I turned my friend on to shaping so we’re doing his first build together. His current quiver is two traditional longboards, an 8’0 quad, and a 6’2 twin fish that neigher of us can handle yet. His build and skill level are right around where Im at, 5’9" 160# wet, lower intermediate, surfing NJ breaks. We surf a lot together and swap boards. One day I let him ride the 6’9" flat bottom single fin egg GDaddy helped me design and I rode his 8’0 quad. He liked the 6’9" and I thought his 8’0 felt stiff on smaller 2-4’ waves and was floating to high in the water. I brought it home and spec’d it out. N12 = 17.3" Center 22.5" T12 = 15.75", with wide point 4" ahead of center. Concave in first half > flat > double concave under fins > vee out the back. The rails are soft and full and seems to work better on shoulder to head high for this reason.
He wants to go down in size but not too much so we settled on single fin with same rocker and thickness as my 6’9" but in 7’4" length. USBlank shipments were dwindling fast so we had to make a quick decision and picked up a 74SP. He’s nervous about changing width too much in the tail so we’re thinking about squash or round. The Liddel M3P was attractive but we both did a fair amount of reading on hull designs and reallized it’s too much to learn for both shaping and riding right now. So, we’ve come here for advice on profile and bottom contour. I feel the Liddel is too wide for that length without belly bneath to get it over, but it’s still on the table. Here are pics of his 8’0 along with rocker, thickness, plus images of some profiles we’ve been mulling over. In addition, Im showing the starting points for rocker and thickness for proposed build. i Would appreciate any feedback.
I thought his 8'0 felt stiff on smaller 2-4' waves and was floating to high in the water. I brought it home and spec'd it out. N12 = 17.3" Center 22.5" T12 = 15.75", with wide point 4" ahead of center. Concave in first half > flat > double concave under fins > vee out the back. The rails are soft and full and seems to work better on shoulder to head high for this reason.
IMO that’s an odd bottom setup for an 8-0 quad. Concave in the nose is usually used to stabilize the nose and slow a longboard down when you’re standing over the concave. With noseriding you want the board to run slow enough to stay with the wave and not outrun it. Nose concave normally goes with a low nose rocker. And then the tail rocker seems a little high for a quad setup on a template like that. Except for thrusters, the other fin setups generally tend to work better with lower tail rockers that will allow the board to do more of the work as opposed to the rider doing it by actively pumping the fin cluster.
The template has those hard corners so that’s going to tend toward more stickniness to go straight until it more abruptly releases if/when you bring it around enough to break it loose. These are design features that are desireable to people who are trying to surf that way, but that’s not everyone.
As for why the board feels stiff when you’re going slow but more lively as you get more energy I would blame the fin setup for that. Well, the fin setup + rider stance. The sweet spot for a quad cluster is further forward than for a thruster cluster, but you still have to have your rear foot far enough back to assert enough leverage to turn them. Add to that the point that quads are notoriously sensitive to fin sizing. You can overfin or underfin a quad real easily.
If you guys take the board out again then try switching out the rears with the smallest rears you can find and maybe bump the fronts up in size a bit. You could even try a pair of twins up front with some nubster trailers to add some stability back in. Staggering the fin sizes will move the center of effort for the cluster further forward and closer to where you’re standing, similar to moving the fin forward for a singlefin. If you want to really turn the board then you have to have leverage over your fin(s) to do it.
As for hulls, the Liddles are among the more extreme versions of that design - some people would say they’re the highest expression of it. Those boards are designed to be ridden way far forward. So they usually have very flat tail rockers and at least a moderate amount of belly (if not an extreme amount) through at least the front half of the board. The fins are used more as a control feature than to generate any energy. Narrow base with an upright template - they want the fin to hold when they’re on a rail but not be so stiff that they can’t turn the board when they’re standing so far forward. Note the fin position on the Liddle. It will be closer to 12" forward at the trailing edge.
Long story short, they’re a specialty design that’s aimed at riding a specific handful of breaks in a specific style. Deep committed bottom turns going frontside, set it in trim and let the board take off from there. It’s not that entertaining to watch because they’re using minimal inputs when in trim but the hull guys rave about the glide and the top end speed.
