whiter for longer? Did it work? Any negatives you can think of for doing this?
LTM
Years ago I had a twin fin fish, loved that board. For now I'm just experimenting by trying different fin setups.
The paint on the wing squad was not really very transparent when it was finished, it was thin but I put several thin coats. The whole board was brush painted (I may have used a foam roller for some of it, don't remember) on the foam, and it worked out fine, looks good, you can't tell it wasn't sprayed.
I've had several good sessions on my Wing Squad lately, the one with "too thick" rails, confirming (to my mind anyway) that I'm on to something here. I've also had a few comments regarding how easy I get around and how easy I catch waves, and even a comment that I probably caught more waves than anybody else on one particular day. I'm not real hyper, I tend to sit outside and wait for sets, so that's an accomplishment.
I'm convinced that most older surfers would rather stick with a "mainstream" board even tho its not working for them and they're not getting many waves, than to try something as different as my shapes. Which is fine, more waves for me. So while people will comment that my boards seem to work for me, I have tried to loan them out several times to no avail.
There is a bit of a learning curve, or adapting curve, with these high volume boards, at least there was for me. Its not a huge transition, but yeah there's probably gonna be a few kooky moves in the process. But I'm a little skeptical about people's comments that "thin rails are high performance", and "thick rails are clunky", since I have noted very few people are willing to ride a board with thick rails, so what do they really know? Just parroting words.
I think thick rails can work well if the overall design is working well. They ride a bit different, you have to turn off the tail more, but that's do-able, just have to get used to it. These boards are not longboards, but I think they're easier to adapt to if you just look at them as a performance longboard, and go from there.
All of this is in the context of my goals, and in no way am I a "thick rail" advocate per se, the thicker rails are merely the inevitable result of adding more volume via thickness in order to make an "old guy" board easier to get around on, and easier to catch waves with. I did push that envelope beyond what anybody else around my surf area is doing, although I think Joe Blair is on the same page, and his shapes (as seen on his website) have been an inspiration for me.
Overall I'm feeling pretty good about this journey, and the risks I've taken in designing something outside the box. So far I am the only person willing to give my own designs a go, but I'm pretty stoked on them and happy to be getting waves on the crowded days. I haven't "mastered" these boards, I feel like I'm still learning how to surf them, but I'm getting waves and having fun. Which was my goal, because I was sick of paddling out on crowded days and NOT getting waves and NOT having fun! That's what began this journey for me.
So this is my thinking at this point: older guys wanting to ride a higher performance board will paddle out on a mainstream shape and get very few waves, and be frustrated, while I paddle out on my oversized and too thick boards with too thick rails, and get lots of waves and have a blast. I'm not advancing the sport, just making the stoke more accessible in my senior years. Not a very sexy goal, clearly most people do not even consider it worth discussing, but its a goal that's very dear to my heart - hah!
So my goals were modest, and my accomplishments very basic, if somewhat elusive. I'm not pushing any performance envelope except my own, a 60 year old guy who just wants to surf with the kids and have as much fun as they're having.
BTW I finally finished up the ding repairs on the 8-8 Matty quad, hopefully get that back in the water soon too. Thanks to any and all who are still following this thread!
you dont need a bunch of replies to be appreciated,
you're advancing the stoke levels (therefore the sport) if not the performance.
But seriously, my level of performence at 40 is not the same as the best of the kids in my surf excellence classes at school but i can surf rings around a few of them, but what will make me even happier will be traing the little buggers with advice and excercise to the point when they all overtake me.
You keep me stoked, and make me jealous, (can never get my fiance to take pics)....
Yes, sorry about that. I have been changing up a bit, as always. Lately I have been riding my Banana Boat, my Wing Squad, my 8-8 performance longboard, my 8-4 single fin mini-glider, my 7-2 Gordita, my 9' glider with new sidebites, and my 7-4 thruster, ha!
From the beginning of this thread, I have been trying to focus on what makes a performance board for an older (I'm now 60) surfer. I was hoping to have an ongoing discussion, but it turns out no one is really as focused on it as I am, or they just pursue it privately. I suspect that not a lot of people who post here are really into surfboard design, or discussing surfboard design, or discussing how different tweaks can modify a design.
I suppose there could be a lot of reasons for that. Surfboard design is not an exact science, so its largely subjective. With so little agreed upon as "fact", your own ideas are just that, and hence, subject to attack, ridicule, disagreement, etc. And some guys feel that they have a special secret sauce, as discussed, some hard-earned design secrets, which they are not inclined to share. Because for one thing, then they're not "secret sauce" anymore, so where's the glamour in that?
Another thing I've touched on is that some guys just ride longboards as they get older. And some guys are good enough they still ride full on shortboards, like Hide (Hee-Day), 60 years old on his 5-10 Roberts.
