I know that the topic of a Mini Simmons has been discussed many times and I’ve spent a lot of time reading through many of the discussions. I’ve also used the search fuction judiciously but haven’t been able to find the info/guidance I’m looking for. I’m just starting my first MS and have the outline as well as the rocker that I want finished on the bottom. I will have the thickness at 2-7/8" but I am unsure how to foil that thickness down at the ends. Particularly at the tail.
What kind of thickness do people tend to have in the back? Also, What kind of rails do these boards typically have? I understand that they have a hull-ish type of bottom on the front 1/3 of the board and a flat midsection. I’ll put a little concave running out the back between the keels. I’ve never put my hands on a Mini Simmons and am only doing this based on what I have been able to look up on the web and read. I just can’t find any details on how the rails are done as well as how the thickness is distributed. Are any of you kind experts out there able to help me out a bit?
This board will be 5-11 x 19 x 22.5 x 18…5T x 2-7/8. 13.5" at the tailblock. I’m 6’, 200#'s average surfer, good paddler.
Fat and chunky rails, a fat and chunky tail block, and a scooped deck in the nose to thin the volume out (do that last, after you do the bottom). The original designs also ran really thick - in excess of 3" even for the shortest lengths.
I will volunteer on an unsolicited basis the opinion that a 5-11 length is too big for someone your size. The whole idea behind the design is to run them short and wide and basically overpower the fat ass by brute force. Unless you also bump the widths out the longer length otherwise distorts the “golden rule” ratios of the design and it defnitely adds more curve to the rail line than intended. You can easily do it in a 5-8 length and really, a 5-6 length is still going to get you somewhere in the 42L-44L range, which is plenty for a 200# surfer of your height.
Widths on a 5-4 length were running 19" in the nose, 22.5" at the wide point (3-4 inches behind center), 20" or so at the tail and 17+" at the tailblock. The kids were literally putting their rear foot right at the end of the tail block on order to turn those boards because they were so wide. That wide planing surface was the thing.
The point being, no matter what length and volume you’re shooting for, try to retain the width/length ratio from the original design. Figure out what you need to paddle and work backwards from there. The widths and wetted surface area of the bottom will be doing a lot of the work for you.
Take my advice with a grain of salt as I’ve only shaped a dozen or so boards:
I’m shaping a mini simmons as we speak. Your foil (how your thickness flows from your nose to tail) is going to be mostly dictated by the overall thickness of your board. Typically MiniSimmons have an S-deck where the profile view (from the side) looks a bit like an S along the deck rocker. This is because mini’s are very short and flat so in order to properly foil, your deck rocker ends up with this curve.
The simmons I’m making is 5’8" x 22 1/2" x 2 5/8". I originally wanted to thin it out quite a bit, but ended up with a ~2" thick tail (1’ up) and 1.75" nose (1’up). If I go any thinner I’m afraid I will negatively impact the overall rail flow (any lumps or flat spots in the rail flow are undersirable in my opinion) which is set when you foil your board. I hope that makes sense. You set your bottom rocker, foil the deck, and the resultant is your rail line prior to adding rail bands. You have to balance thinning out your foil without disrupting rail flow too aggresively. This is why your overall thickness (thickest point) will dictate how thick/thin your nose/tail can be as you can only be so aggressive without disrupting the overall flow of the board.
As I see it, a minisimmons is essentially a surfboard with the nose and tail chopped off so it’s alright to leave it a bit chunkier at the 1’N and 1’T than normal. I would recommend that you try to thin both out a bit in the last 6" as it helps with glassing, asthetics, and manuverability.
As a general rule, I try to make balanced boards by adjusting nose/tail thickness based on nose/tail width. So because my nose is a little wider than my tail, I make it a little thinner and the tail a little thicker so the overall volume distribution is about equal.
I plan on doing higher performance rails rails in the front (soft using 1-1/8" rail mark off the deck) that flow into hard down rails in the tail with the hard edge fading ~3" in front of the keel fins. I imagine traditional simmons have closer to 50:50 rails in the front which would be a bit more forgiving but less manuverable. My goal is to add a bit of manueverability to a board that is already inherintly forgiving. I believe most modern minisims are designed similiarly.
I hope this helps. Again - I’m just a begginer but I think my principles might be helpful.
Thanks gdaddy. I figured they would be full rails a opposed to knifey but didn’t quite know how much to taper the thickness down from the middle to the tail. I have the bottom done and am starting the deck to get it to final thickness before doing the rails and was just thinking ahead. I hear you on the traditional Mini Simmons dimensions, I was just making a few changes to the general design to maybe get a little more performance out of it but keep the overall feel of it and pull in the tail a touch and give it some more shape to improve the turning… ala a Bing Puck or Christenson Ocean Racer. I figured by doing that it might be better if I added a few inches to it. It may work, it may not.
Thanks Pretzel. I’m in line with your thinking on the board. I was thinking up front it would have close to a 50/50 rail and then stiffen them up as it went back to a hard edge just in front of the fins. My big sticking point was how thick to leave the tail. I finished getting the bottom where I want it and the outline is done with square edges and will work on the deck tomorrow or friday if I get a chance. I suppose these questions will work themseves out a bit once I start on the deck, I’d just hate to go too far on thinning it out somewhere so was just trying to get a ballpark idea of what people have done with theirs so far. I was planning on an S-deck but not go crazy with it. I’ll start by leaving the nose and tail at 2" to start and will adjust it if I feel they need it once it’s closer to the final shape. I agree wholeheartedly that there should be no lumps or flat spots in the rails! Would love to see what you are making right now and will share pics of mine as it moves along.