Aside from the template itself, the rest of the combo (rocker+bottom+ foil and fin position) is not a versatile design at all. I live in northern San Diego County and we don’t have any breaks here where that type of design would work well on a consistent basis.
I think the outline of the templates themselves are really nice, and it you used it on an SP blank with a lower nose rocker that would be a good combo.
With all that said, when I think of surf in New Jersey I think of conditions with a considerable amount of speed and energy once it gets to shoulder high or so. That’s the stereotype. And if that’s what you guys are commonly running into you might do better with the midlengths by running them as a 2+1 instead of a singlefin. I ride a singlefin when the conditions are slow and I want to stay with the wave. When conditions are faster or dump more then I switch it up to multi-fins and a bit more rocker. The green board on the left would be a really versatile board if you ran it as a 2+1 on a stock SP rocker. IMO.
In my opinion 22.75" is way too wide for that length if you’re running a 2+1 and trying to surf it actively. 21.75" will still get you somewheres around 50 liters in volume, which is way more than a 160# surfer needs to easily paddle into a head high wave. By the time we are talking about midlengths the idea of trying to run down a wave down from 30ft away becomes impractical. You need to have more judgement and positioning to get your waves. I found that image for the green board and its width at 7-6 was 22" even, so that lines up with what I’m talking about.
TBH, I think someone your size could probably get just about as many waves on a 7-0 length as a 7-4, and a 7-0 would be easier for you to duck dive.
I normally transition from a subtle chine (like 1/8th or even less) through the middle to vee, starting about a shaka ahead of the finbox. I also slightly tuck the rail but leave a hard edge along the vee panel. I think a little vee is plenty. A lot of vee gets draggy. Besides, that template already has a lot of curve in the tail that will respond to your inputs. I like the tucked rail with the hard edge because I believe it offers a good compromise between hold and release. No-edge will tend to hold more and release less, whereas no tuck will release more abruptly.
I thought more width equates to more planing area, hence more speed. But youre suggesting it will make the board more sluggish, so I can do 7’4" x 21.5" x 2.75". Regarding 7’0" length, it was my other thread that i mentioned chasing waves down. This build is for my friend, stepping down in size from an 8’0", so I think 8" less is a easier transition than a 12". I really like the idea of chine. So you’re starting the vee ~ 8" in front of the fin box, but I thought running it through the fin area and out the back interfere with the fin doing its work? Wouldnt I want to sheer water beneath the fin and out the back so it’s faster?
On the one hand you’re right about (all else being equal) more surface area making for more paddle speed and more planing. On the other hand you’re going to run into control issues if you go too fat or too wide. The use of longboards as weapons of mass wavecount is a thing for some people, but by the time you move into the smaller boards it’s usually more about surfing the board than it is about running waves down from 50ft away. For most people, anyway.
Lookit - if you want to go short/wide in order to catch more waves then commit to that track and just do a midlength Simmons. A 19" tail width and a 15" tail block will definitely paddle and surf fast. An 8ft Simmons is a longboard killer in terms of wavecount. You won’t be able to turn it but you will get your waves. My big guy (260#) has an 8ft Simmons. He’s big enough to surf it and he never uses a leash because there’s no leashplug and that’s how he rolls. I can’t control it, and I’m sure as hell not going to take that thing out into the lineup without a leash. I have some social conscience and regard for the well being of others.
Just as a general observation it’s common for people to take a design element and apply an extreme version of it the first time they use it. Rockers going too high or too low, concaves or vees being amplified, foils and rails going too fat or too thin, channels or wings going wyld. Its way better to use too little than to use too much. If you have to really look for it to see it then that’s usually about the right amount.
Well, no need for a Simmons, but I get your point. This rider is just looking for an easier transition as he steps down from a very full, thick, wide 8’0. I think we’re good and I appreciate how pulling the width in will make it perform better. Will post pics as the build progresses
Set the rocker and thickness as noted above, and cut the profile from green board shown above. Designing rail bands now, attached are rough starting points. I havent calculated the band points yet. The riders current 8’0" board has very 50/50 full rails, and he wants to make this transition down to this 7’4" board as easy as possible. So I figured a good starting point is full down. Also putting up rails in front, thinking it will help with drive and projection, and stabilize in chop. Any thoughts?