I'm sorry Mattwho thought I lost faith in his 8-8 performance longboard, the thing goes like a rocket sled on rails and I love it! But what I meant was, I don't have good longboarding skills, you know like cross-stepping, nose-riding, drop knee turns, and the like. I admire the heck out of guys that ride like that, but I never rode longboards until recently, and don't have those skills. Here is a picture of me riding a 9' longboard, I am having fun, but you can see I'm not riding it like a longboard stylist would, I'm standing in the middle and trimming.
So I like longboarding, and I think I'm getting a little better as I go, but am ever pursuing other types of board shapes that can be ridden more like a shortboard. When the waves are a little bigger, I feel more comfortable on a board that's a bit shorter than a longboard, a bit more rocker , and with a more pulled in nose. But now that I have sidebites on my glider, I'm hoping to get it out in some head high surf and see how I like it. It is a heavy board, because it's made with US Blanks Classic foam.
Anyway, I have succeeded in my quest, to some extent, but I feel there is still much room for exploration / experimentation / learning. I learned with my Banana Boat and my Wing Squad that thick boards do not have to be logs, they can be turned and get around on a wave face, you don't need a thin rail as much as some people think. But they take some getting used to, its almost like you have to adjust your surfing to them, before they start to be fun.
This is subjective, like I say, but I hear a lot of negativity about thick boards and thick rails, and just didn't find them to be as poor performers as some would have you believe. I built thick boards that ride well (for me), catch waves good, take late drops, and are good fun. I have many times paddled out into a crowded lineup, and gotten good waves, when other older guys who I suspect are probably better surfers than me, are not getting waves and just being frustrated.
Think about this: the video of Stretch I posted shows his Nathan Fletcher Mavericks gun, and it is fully 4 3/4" thick! Not saying that board is the do-all be-all, but Stretch is no dummy and he wouldn't be building thick boards for a pro like Nathan if he didn't think they could be viable. Just sayin'. Like I say, its all subjective, take from this, or from Stretch, what you will.
Anyway, so as of this week I'm onto my 7-4 thruster. Its a midlength, of course, with a wide tail and a domed deck, so its thick in the middle, I think a little more than 3", but thin at the rails, and pretty foiled at the nose and tail. Its one of my more "mainstream" board shapes, based loosely on the Stoker-V pictures Bruce put up, but with my own tweaks, like the domed deck, a little belly in the nose, etc.
My friend said he couldn't catch waves with it, but I'm puzzled. I thought I'd have a hard time coming off my 8 and 9 footers, but today I did just fine. Yeah I missed a couple I thought I had, but overall I definitely caught my quota, did better than I thought I would. I did not find it difficult to catch waves with. Will have to ride it for awhile to fully get the feel for it, and try to get comfortable in a variety of conditions.
At 7-4 I have to get into the waves a little later than my bigger boards, and with my slower popup (one of the biggest limitations you face as you age), there is a little less margin for error. But it was not a problem today, I'll see if it becomes one.
I thank those that have followed this thread, and those that have contributed. I think our learning accelerates when we share our ideas publicly, as long as we don't get derailed into arguments and pissing contests, etc., and that clearly hasn't been a problem with this thread.
Trying not to take this too far...
HPLB....
no LB skills required.
Just "grip it and rip it"
Oh, and trust her to get back under you....
Oh and know body will notice the "shuffle" up to the max trim spot (2ft back from the tip).
My thoughts?
Quiver idis...
I (in the day) liked mine all the same, as it is hard jumping from board to board.
Competition demands trust in your boards.
It can be done, jus'
a kin to
lots ladies to know....
I would rather be someone's shot of whiskey, than everyone's cup of tea.
www.mattysurfboards.com
Yes, absolutely! I was trying to clarify my comments were about regular longboards, not that rocket sled you made, that thing takes off like a slingshot, and turns easy, I had some great rides on that board and just want to get the dings fixed before I get back on it!
No more comments about my surfing style on the HPLB, until I get some quid pro quo on the stubby, haha! Maybe try it as a kneelo see what happens, if your team guys not interested?
I also agree about the problem with switching up shapes - as a rider! I'm in constant conflict between the rider, and the shaper / designer. The rider wants consistency and comfort, boards I know how they will react. But the shaper wants to try something way different, different tails, different rails, more fins, less fins, shorter, longer, thicker, thinner, it goes on and on!
As a board builder I've never been content just to copy other boards, I'll take inspiration from other boards, but have to add my own tweaks, and mix the recipe on the fly. So it turns out every board I make is a prototype - which has its good points and bad, for sure!
Team guy, Oceanside/Newport, Gave him one of mine to go.
He saw it (stubby), And was stoked. I'll press for reports
I understand,
in so many ways that is why we live and
search...
I would rather be someone's shot of whiskey, than everyone's cup of tea.
www.mattysurfboards.com
Hey Matty that's cool, looking forward to hearing something! If its a complete bust, maybe I can find something else you might enjoy? Will keep you updated on the 8-8 as I get some more time on it.
