How to make diamond tail template

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Soulsurfer51's picture
Joined: 08/26/2016

Aloha shapers,

I would like to know there is any rules to shape the diamond tail. Is it an equilateral rectangle with hypotenuse equals to adjacent side of the triangle?

i would like to make a generic diamond tail template.

thanks for your answers.

Eric

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thrailkill's picture
Joined: 05/07/2004

Trust me when I tell you, there are no ''rules'' about diamond tails.      The ''diamond'' is a cosmetic embellishment, to a squaretail.      There is no performance, or hydrodynamic  advantage produced by it.        If you like the look, do it.     If you don't like the look, then don't do it.

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Bill Thrailkill SHAPER SINCE 1958
reverb's picture
Joined: 03/20/2004

...hello Bill, the idea behind this tail is to shortening (the feeling) the outline and to have a pivot point on wider tails.

I tell you that these work on smaller boards (under 6 4) with wider tails.

The points should be no less than 2 inches forward regarding the imaginary line 90º in the tip of the tail, but better more (for hot dogging surfing)

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thrailkill's picture
Joined: 05/07/2004

Reverb, please!     I'm well aware what some people THINK is going on.       I'm talking about what IS GOING ON.       I've been at this game, (shaping/designing surfboards) for sixty years, and I paid attention along the way.     I don't need to be schooled.     I'm content to ''Agree to Disagree'' with you, and any others.       I also don't believe in the Easter Bunny, or the Tooth Fairy either.         

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Bill Thrailkill SHAPER SINCE 1958
reverb's picture
Joined: 03/20/2004

...I am not trying to school you, but I do not see you riding sub 6ft boards with wider tails too.

I do not school anyone on 10ft guns, I do not live in front of that type of surf, so I listen to the ones that are in the known about them.

What really are gimmicks are those bat tails and similars; also all the supposed refinement that some boards have.

Minimum diamond tails or diamond tails on longboards etc are like you say.

I am not new in this thingy, not so old like you but I am trying hard to keep all these alive.

Your disagree about my point of view is good received by my side. I do not think that you are wrong; I am not wrong too. Besides the basics, there s plenty of empirical path in the surfboards design. I do not agree with some ways or schools too.

Lots to talk regarding this stuff.

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thrailkill's picture
Joined: 05/07/2004

reverb wrote:
,,,, but I do not see you riding sub 6ft boards with wider tails too.

Lots to talk regarding this stuff.

  Per the sub 6 foot comment.     In 1958, Ronald Patterson generously allowed me to ride the 5 foot long balsa ''Mini Simmons'' twin fin, at WindanSea, that had been created by Alan Nelson.    As a 17 yr old kid, that was pretty heady stuff.      Those guys were ''surf gods'', appearing in all the surf movies of the day.    Bud Brown, John Severson, Bruce Brown, Greg Noll, etc.      When I say, ''Been there done that'', I really have.     As to your comment about lots to talk about, ''You're right about that.''    That 5 foot Mini Simmons?     I did not like the experience.      It would be several more years, before I began to think outside the box.

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Bill Thrailkill SHAPER SINCE 1958
Soulsurfer51's picture
Joined: 08/26/2016

My board will be a mini simmons 4'10 with a wide tail 15 inches width. 

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Soulsurfer51's picture
Joined: 08/26/2016

Hi Bill, thanks so much for your feedback. According to you i can do on my own feeling the diamond tail for my mini simmons 4'10. Sounds good

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sharkcountry's picture
Joined: 03/25/2006

This is the kind of diamond tail I like. https://www.blendingcurves.com/outline-templates/alt-d

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mako224's picture
Joined: 12/26/2005

I've made several boards using that template.  Its a good one.

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newschoolblue's picture
Joined: 06/30/2004

@soulsurfer51: I don’t think many shapers would consider 15” a “wide” tail on a 4’10” mini Simmons.  They usually run at least an inch or three more than that.  

