In the past I built about 10 wooden HWS surfboards, mostly single fins and from mid to long in length. My standard bottom contours are concave in the front and Vee in the tail. The Vee in combination with a steeper tail rocker enabled me to set the boards onto their rails and turn quite easily. I like this setup, it works for me, but beeing more a beginner than expert surfer, other setups might have worked and pleased too. Once or twice I rode flat bottom beginner foam boards (with foam on deck) but I did not have an immediate comparison with comparable boards.
IN the moment I’m building a 9’2 Longboard, but my next plan is to design a double ender, in the real sense, meaning a reversible board with a single fin box at each end. The basic is a modified pig shape with the width point about 10inches to the back. In this direction the board should behave like a pig, with more intentions on turning faster than noseriding, because the front width will be quite narrow, about 15’’ at 12’'. Rockers at both end would be exacly equally.
This would allow to to turn the board resulting in a board with the widest point forward with a kind of rounded pintail back, similar to some performance longboards.
I started the design with a vee at the pigs back and a concave to get better noseriding abilities at the narrow front, but this would result in a single concave in the tail of the performance direction…, and I have never seen a concave in a boards tail (one big single not a double concave in the vee, spiral vee)
So now I’m opting for a flat bottom, being as neutral as possible for both directions, the rails I going for are rounded or chined bevelled 60:40 all around.
Despite the whole thing, whether it makes sense or not, at least it will give me some insights on the influecence of the outline of the board.
But what would you exspect from a flat bottom, or provocativly asked, is all that bottom shape design more marketing than anything else?
I’m at best a lower level intermdiate surfer who has built about 10 boards, so you’ll get better advice from more senior members. But I’ll take a shot a this anyhow.
I rode boards with high rockers, with vee and/or concave for about a year. Some I still ride. However, my favorite board is a flat bottom egg. A 6’9’ single fin with a rather low rocker, 15" tail. GDaddy helped me design it here, so I owe him some gratitude. Pros of this flat bottom? It’s fast because there’s less drag than a contoured bottom. It also feels more predictable in terms of handling. Cons? It can feel a bit stiff. Im sure that a little vee in the rear, or a thiner tail might have helped loosen it up a bit. I should add that I was originally riding it with a 7" california classic fin and when I switched it out for a skip frye with less rake, it helped.
To answer your question, “is all that bottom shape design more marketing than anything else?” No way. My 8’2 swallow tail has a ton of vee in the tail and I can feel how much it helps it turn in. My 6’2 quad has concave running through the 2/3’s of the board and it swivels very easily. Like anything else here, iI think it’s about choosing the right combination, ie rocker, fin, rails, outline, etc that all work together in unison with the bottom contour.
When I look at your design from the left side where the fin box is installed, I see the wide point really far back. I also see an outline with a fair amount of curve. This suggests that turning this board is more important than trimming straight, and that you want to do it from the rear foot. The noseriders I’ve seen tend to have a straighter profile with trimming more in mind first.
Regarding the sight from the left, I totally agree, noseriding from there should be much more difficult than ridden from the other side. But this is one of the goals, to see and feel the differences. I agree to your middle part too, a vee in the back is good for turning, but here a vee in the back, is also a vee in the front and vice versa, thats why I finally opted for a totally flat bottom, being as neutral as possible to both sides.
OK, I get it now. Interesting experiement but here’s my concern amigo. The rocker and thickness distribution are dead even both ways, but the outline/profile aren’t following suit. For example, riding from the left, you’ve got a wide point way back but the thicker measurements forward of that. I could be wrong, but once you’re up and planing, you’ll have to stand back towards this wide point where it pivots, otherwise youre stalling to turn it, but the extra foam up front will be floating high, so it’ll be harder to turn. And I’d expect the rails section forward of the wide point to hang up. Maybe check out the McCoy nugget to see how the foam is distributed with a wide point back like that. And riding from the right, now you’ve a wide point real far forward and thats where the turning point is pivoting around, but your fin is way behind.
