Hi,
First time shaper and poster here, not sure if this is the correct place to be honest…
Just wondering if anyone has ever used wax in styrene for hot coat on an epoxy fibreglass, and if it works? From looking online I get the feeling it is not going to bond, but wanted to check here as I already have some (5% solution).
Thanks
Styrene wax solution is usually used with Poly lam resin to create sanding resin. The ever secretive Additive F is usually recommended for Epoxy. It’s been my experience that Additive F primarily consists of Xylene and Parafin wax. I would advise against experiments out of the norm. That is unless your willing to accept the consequences.
I did it by mistake, bottle without label for add F and wax in styrene. I was a bit worried but it work, then i found that some pro used it too as epoxy additive for sanded coat. As styrene evaporate it make wax rise surface protect it from air avoiding blush reaction. Wax in solution in most solvent works, here seller make one with wax in toluen, Xylen is probably best solvent for epoxy… Most modern VOC free epoxy used for surfboard production don’t blush in normal working weather condition so those additives aren’t necessary.
Thanks, that’s helpful to know that it can work.
I think I’m going to test it on an off cut first!
Since epoxy resin is not air-inhibitied, why would you even need/want wax+styrene?
Accurate mix on the epoxy and enough time and temp to cure properly before sanding will take you pretty far.
I have used Add F with RR KK epoxy. Works great as long as it still in solution (not evaporated or settled out). I prefer nothing followed by a little solvent. Temps need to be ‘labratory’ or warmer than 75 F / 23 C.
Yeah unlabeled bottles around a shop can be a dilemma. The usual result is thinking something was MEK and then it never sets up.
HAH! Yeah. Spend a little time in a full on chem lab where using from an unlabeled bottle can literally “blow up in your face” and you find yourself labeling everything, even in your house. DOG…CAT…WIFE…
Greg Loehr posted way back that they were even using it on laminations so I doubt if wax is in there. Wax and fill coats don’t usually get along…
Add F msds: xylène and wax in solution.
AddF purpose is first to prevent blush, wax on surface avoid possible reaction of hardener with air moisture that break adhesion of new coat and live a difficult to sand surface.
Secondary when lam with a small amounts of addF, wax, that rise the surface is “diluted” by over layer of resin allowing adhesion of new layer reducing need of surface prep for adhesion. Epoxy is a good glue only need clean no glossy surface.
By adding solvent to resin addF increase surface tension that reduce contamination problems (fish eyes…) and allow a better flow of resin.
This is one of the bane’s of my existence managing a small industrial coating shop. People just love to pour off a little of whatever they’re working with into a small can or mason jar.
One little tip: after you label your container with a marker or whatever, cover the writing with a piece of clear tape.
And please, please, please don’t just label the lid.
Because some guys aren’t like you and me; They won’t or can’t afford to let it cure a day or two before they sand it. Some Epoxies stay tacky longer . I use Dura-Clear quite a bit and it won’t sand the same day without an additive. It works for me because I usually let them set a couple of days in a heated room. I have one customer that absolutely won’t use it because he can’t sand it the same day. So he is strictly Resin Research. I think that is why RR is so successful amongst board builders. Greg Loehr is a board builder and he dialed RR into the Surfboard construction process.
Haha. Yes everyone here on Sways will be sure to do both going forward.
Got this info from bert berger. Of FireWire fame.
Some correct info, a few myths… wax in xylene ( additive F ) , wax in toluene, wax in styrene all works well with epoxy resins, the active ingredient is the wax, which floats to the surface and breaks the tension allowing the resin to flow out clean and flat with no separations or fish eyes… Xylene has the ability to hold more wax in solution at lower temperatures, hence 1 to 3% is needed as opposed to wax in Styrene at 3 to 5%… your hardener speed and temperature will determine what the ideal ratio is… The wax needs time to float to the surface, slow resin needs less, fast resin needs more… While it is true that epoxy resin doesn’t need wax, the planets need to align to get good results without it, it will make your life so much easier… it does two primary functions, a surfacing agent allowing the resin to sit flat and clean with no imperfections, second, it shortens or breaks the polymer chains, while this does in fact weaken the resin slightly, you don’t really need strength in the filler coat… without a wax coat sanding would be started with 60 to 80 grit and a slower sanding speed to make life easier, throwing off larger chunks of resin, a wax coat allows you to start with 120 to 150 grit, using a little more speed and throwing off finer dust…
I forgot to add, the wax is the surfacing agent, the solvent breaks the polymer chains, so Xylene at lower concentrations will leave the resin slightly stronger, Styrene easier to sand… unless your doing wet on wet, if your lam is fully cured, give it a light sand so your hot coat bonds well… 240 soft pad, or even better by hand, scotch brite works even better, scratches the surface well without damaging the weave…
Amen… This is exactly what i learn and practice.
Some precision about solvent and epoxy :
epoxy tend to retain solvent wich embedded in long molecular chain while curing. That give more elongation to break but reduce stiffness and fatigue strengh. Low évaporation solvent like heavy alcohol, mostly benzilique alcool, are used in formulation of surfboard resin for this, more flexible resin. Polypropylene or ethylen glycol too.
In thin layers light fast evaporation solvent can evaporate from resin, even more if not used too much and resin take long to cure. Some wood board builder use acetone or alcohol for liquefy imprégnation layers. When evaporate solvent let surface less “waterproof” and “harder” and if you had wax it’ll sand more easier more like poly.
Mc Ding is right additive F is make to improve process: allowing faster build with less environmental sensibility of resin while working at the price of slightly lower properties and used of a hazardous solvent.
Chemical progress allow resin improvement in other way. Using a hot box curing and more dead time is an effective way to take care of environmental reaction of resin (lower blush risk) increase surface hardness and even more improve mechanical properties…
NEVER sand nor fully cured epoxy resin without full body protection and vacuum sanding. It’s first way of sensitization…
wax in xylene ( additive F),
Where can i buy this stuff just messing about making own fins using wood, carbon, glass, just the epoxy leaving a tacky finish even though fast hardener and eeather not too bad. Any ideas please? Gower area
Not sure where gower is? Any fibreglass surfboard materials supplier will have the wax in styrene.
I know where Wales is dude.
i thought you a dumb dude. Apparently that stuff only available in US only poly wax strene here. So i got this tacky finish to my fins. Can i just layer more glass and epoxy on top or do i need to get rid of the tacky layer first? Its the weather here not the best for epoxy but thats what i got now. I dont want sand just yet if possible got a carbon twill i dont want to damage. Thanks for getting back me, appreciate it!!
Ok, so i found the answer it’s pretty easy in the end, though I was gonna have to start again
seems to have done the job. You just got to keep scrubbing hard as the brillo sticks to the amine so keep squirting the soap and scrubbing and eventually you get a nice finish
Finished off with heat treatment, top level of SS steamer (no water of course) but hardens the epoxy nicely, Ready for quick sand and last glass and hot coat. Thanks guys for giving me some info.