I suppose I may be making something a little closer to a Liddle-style. Or something in between. I guess a lot of us use the Mini-Simmons as a generic term for this type of short, fat, thick small wave board. It would probably be more accurate as a Simmons-inspired shape I guess.
gdaddy… Agree 100%. I may have mispoke when I said I’m trying to get more performance out of the shape. I think easier to surf like you said is probably more accurate. Though they may go hand in hand here.
I’ve made a couple and I’ve used belly up front which creates a bit of an “up” pinched rail, to a full fat rail through the middle, to a down rail with the hard edge on bottom starting in front of the fins. I did a bit of an S deck with the scooped out nose up front. The tail is a chunky, it’s hard to foil out such a short thick board, this is on a 5’-8" x 23" x 3". The bottom has belly up front, to flat, to a pretty deep concaved vee through the back third of the board.
This thing works really well for me with that particular bottom and quad setup. I’m 210 lbs and when I make another one I’d make it a lot thinner and try to foil it out a bit more too, like I said it works really well but it’s waaaay to chunky even for me.
Right on Johnny! That’s pretty much what I had in mind for this, a little belly up front with bit of a piched rail easing into a downrail with a hard edge as it goes to the back. I just wasn’t sure what kind of thickness I should aim for on the tail and the nose with the S-deck. I was thinking 1.75" in the back and 1.5" up front. I’m sure it’ll sort itself out when I start foiling it. Do you recall what your thicknesses were?
I’m coming from 30 years of longboards and my head is having a hard time getting around the idea of something as short as 5-8" so I figured I’d add a couple inches and foil it out a little more. See how it goes…
Right on Johnny! That’s pretty much what I had in mind for this, a little belly up front with bit of a piched rail easing into a downrail with a hard edge as it goes to the back. I just wasn’t sure what kind of thickness I should aim for on the tail and the nose with the S-deck. I was thinking 1.75" in the back and 1.5" up front. I’m sure it’ll sort itself out when I start foiling it. Do you recall what your thicknesses were?
I’m coming from 30 years of longboards and my head is having a hard time getting around the idea of something as short as 5-8" so I figured I’d add a couple inches and foil it out a little more. See how it goes…
I’m not exactly sure but at the tail I’d say it’s around 2-3/8" at least, it’s pretty thick back there, I used a 6-10A blank to get the low rocker but that blank is a beast, super thick. Not sure what the nose is, I didn’t try to hit any particular numbers, just scooped the nose area out till it looked good.
I made a 7-0 simm hullish type board and would say that it’s closer to those liddle pics you posted as far as the S deck, rails and a thinner foil. That thing is super fast and really responsive, if I made another mini simmons I’d thin it out and refine it a lot more than my first one.
Made some changes to the outline and finished getting the rocker how I want it on the bottom. I started to lay out a rail band but now see that I have a little more work to do on the deck to get it right.
I think your template is looking pretty good for what you’re trying to do.
On a related note
This is a 2+1 hull in a 6-2 length. He runs the wide point closer to the center on these than on his longer singlefins. This board has a very different foil and bottom in the tail than your’s because it’s designed to run as a hull, not a keels. But there are otherwise some similarities in the template and bottom in the nose. One difference with the Simmons is that they usually run the wide point well behind center, the idea being to surf them off your rear foot. That’s what you’re going to be using that harder corner in your tail for, to get the distinct break when you turn.
The other thing that you might start giving some consideration to at this point is exactly what your stance is going to be and where your rear foot goes on this board. With the longer length it might work better as a split keel (speed dialer or similar) or other quad setup. And if you anticipate retaining that longboard stance you might also consider running your fin cluster a little further forward, closer to your rear foot. It’s harder to turn a fin cluster if you’re standing significantly forward of it. You have more leverage on the fins if you’re weighted directly above them. This is the number one problem novice and even some intermediate surfers have, trying to turn from too far forward of their fins.
Thanks gdaddy. I noticed that the MS outlines were centered more to the rear of the board and I have my widepoint right at the center. I’d rather turn it closer to the center of the board than have it be too rear-footed. I had originally thought of running some big single sided keel fins canted in a couple degrees and set a little further forward than typical on a true MS, but am tossing around the idea of a quad set up like you say.
Either a quad or a long keel will work on the board so that’s not really the question. The question is which will be better for you at your current skill level. It’s kind of like asking whether you want the board to fit your existing stye or do you want to adjust your style to fit that board.
One of the guys I shape (at 260#) for has an 8ft Simmons with the keels mounted in the traditional position. He can surf that board. I can’t. I’m not as big as he is and I’m not accustomed to turning a 10-11ft pig-type longboard off the very tail the way he does on his other boards. I’m much lighter than he is and I don’t longboard. I’d have a better shot at turning that board if it was set up as a quad with the cluster moved forward but it’s still way too much surface area for me to really feel comfortable trying to control.
If you look around I think you’ll find it more common for these boards to be set up with a quad than with regular keels or the moon keels of the original.
One of the criticisms of keels is that they’re harder to turn and less stable on your backside. That’s doubly true when they’re on a Simmons-type tail block.