Best wishes.

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Soulsurfer51's picture
Joined: 08/26/2016

Aloha newshoolblue,

sorry i forgot to precise 15" wide was from the stringer to the tip of the rail. It is actually 30" wide tail.

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Li'l Smokey's picture
Joined: 11/10/2013

Hey check this... here is a photo of a diamond-tail paipo i made years ago! A guy I know was able to stand-up surf this one, remarkably said it went OK. 

I made this a diamond tail for the reasons you cited. I remember that I eyeballed the diamond by holding up a piece of dark sandpaper against the blank to help me envision the cut. The contrast makes it easier to see.

Gotta say this isnt the greatest riding paipo, but I don't think that has anyting to do with the tail...still looks very cool to me. It might be pretty close to what you're aiming to shape... this is about 4 foot nuthin' and almost 22 wide!

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Monkstar1's picture
Joined: 06/21/2004

Haha, classic. Not a single person answered his question. I'll give you a (bad) answer: eyeball it. Draw it out, cut it, glass it. 

*All comments from a backyard hack

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Li'l Smokey's picture
Joined: 11/10/2013

Excellent suggestion, Monkstar1!!! Words to live by.

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McDing's picture
Joined: 05/22/2004

Lotta Bullshit here.  Yes there is a formula and it is so simple a ten year old kid could do it.  Shape your blank to the point that you are now ready to turn the rail.  At this point I am usually working off a square tail template.  My most common measurement is one inch.  Use the bottom of the blank, it is flatter.  Measure one inch from the tail at the stringer.  Make a pencill mark.  Using you “shapers square” make a mark at the same distance on each rail.  With a straight edge draw a line from the marks at the rail to the tip of the stringer.  With a hand saw remove the foam.  You can make a less exaggerated Diamond tTail by shortening the distance to say 1/2” .  Or exagerate by increasing the distance.  You can also use this same method in reverse to make “Swallow Tails”.

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Huck's picture
Joined: 12/07/2009

A 30" tail on a 4' 10" board, wow!! - is this a stand-up paddle belly board???

just kidding

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bb30's picture
Joined: 05/08/2011

You measuring with a tape measure or a clear surfboard ez square???

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thrailkill's picture
Joined: 05/07/2004

bb30 wrote:

You measuring with a tape measure or a clear surfboard ez square???

Great insight, to frame that question.      Sounds like a novice, misreading/misunderstanding the measureing instrument.      A 15 inch tail will allow it to look more like a surfboard.

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Bill Thrailkill SHAPER SINCE 1958
McDing's picture
Joined: 05/22/2004

Man how flocked is this??  If I had just listened to the Resident “Surf&shape” gods here at Sways I could have saved myself alot of R&D.  And; all my clients would be riding “broomtails,broomsticks or whatever they are.  They might be pretty cool.  I don’t know tho as the “inventor” has never posted a pic or even a pencil drawing on a napkin.  So I haven’t got a clue what this industry wide design looks like.  Woe is me and my Diamond Tails.

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McDing's picture
Joined: 05/22/2004

Disfunctuonal??

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McDing's picture
Joined: 05/22/2004

Damn and all those aesthetically pleasing, but disfunctional longboards.  Shheeet

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McDing's picture
Joined: 05/22/2004

Imagine what a “Pig” with a “broomstick” stuck up it’s ass would look like??  Well it wouldn’t look anything like this ;  Rounded Diamond —9 footer.

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McDing's picture
Joined: 05/22/2004

Flock!   And what about those Semi-Guns?  Shoulda listened to Bill T.

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thrailkill's picture
Joined: 05/07/2004

McDing wrote:

  Shoulda listened to Bill T.

Yes, you would have been well served, to have done so.

You also would have been spared, the display of your ignorance, at the top of your voice.

IGNORANCE: def,  Lacking knowledge, information, understanding or awareness, about a particular thing.

