Stupid question I know, but here goes anyway. If you owned a Surf Shop and decided to carry Wetsuits; What are the most common sizes that you would carry? Men? And Women? Most common? M, L , LT, MT, XL, 2XL?? 2,4,6,etc.??
Not a stupid question at all. It’s decisions like this one that make you or break you. The difference between finishing up the season with enough money to restock the next year and having to take a second job washing dishes to pay your debts from being in the surf biz. And yes, I have seen that happen.
Disclaimer- I’m not in the biz any more. The latest stuff I’m not familiar with, Here follows a long discourse on what I ran into, say 1970-2010. Now, while I doubt it’s changed much, I can very easily be wrong.
Me, I would look at who is actually going to buy a suit from you instead of just using you to check sizes and ordering online. You want low prices ( last year’s suits from the manufacturer, for instance) , not high end. If you have a few really loyal customers who want really high end suits and insist on getting them from you, neat, order them as needed. Otherwise, cheap overlock suits that you can unload cheap and still make money.
You will, by the way, find that there are absolute pricks in the business, who will sell at a loss just to ruin your day.
And now, well, the wetsuit makers themselves, and any number of online discounters, in some cases the maker sells to the public online for pretty much what they give you for your wholesale price. . And sell to Discount Surfwear dot com for a fraction of wholesale to surf shops.
But I digress-
Sizes-
Kids sizes. Yep. The thing is, Mom comes in and she isn’t going to be bothered with looking around for a better price, she just wants to get something to shut the kid up. Not high end, push the fact that the kid will outgrow it by next year, she doesn’t want to spend a lot.
Men’s sizes - tough call. My experience is that you have people come in, family vacation and the wife ( maybe intentionally) didn’t pack his wetsuit. Something inexpensive. Go more towards a large short, for the 30+ and 40+ recreational surfer who actually has money. Somebody who claims ‘they live to surf’, they want easy credit terms, discounts and that so you wind up eating your profit margin.
Cute trick that Patagonia and some others have, they size big. Their ‘large’ wil be cut big, so somebody can squeeze into one of their larges when in somebody else’s suit it’'s an XL. It’s an ego thing.
Another thing- these are all made somewhere on the Pacific Rim. Sizing gets interesting and it may not be consistent across the line- the 3/2 may be a wildly different size than the spring suit or the 4/3. Charlie needs a winter suit, it’s real nice if you can get him into the same size as his 3/2. Or say you don’t have a 5/4 in stock, it’s real nice if he can try on a 3/2 and if it fits, you order the 5/4 and it will fit.
Oddball sizes- yeah, these can be handy to have in stock, a good sale if the guy who is a small-extra tall comes in, but there’s a reason they are remaindered by the maker.Good to have if the manufacturer pretty much gave them away,. but otherwise not so much.
Women’s suits. Yeah, the ego thing with mens suits goes triple for women’s suits, the size they wear is a big deal. Sorry, I’m an unreconstructed old guy with decades in the biz and yes, it happens. Hope nobody goes all me too on me, but that’s how it is. Likewise women’s suits come in two flavors, serious suits for serious surfer women and what are for all intents neoprene bikinis for those who want to be ornamental on the beach, they won’t see water that doesn’t have chlorine in it. The former tend to be more in Valkyrie sizing ( and they are likely to tire kick, find their size, go away and order online), the latter are for the teen and barely post teen .market. In either case, good to have a female employee for dealing with them, lest all kinds of problems rain on you. There is just no way an adult male can be selling rubber clothing to women without coming across a little …ahm… ‘pervy’ is the term I’m stuck with here.
Some other stuff- a good wetsuit company sales rep can save ya. They will steer you right and find you deals you can make money on or line their own pockets to your cost. I’ve seen reps I would trust absolutely and some who took their comission off the top before the order went in, IF the order went in. I have dumped lines when a good rep moved to another line. And there are some I wouldn’t carry because they have had shady reps- it reflects on the company.
And I’ve blathered on long enough
hope that’;s of use
doc…
Thank you Doc. Good solid info. And I must say that you confirmed some things that I had been thinking about and gave me confidence needed to go in the direction I started. Lowel
De nada. You know what you’re doing, you’ll; be okay.
