First Board Pre-Cut Checklist - Anything look/sound way off?

General Discussion
1

Long-time-lurker, first-time-poster here.  I am stoked to be shaping my first board and wanted to run my plan by those with more experience to see if any of my dimensions look way off.  I don’t expect my first board to be the best, but I’m trying not to make a door.

The goal is to emulate a Kane Garden “Classic Twin Keel” fish that my buddy had over 10 years ago.  It was the most fun board I have ever ridden to this date.  It was fast, loose, and easy to paddle.  If memory serves correctly, it was a 5’6”, although it is possible it was 5’8”.  My aim is to replicate that fast and loose ride and easy paddling.  At the time I was 6’3”, 195lbs and had been in water polo year-round for 6 years.  Now I am 6’4”, 225lbs and my paddling stamina could use a little work. 

In doing my homework on the KG board I found the following information:

  • 5’10” / 16.5” Nose / 21.25” Width / 16.75” Tail / 2.55” Thickness
  • 5” swallow tail and 8.5” wide at tail block
  • Single concave entry into split double with vee of the tail

In looking at a picture of the bottom view of a 5’10”, with a grid view overlayed, it looked like the widepoint was about 29” in from the nose, or 6” in front of dead center.  

 

My Plan:

In drawing the full outline at 5’10” I was thinking that the board looked a little small so I scaled the board up, proportionately, to 6’ / 17” Nose / 22” Width (at 30” from nose) / 17.25” Tail / 8 1/8” tip-to-tip with 5 1/8” deep crack.  I am doing the thickness at 3”.

I have not been able to get the rocker details for the KG but I have been foraging through the archives for the last two weeks and it looks like the generally accepted fish rocker is about 3.5”nose/1.5”tail for retro and more towards 4”nose/ 2”tail for modern/performance fish?  I am thinking of splitting the difference at 3 ¾”nose/1 ¾”tail for this first board.  I live in Ventura about half a mile from C-Street (point break) that can get a fair bit of onshore wind, so that’s where I go most often. Does this rail rocker sound way off or reasonable?  

I want to experiment with fin placement/orientation and was looking at the adjustable fin systems but the limited adjustability doesn’t seem worth the price of admission.  Reading a thread about removing glassed-on’s encouraged me to just go that route and edit as desired.  This just means I get extra practice at glassing!  Initially I’d like to try and setup the fins as similar as possible to the KG fish.  I know they are double foiled, they have some toe and a slight cant….but that’s it. Since I want to play around with fin placements I was thinking of starting with trailing edge 2” up from crack (7 1/8” from tips”) and 1 1/4” from rail, I seem to read good things about 1/8” – ¼” toe and 4 degree cant being a fast and loose combo so I am considering this.  If anyone has info or templaye on these fins, beyond being double foiled, that would be awesome.

 

I have tried to thrown in some pictures of the the KG fish I want to replicate.  The green one is a 5’10" , no clue what size the black one is.

 

Thanks!!

 

 

 

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Are you planning a traditional, hand-shaped PU blank with PE resin and glass or ???

 

3

Hi J, yeah I am looking to do PU blank and PE resin.  I still have research to do in choosing glass schedule, though from intital reading S glass or Volan sound like the stronger glasses to use? 

4

Do not think too much on design or special features! If it is your first board, copy a board which comes close to what you want. Use standard values for all measures 1/4 inch more or less does not count at all (now, for your first board) Use the easiest ways to build and the most convenient materials.

I’m in wood, not into foam and I use epoxy not poly, but keep it as simple as possible, no fancy volan fishnet whatsoever cloth, no pinlines etc. I also would recommend to install standard finboxes or fin tabs, either fcs or futures, it does not matter; glass on fins may be a complication which you do not need now. Same with colour, go for one easy to mix colour, or leave it just white, ok, you may put a logo under the glass…

Why? Because the board will ride anyway, maybe worse, maybe better than a bought one, but it will, and you will feel a unknown sensation of riding your own board. This is the target you are heading for, not the board, but the feeling it creates in your head taking the first waves. 

The build itself will be challenge, even it is not that difficult, you will make mistakes, they are unavoidable in the first board(s). So keep it as simple as possible and whatever comes out, enjoy the ride. 

And after having felt the sensation, you are up to think about your second board, which will be a more special one…

5

Six oz bottom,  6&4 combo on the deck.  Plain E or Warp.  First board.  S and Volan will be too difficult for a beginner to do without problems…  Doesn’t take much research to know this is an “Industry Standard”.

6

I think the rocker you’re talking about and most of the dimensions will work out.    I’d personally widen the tail block a bit due to your stature.   You have sufficient stature to control a board with a bigger ass.    You can put more curve back into the rear quarter by moving the wide point back a little.   

7

 

I hope you do a better job foiling your fins, those are really badly foiled. They are almost entirely flat (big brown outside layer).

When goin with a symmetrical double foil, don’t toe them in too much or they’ll become draggy.