You might also consider stepping away from the Bong, or perhaps restarting your medication.

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Bill Thrailkill SHAPER SINCE 1958
Huck's picture
Joined: 12/07/2009

.

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Surfer O's picture
Joined: 06/05/2014

I'm going to post my opinion here.  Diamond Tails are freaking SWEEETTTT.  I cant comment on their performance but I do know that they look effing cool.  One day I will do my best to build 2 identical boards.  One with diamond tail and one without.  Just because I want to see for myself if I feel a difference in performance. Long live the diamond!

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Li'l Smokey's picture
Joined: 11/10/2013

I also love the look, so I did just that! I have a 8'1" rounded pin that I just love, and am nearly finished with it's diamond tail companion board!!! I will let you know what I think after I ride them both on the same waves!

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Monkstar1's picture
Joined: 06/21/2004

Those fins are way too organized for me.

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Surfer O's picture
Joined: 06/05/2014

Nice work Lil Smokey.  Those boards look awesoome!  I like how surfboards also appear to be taking over your living areas.  I have the same thing going on haha.  

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resinhead's picture
Joined: 03/18/2004

With all due respect here. Surfboard building 60 years ago was like saying cars were better in the 50s than the 2018.... It's bull shit. We have gotten way past the classic line for selling surfboards.  Rail,design, rocker, fin, fin placement, computers... Love it,or not, we are making extremely more refined shapes etc., yes this was all built on the backs of the pioneers, but to,say a 1959 Simmons balsa 5-10 diamond tail has  the same attributes, as anything designed in the past 15 years is preposterous.  I thought we were beyond this hubbub.   Thank god for technology... And the tri fin!

BOOM

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thrailkill's picture
Joined: 05/07/2004

Tri-Fins, are so 1964.       That was when I did my first one.

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Bill Thrailkill SHAPER SINCE 1958
McDing's picture
Joined: 05/22/2004

Now that brought not just a smile to my face but a twisted sinister grin as well.  Were the fins all next to each other in the center of the board or were they all in a row down the stringer?   Got a pic?

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McDing's picture
Joined: 05/22/2004

Well spoken!  Obviously the words of a well balanced individual both mentally and emotionally.  An individual who remembers the past, but prefers not to live in it.   In reference to resinhead’s balanced and realistic comments.  Certainly not a reference to Your swelled head Bill.  You can call me ignorant if you want, but I’d rather be ignorant than a Pompous Asshole.

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thrailkill's picture
Joined: 05/07/2004

McDing wrote:

Well spoken!  Obviously the words of a well balanced individual both mentally and emotionally.  An individual who remembers the past, but prefers not to live in it.

On the contrary, it appears to be the words of an unbalanced, insecure,  self absorbed, wannabe ''surf god''  who talks to himself, to mask the depth of his ignorance of surfboard design history.      Comical.

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Bill Thrailkill SHAPER SINCE 1958
johnmellor's picture
Joined: 03/17/2004

That looks like a properly outfitted living room!  (In reply to #28)

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bb30's picture
Joined: 05/08/2011

no shapping rack or angy neighbors knocking at door in regards to PE resin smell

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bb30's picture
Joined: 05/08/2011

Why a template? Da stringer is center and go to rail symetricly. Though I can't appreciate the difference in a tail shape, I do however appreciate the wave quality as the biggest factor. Also why stop at a diamond tail? Have a diamond nose to for wave entry with the tail doing the talking on wave exit.

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McDing's picture
Joined: 05/22/2004

Sweeeet!

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petec's picture
Joined: 03/18/2004

I just noticed this quote at the bottom of somebody's post: "...Swaylocks.com, a strange message board filled with a cast of eccentric, underground surfboard builders..." - Slide Magazine

As a "cast member" this quote made me feel privileged to be part of that group.  I love the discussions like this diamond tail thing, reminds me of the good old days around here and shows outsiders that eccentrics like us just can't be reasoned with. 