For those contemplating the surf biz, well, I’m lazy, so see https://www.swaylocks.com/groups/how-open-surf-shop-or-why-not-series-doc . Adjust for inflation…
hope that’s of use
doc…
Hello Doc; I think similar however; I always maintaining a difference with that point of view and is that no matter if is a board shop; a surf shop; a guitar shop; a car dealer whatever; I really think that you need to carve in the customers mind the idea that you have all; that your place is the Da place to go. Also the important factor for me (but I am a designer) that if you sell a given thingy like hot cakes due to the price; marketing and hype; still is better (to enhance; to put QUALITY) to have high ends boutique items. You can have a handful of high end boards no matter if you stock them for couple of years there (its dress up the shop) and is easier to sell the cheaper boards (and maintain a real high end quality board is good for these next generations to see what is the real thing too)
—I lived in Japan and best wetsuits are really the boutique wetsuits there. Also Patagonia had (I do not know now) in the Tokyo surf shop (not in other Patagonia shop there or around the World) an special high end wetsuit made from yulex that almost did not have stitches and was very comfortable. The color was grey due to the process and was all smooth surface.
Oh my- where is Solosurfer/Atom Tan when I need him?
Okay, first. It’s a business. The idea is to make enough money to stay open, not have to live in your car and ideally have dining options besides microwave ramen. Don’t get me wrong, I like ramen, but not as an inevitable diet.
Next, and again. let me refer everybody to https://www.swaylocks.com/groups/how-open-surf-shop-or-why-not-series-doc In rereading that, it’s still pretty much all on point, though now everybody is on line, undercutting you. On anything and everything. It’s not just the surf shop down the street, it’s the whole damn world. Quick edit- looked in my email inbox and what do I see but https://www.kitterytradingpost.com/brands/oneill/?utm_source=Kittery+Trading+Post+Main+List&utm_campaign=f787fa032d-oneill-082320&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_6b02e99986-f787fa032d-150574609
So, what do you have to sell, really? That nobody else can beat you on? And bear in mind that even Ron Jons Surf Superstore or something like it can’t carry everything, your chances of being everything to everybody are just about zero. If I absolutely want a Cosmic Balfoon Mark 9 Whatever and you only have the Mark 8.8. I’m gonna go online and Prime will have it to me next Tuesday. Can’t compete with that.
And I’m not going to cry about it. Look, the customer gets what they want, probably cheaper than I can sell it to them. Maybe cheaper than I can buy it from Cosmic even with my surf shop wholesale price. Used to be, if I wanted something, I could check my local hsrdware store, if they didn’t have it or if it was pricy, I’d look in the Sears Roebuck catalog and maybe it was closer to what I wanted, cheaper, whatever. Sears blew it. they thought “Oh, we have retail sales now, our own stores, and some catalog stuff, we don’t have to go online” and now they are hosed. They figured it out but too late.
So, what are you gonna sell?
First, yourself. If you’re helpful, kind, not condescending, honestly trying your best for somebody, you don’t get that from a screen. And that’s important.
And that’s beginners. Right, you want to be the coolest duuude around, carrying high end stuff for all the cool hot surfer guys so they will be your friends? That’s nice, I’ll shop your going out of business sale. Beginners, average folks who ask questions, they are your customers. The cool hot surfer duuudes are flitting from shop to shop looking for free stuff. Don’t need them.
High end stuff for show and tell. Yeah, well- say I have a half dozen really high end boards in the place. They cost me $600 each. Assuming I got something boring, so I can actually sell them someday and the new hot thing next year doesn’t make them obsolete, I still have most of $4000 tied up in that. That same $4000 is 400 t-shirts with my logo on them, good ones, and I turn that over twice a season, 100% markup. I can live on that over the off season.
Versus sitting on the boards for a couple of years, selling them someday for $650 a pop. That’s surfboard markup. And throwing in a free leash, wax and t-shirt so I effectively make nothing. Let somebody else have the museum, I’m trying to make a living. Hell, I sometimes think I belong in a museum myself.
And if I have those high end boards in there and I am trying to sell cheaper boards alongside them, boards that I actually can move and maybe make some money on ( say at $100 markup each) , well, my cheap boards look like crap alongside the nice ones.
See where this is going?
What else do I have to sell? Convenience. Somebody lost one of their wetsuit boots, and he doesn’t want to miss a day. Markup on boots is pretty good. Leash broke? Fin fell off, or you forgot it and it’'s 100 miles away? All good, and that’s keystone markup too, 100%. Don’t go for 200%, they will pay it once but never again and they will tell all their pals.