You’re sufficiently thoughtful that you should try using the CAD software for this. The 3-D rendering feature alone will help you visualize what these various changes do for you.
The program comes with 3 starter files, one for a high performance shortboard, one for a funboard and one for a high performance longboard. For what you’re doing, the funboard template is a good starting point, although you’ll want to make some modifications.
With respect to your rail and bottoms, the bottom and rails of the funboard will work for what you’re doing, although I personally wouldn’t use a vertical downrail in the tail. I prefer the Hawaiian bottoms, which run a little tuck from nose to tail.
Hey man, thanks for the boardcad reference. i knew of it but have been avoiding as much software as I can, so worked it out on paper. But Im sure there’s a lot to learn with this tool. I downloaded version 3.0.1 it and cant seem to find the three built-in starter templates. Did yours come with it?
Regarding small tucked edge throughout, I thought a down hard edge in the last 12" would sheer water quickly, making it faster, and clearing the way for this single fin to do its job. Are you suggesting a tuck here gives a bit more control? BTW, no side bites on this ride, it’s for 1-4ft waves on the weaker side. One of the rails in your picture, (red arrow in attached pic) is boxy and Ive never seen something like this before. Is that in the rear section? I’d expect that to hard to bank over with?
This 7’4" x 21.5" x 2.75" is complete, pics below. Thanks everyone for the input. The rider, my buddy, wanted plenty of float so I tried to stretch the foiling out both ways. Rocker is 4.2 in nose and 2.3 tail. Deck is quite flat so the rails overall are quite full, 50/50 soft up front, transition to a down rail with a tuck that sharpens up as it goes back, ending in front of the fin, going hard in the tail. Vee starts where the tuck ends, and goes right out the back. Totally flat bottom otherwise. The finbox is sticking up about 1/16" inch which makes the vee look higher, so it’s lower than shown. I took it for a spin in some weak waves and it paddles well, rather like a flat deck under my feet. Fuller rais are an improvement over my previous which were knifefy with the front getting caught up in the face of the wave sometimes. Felt a bit stiff though on the bottom turn and I suppose a higher tail rocker would help that. Maybe a bit too much foam for me though I felt I was more on top of the wave, but he liked it. The sharp tuck makes it feel crisp when I begin a turn. Front end feels a bit wide too when I intiate the turn, wouldnt mind bringing it in a bit. Real curious to see how this behaves on a stronger wave. In a way this is an iteration of my 6’9" egg that I made previously which was completely flat and vee, and although it feels faster this one turns in a bit quicker. Next one might split the difference with just hair of vee instead. Sadly, i took a fin to the nose at the end of our sessions like a kook and ended up in the ER with 10 stitches so Im out the water for 10 days. One thing Im wondering about is the pitting Ive been getting with my glass jobs lately. Im using RR Kwik Kick at 85F. Maybe Im squeezing too much out when I laminate or maybe air bubbles? This pic was taken before sanding and I did grind down most of it, but didnt want to go overboard.
Sorry about your accident. That sux. The board looks nice, though.
The board has plenty of curve in the rocker and the tail. If it feels stiff then move the fin up. In any case, you want to plant your rear foot right over the fit when you turn - that will give you more than enough leverage to turn the board.
For surfing those types of boards you want to try to get used to surfing as if you had no leash. Try to stay with the board even when you’re losing your balance. That’ll reduce how often you have to deal with the uncontrolled returns.
Sorry about your accident. That sux. The board looks nice, though.
The board has plenty of curve in the rocker and the tail. If it feels stiff then move the fin up. In any case, you want to plant your rear foot right over the fin when you turn - that will give you more than enough leverage to turn the board.
For surfing those types of boards you want to try to get used to surfing as if you had no leash. Try to stay with the board even when you’re losing your balance. That’ll reduce how often you have to deal with the uncontrolled returns.
Be aware that this design tops out at about head high. Less than that if its a fast wave. When surfing it your plan should be to mostly stay in the pocket to turn and then shuffle to the middle to trim down the line. Pumping it like a thruster will be a waste of time - just let the board do most of the work. Smooth is fast.
Thanks. Little did I know stitches on your face requires that you be out of the water for 20 days. :/ It was my fault though for surfing close-outs on a board I just finished, I got cocky. Good tip for the fin, I like simple solutions