If it's not a game-changer functionally, then aesthetically pleasing is just a matter of style which interprets into a selling feature.  To understand the difference between artistic and functional (on surfboards), you can either build one and see for yourself or ask the eccentric underground.  You will definitely not get the answer you expected but may learn something bigger.  

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McDing's picture
Joined: 05/22/2004

True.   The only difference being that these days we have self appointed “Thought Police” ;   Who send stimulating and thought provoking threads like this to the garbage bin known as Errors and Bugs.     McDing—-  Shaper since it was too late.

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Monkstar1's picture
Joined: 06/21/2004

I don't get it. I feel like the more I read this site, the more confused I get. Wouldn't a diamond tail change the length of the rail compared to a square tail? Wouldn't length of rail effect riding characteristics?

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petec's picture
Joined: 03/18/2004

Not sure if this answer is going to help since the thread has been moved.  Let's back up a bit on tail design to better understand where the diamond fits in.  Any tail that has some resemblance of a corner is going to release water there instead of along the curve of a pin.  On a generic short pin, the rail will normally continue to taper around the curve to the stringer.  In any tail with a corner, the rail will only taper to that point.  So, the "effective" rail length of the board is really from the nose to that corner.  It is confusing if an overall length is established then the diamond shape is laid in from there since the effective rail length is now shortened.  The 1-1/2 - 2" projection of the diamond tip is not going to have much effect on floatation or volume, so designwise I would call the effective length of the board nose to tail corner and let the actual overall length be plus the projection of the tip.  Or simply handle it as if it were a plain square tail and add the diamond tip to the length.

On the original #1 post of this thread, if the guy would have just ordered his cut as a square tail then put the diamond in himself that bunged up corner would have been cut away.  

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McDing's picture
Joined: 05/22/2004

What’s funny about all this is I have (read carefully) NEVER said that I was an EXPERT in Surfboard Design.  I have stated many times tho what I like and what I don’t like.    In reference to the old style Pigs and the way they rode, I merely stated my first hand experience at having ridden them many years ago.  I never want to go back to riding those dogs er pigs.  I leave design theory to dinosaurs and monkeys.  Good luck with the monarchy.  Long may you reign.  Oh and liking someone and respecting them is not the same as ass Kissing.  Lowel. Shaper since it was too late.

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resinhead's picture
Joined: 03/18/2004

I'm certain the trifins  built in 1960, were just as refined as the one built in 1990+.   What I was trying to convey is that surfboard design has evolved its design, getting stuck in the past is like driving a vintage car for your daily driver.  "gee why is everybody driving on the freeway so fast?"  "gee why can't I take turns like that car".   remember when your car used to get flats on a weekly basis?.... When was the last time you got a flat?.... You just experienced progress!!  But once again I digress.

Every time an old surfboard shape comes back around they get more and more refined. To think that old down rail straight 3 finned board is the same as a current board would be like comparing a 1968 Dodge hemi Charger to a new 2018  Dodge demon charger..... Yet it has 4 wheels, and it burns gas too.   But that's about the only similarities. and again I digress.

I have yet to see a true 1960's style long board in a current surf shop.  Every one I have seen has more modern rails and rocker.... Even the D fin ones.

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McDing's picture
Joined: 05/22/2004

Absolutely!  You and I have had  fun jousting on Sways over the years and unlike others there has never been any personal friction.  As I stated well balanced and realistic comments.  I didn’t invent anything in 1964.  But, was sure having fun in my “ignorance”.

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McDing's picture
Joined: 05/22/2004

To be clear;  you are an IDIOT.  Haha!

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Li'l Smokey's picture
Joined: 11/10/2013

Wait. What? What just happened here?

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EmilyGims's picture
Joined: 01/29/2020

I'm confused as well, perhaps some posts were removed for some reason and now it all looks weird?

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