As for that Patagonia Unobtanium wetsuit? I can’t think of anything more calculated to piss off most customers. As in “Yeah, isn’t this cool? Shame we can’t sell you one”. It’d certainly sour me on the shop and the brand. If you put “Coming next year” on it, well, there went sales on the suits you have in stock today that you paid for already.
Yeah, I’m a cynic. Relieved to be out of the business.
doc…
Been re-reading the old 'Surf Shop" thread. Good stuff.
…yes; I understand those points but seems that for any reason in some parts of the World works the other way; like in Japan; where are plenty of specialized only board shops; that are in the need to pay rent and taxes but still there and are pretty nice like Greg s shop that sells only long boards from California (Phillips etc)
And seems to work due to the high end California glass shops keep opened due to that market.
Even me that I still building boards (surviving) out side; yes outside the “social network”
I am not retarded, and I know that be inside the face book et all since at least 10 years ago would reported better; may be far better sells but I prefer peace of mind. No doubt there is a fine line border between being outdated and being incorporated into the new ways…
Hi Ding. Consider this. When I go through the racks during wetsuit sales there are still plenty of xl xxl, sm, etc and none in my size L or there abouts. I have no idea about women sizes in anything. Mike
Yeah my observation as well. M, MT, L and XL. Seem to be the most common sizes.
Something I would think about if I were going into the busienss - As was pointed out previously, cut-throat competition from on-line vendors who can cut overhead to the bone because they don’t have bricks-and-mortar costs, and, in some cases do not have any employees, is the norm now. I don’t know if it’s even possible to compete directly with that model - you probably need to be content with fighting for a share of the customers who prefer to be able to lay hands on the goods before buying. If you differentiate your offerings from theirs in such a way as to present the difference as a credible “value add” to your customers, it would help compensate for price differences. One potential way to do that (imo) is to shift the shop emphasis from clothing and accessories back to surfboards (I’m assuming you plan to sell both). Yeah, the “other stuff” is where the margins are, but just about everyone has conformed to the concept of having clothing, wet suits, etc. on the ground floor, with surfboards off to the side, or stuck up in a loft somewhere. Again, any positive differentiation can be important. The one exception to having clothing (etc.) as the primary focus of a surf shop around here is Surfer Supplies. George Gerlach always had the boards on display as THE primary draw, even after the other shops shifted. He always did quite well, to some extent as a result of that practice. Greg continues to do well there with the same concept. I could care less about buying a Hawaaian shirt, or flip flops, or shades in a surf shop - I want to look at the boards - and it would seem that I’m not completely alone in that. Now, I probably would have patronized George almost exclusively anyway, but that was because his “philosophy” of surfing in general was very much simpatico with mine, and the primacy of board display at Supplies was/is a reflection of his philosophy.
Sorry - got carried away there and ran quite far afield of your question…
Random thought, I had my wettie stolen from out the back of the science block here at work on monday…
I ended up ordering one, Small mens, cause im a skinny bugger, Maybe I shoulda bought one from a local shop, but I know the size I need as I have had one of the need essentials suits before. But damn it sucks to have the old one stolen.
Recommend / refer customers to where you’re currently getting your personal wetsuits. Why inventory them? Margin is low and they’ll just deteriorate sitting on hangers. Focus on your core business and make your investments there. This current surf industry bubble (including building supplies) ain’t going to last.
The whole business of wetsuits in the US is rather complicated. The really good neoprene normally comes from Japan since material processing like that is against EPA reg’s. Also how stretchy the material is very dependent on the nylon it’s bonded with. Trying to navigate buying material there and sewing here is prohibitive in cost and manpower. Easier to partner with somebody there and just import finished product. Problem is as the original post - what sizes? Pac Rim sizes are all over the place and it’s a whole other project to determine equivalent sizing for the US market and what new sizing is needed.
I’m currently trying to find an equivalent L, XL, XXL to match with FOM (Fat Old Man).
Do you rate the Need suits? I’ve heard mixed reviews, but would appreciate first hand feedback. =)
Need Essentials suits are priced very reasonably vs. top line labels. No frills, but good quality material and construction. IMO, they last pretty much as you would expect. I’ve got one that is wearing thru on the elbow right now. I’m not surprised, it’s time.
Cheers, I’ll be due for a new suit next year so I’ll see if I can lay my hands on one first …