This week I'm working on getting the hang of the 7-4, its a challenge, I do feel a little shaky on it at times, especially on my popup, but I caught several fun little waves again today, so really can't complain. I'm thinking that with boards that have a wider nose, you have to be more up on the nose when you paddle into a wave, and really push that nose down into the wave as you take off, and maybe that was Rich's problem, he was further back like he's used to on his standard shortboard shape. Cuz I just can't see otherwise how he found it harder to catch waves with than a shortboard.
Funny LTM, my mind works the same. When I finished my Wing Squad, I looked at it and thought "I blew it - the rails are too thick, its not gonna work." Then when I tried it, I was pleasantly surprised, the rails were not an issue. It turns good too, I'm sure a better surfer could turn it better, but I'm able to step back and swing it around just fine when I try, most the time I'm just headed down the line. I had a few waves where they sectioned out ahead of me and I thought OK nowhere to go forward, so I hit the skids and it wrapped right around and headed the other way, kinda surprised me. I'm thinking of a twin fin version, but just a little smaller, thinner, narrower, for my next board.
Years ago I had a twin fin fish, loved that board. For now I'm just experimenting by trying different fin setups.
The paint on the wing squad was not really very transparent when it was finished, it was thin but I put several thin coats. The whole board was brush painted (I may have used a foam roller for some of it, don't remember) on the foam, and it worked out fine, looks good, you can't tell it wasn't sprayed.
I've had several good sessions on my Wing Squad lately, the one with "too thick" rails, confirming (to my mind anyway) that I'm on to something here. I've also had a few comments regarding how easy I get around and how easy I catch waves, and even a comment that I probably caught more waves than anybody else on one particular day. I'm not real hyper, I tend to sit outside and wait for sets, so that's an accomplishment.
I'm convinced that most older surfers would rather stick with a "mainstream" board even tho its not working for them and they're not getting many waves, than to try something as different as my shapes. Which is fine, more waves for me. So while people will comment that my boards seem to work for me, I have tried to loan them out several times to no avail.
There is a bit of a learning curve, or adapting curve, with these high volume boards, at least there was for me. Its not a huge transition, but yeah there's probably gonna be a few kooky moves in the process. But I'm a little skeptical about people's comments that "thin rails are high performance", and "thick rails are clunky", since I have noted very few people are willing to ride a board with thick rails, so what do they really know? Just parroting words.
I think thick rails can work well if the overall design is working well. They ride a bit different, you have to turn off the tail more, but that's do-able, just have to get used to it. These boards are not longboards, but I think they're easier to adapt to if you just look at them as a performance longboard, and go from there.
All of this is in the context of my goals, and in no way am I a "thick rail" advocate per se, the thicker rails are merely the inevitable result of adding more volume via thickness in order to make an "old guy" board easier to get around on, and easier to catch waves with. I did push that envelope beyond what anybody else around my surf area is doing, although I think Joe Blair is on the same page, and his shapes (as seen on his website) have been an inspiration for me.
Overall I'm feeling pretty good about this journey, and the risks I've taken in designing something outside the box. So far I am the only person willing to give my own designs a go, but I'm pretty stoked on them and happy to be getting waves on the crowded days. I haven't "mastered" these boards, I feel like I'm still learning how to surf them, but I'm getting waves and having fun. Which was my goal, because I was sick of paddling out on crowded days and NOT getting waves and NOT having fun! That's what began this journey for me.
So this is my thinking at this point: older guys wanting to ride a higher performance board will paddle out on a mainstream shape and get very few waves, and be frustrated, while I paddle out on my oversized and too thick boards with too thick rails, and get lots of waves and have a blast. I'm not advancing the sport, just making the stoke more accessible in my senior years. Not a very sexy goal, clearly most people do not even consider it worth discussing, but its a goal that's very dear to my heart - hah!
So my goals were modest, and my accomplishments very basic, if somewhat elusive. I'm not pushing any performance envelope except my own, a 60 year old guy who just wants to surf with the kids and have as much fun as they're having.
BTW I finally finished up the ding repairs on the 8-8 Matty quad, hopefully get that back in the water soon too. Thanks to any and all who are still following this thread!
LA Surfpix-087a.jpg
LA Surfpix-109a.jpg
LA Surfpix-098a.jpg
LA Surfpix-010a.jpg
LA Surfpix-013a.jpg
LA Surfpix-101a.jpg
you dont need a bunch of replies to be appreciated,
you're advancing the stoke levels (therefore the sport) if not the performance.
But seriously, my level of performence at 40 is not the same as the best of the kids in my surf excellence classes at school but i can surf rings around a few of them, but what will make me even happier will be traing the little buggers with advice and excercise to the point when they all overtake me.
You keep me stoked, and make me jealous, (can never get my fiance to take pics)....
YEW!!!!!!
@reclaim_surf formerly Skatement
(Adam) Sunshine Coast Queensland Australia
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