1-1.5 degrees should be enough for symmetric foils. You say 1/8" to 1/4", length is not a good way to measure angles, the angle will change if your fins get a longer base. You can use this calculator to calculate the angle: https://www.k4fins.com/fin-toe-angle-calculator/

If I’m not mistaken some set them even parallel.

8

Thanks for all the replies.

 

McDing, you are right that the “industry standard” layup is not at all hard to find. However with me not doing mass production with an emphasis on profits or benefiting from potential “manufactured obsolescence” I wanted to see if there would be a better route for me to go on my board. I am brand spankin’ knew to this and am excited to learn as much as I can about all the materials and processes. But I’m thinking Surfdude is on to something with the keep it simple and don’t overthink the first board.

 

Gdaddy, you bring up an interesting point about being able widen the tail block width at my size. This is something I had thought about but was hesitant to adjust because I don’t feel knowledgeable enough to alter the design and not make myself miss the mark for the few I’m chasing.  When I drew the full outline the tail block did look a little narrow with my foot size (12). I then made outlines with the tail at 10” wide and 12” wide. The 10” outline, with no other points adjusted in the outline, looked the most appealing to my eyes. I think I might follow this tip.

 

Hans, I didn’t even pay attention to the fin foil, but you are so right! I’m thinking the I’ll buy some fins to glass on and play around with on this first board. I completely appreciate what you said about not using length for measuring angles. I was very confused as to why it seems like a lot of people talk about toe in length. In my (inexperienced) mind measuring toe angle as degrees in relation to the stringer seems like the simplest/most consistent way to measure toe angles. 

 

My mind is blown by the seemingly infinite combination of all aspects of board and fin design! So cool! 

 

Thanks for all the help. Time to pick the right blank and get to work. 

 

 

9

Seconding the point about tail width. I’m 6’8" 215lbs. Narrow tailed boards look cool but can be hard to control for bigger taller guys. Took me 9 boards to figure that out. 

Same goes for real bladed out rails. Super foiled, narrow boards look awesome if you’re 5’8", 160 with size 8 feet. I built my second board with really cool thin rails, and whenever I tried to turn the rails would just sink sideways down into the wave and is stall instantly. Looked great in photos though. 

Think of it as an advantage: you can build a board with plenty of float and paddle power for your weight, but use your leverage from your height and bigger feet to really throw the thing around. You don’t have to sacrifice wave catching ability, but you’ll be able to do things once you’re up that someone with the same weight who’s not as tall would never be able to. 

10

Advantage or not, we still have to surf what we brought.  Which includes our stature and wherever our skillset is at the moment.   

 

 

11

I thought you may also appreciate advice from a fellow beginner, but one just a little bit further up this road from where you are now. I built my first board two years ago and had very high expectations. i thought that with my years of design school, years of building furniture, and 3d printing, I’d have a solid understanding materials, processes and design methodology. Certainly enough to shape a great first board! So I did exactly what you did, going very deep with the measurements and comparing against a known board spec. I asked all the questions here, I got all the materials, and practiced before working the final blank. And I spent TONS of time on the details, making sure everything hit my close tolerances, removing every little scracth or dent on the foam, sanding way too much, etc. I probably spent 40 hours total on this board.

The result was a board that floated me but didn’t surf vey well. But I was proud that I could stand up on something I created. So I made some observations and built a second one a few months later. Much better, but still didnt manuever like boards from local pro shapers. But I pushed on, building three more. Board number 5 is good enough that I have no plans of ever paying someone else for a board again. :).

Two months ago I was sitting around looking at board 1, hung up on my wall because i had finally accpeted that it’s difficult to ride. I thought of just giving it away to a begginner to ride in white water. But I put i on the rack and thought long and hard about why it didnt work. I took out a pencil and made some measurements, drew up some plans, and thought what have i got to lose? Maybe I can learn something here. Luckily, I had just enough extra foam throughout to cut a rocker and some new rails. So, I tore the entire bottom off, removed the fin box, and did just that. Replaced the box and reglassed it. Now it’s one of my favorite boards. Feeling confident, I looked at board number 2, a 9’6" longboard. I decided that the thickness was way off, with too much up front. I could feel it when riding weak waves. And i could get by with a 9’0". So I peeled the top half of the top off, chopped 6" off the nose, and re-shaped it. I like it much better now and learned a few things from that process.

Or, in fewer words, don’t take the first one too seriously. Get it in the ballpark and then try it out. Treat it as a reference point for your next iteration 

12

Calling it an “industry Standard” does not mean it’s bad, shoddy or substandard.  I do lots of 6/4 and double six decks.  They hold up great. I do a 6/4 with Vector Net in between as well.  Never any serious denting.  When I say “Industry Standard” ;  I mean unless you spec something otherwise, 6/4 & 6/6 is what you will get were you to take your imperfect blank to any quality glass shop whose employees do this shit for a living. Those combinations over the years have proven to be the most practical for strength to weight and durability.  Also the most cost effective and least time consuming to lay up.  It’s the 4oz and double 4oz with Epoxy liteweight shit that don’t get it.  Looks like Swiss Cheese or the moon a month later.  “Industry Standard” simply means;  It is proven.   Do whatever you want.  You got all the internet experience you need.