but if ridden from right the wide point forward is not really the turning point. The turning point is in the back too, but it it definitely a more carving orientated turning point, than a trimming turning point. You may compare it with this one:
But of course it will be definitely a compromise, a board with two direction, which may not be a perfect match, neither for a pig, nor towards performance. But I hope to get a very versatile longboard, the kind of one board fits all. Ridden from the left for slower and lower waves, ridden from the right for steeper and higher. And this is the idea and finally the question, does the flat bottom allow for this, keeping in mind, that of course some contours may be better, but just for just one direction? (And we are definitely not talking Pro Level; it should be fun for a beginner to intermediate, forgiving, easy, old guys board, but with two distintive sides…)
Fun idea. With a compromise, you usually want something neutral and the flat bottom seems like that. I hope you post a ride report in this thread once it’s done
Hope it will be done, I sometimes design boards which are just for designing and thinking about it. But the chances are good, since we are still in the lockdown and I do have enough material at home to start. But there is another favorite, a 7’2’’ Singlefin, close to a Haydenshape Cannon, just a little longer.
I just finished a longboard for a friend, it not glassed yet, but the woodwork is done. Its a 9’2 Performance Hollow Wood Balsa with some cork, it weighs 4,7kg as it is now, after glassing an a final PU Coat it should be within 5,5 and 6 kg or about 12 lbs.
No, its my Dozuki, but theres a large ryoba at the wall, above left of the handplanes, but somewhere in the foreground, hidden and not visible is a regular ryoba. I love those saws, they are precise and fast, usually its faster cutting with them, than turning on power saws. I build the bench, a split top roubo clone, just using them and the handplanes.
Excellent. Have you tried the shapton glass sharpening plates with the diamond lapper? best i could find to sharpen my chisels, and of course they come from japan too. at one point i was using the 16000 grit hone vintage straight edge razors, wicked sharp
I’m using natural stone, I got some welsh slates left from sharpening my razors, they work quite good on my chisels and planes. but I have some diamond plated dmt “stones” and some ohzuki, nakayamas and others. But after 15 years straight razors I’m shaving with a slant razor and regular blades in the moment :)
well, it looks like you and i have alot in common. have you visited japan? its a special place for me.
i like your comment about designing sometime for the sake of the thought process that comes along with it. i really like having a project that occupies my mind with design puzzles, something to mull over when i have free time or when im falling asleep. i have to say that shaping has been the most challenging in that way, and the most rewarding so far
Unfortunately I still haven’t been to Japan, but it is a very interesting country. I always wonder what is the real reason why their knifes and tool are so divers from our european style (I’m from Germany, rather landlocken, surfing only on vacation) Compare a kamisori (japanese razor) to a german straight razor, compare a santoku to a Güde kitchen knife, why does a european chisel differ from a ore nomi? (One part must have been the “steel”, its origins here and there and the treatment. All above have in common that a very hard special piece of steel, is welded (mostly by forging) into a softer steel…)
And you are right, shaping is challenging. Since I’m building only wooden boards (hollow wooden) the shaping process lies within the design process with the CAD program. (I use BoardCad) You have to shape the board first in your mind, then in the system, then you change the details and finally you are going build it, whereas with foam, you may buy a foam block and start shaping the board out of the block. The only comparable shaping is rails, where you attach some kind of wooden block to your hollow wooden core. There you can shape a little different to your finished design, but not very much.
Ha, Im 1/3 german but married in japan. From what I’ve read, the original forging techniques used in japan yielded a much higher carbon content than what the germans were capable. Id be surprised if that was stil the case though. The sharpest blade I handled was from blue paper, aogami, it honed very well. Second best is the chisels I got from Lie Neilsen, cant rememebr what type of tool steel was put into it, but its sharp as hell and holds that way for a while.
Someday Id like tp try to make a hollow balsa board. Sounds like a lot of fun. How long does it take total after your design is ready? My current process starts with a list of requirements of what I want the board to do in the water, and this rolls into a list of features such as low or high rocker, tail width, etc. Then I begin using some software. I use Photoshop to compare other boards already out there. It helps for me to visualize rocker, thickness, tail, nose, etc. Then. I sketch it out on paper and create look up tables, like a list of target rocker measurements once every 6", list of target thickness measurements, and so on. Then I shop for a blank that this all fits into. The only thing thats really retained from the original blank is the rocker, I adjust the tail and nose.
The above longboard build started around the 13th of January, but stalled some days to wait for glueband due to other things to do. On average if you can work 30 min in the morning and an hour in the evening, some hours on weekends I would guess about two weeks until glassing. Most of the time you wait for the glue to settle. Glaasing another week (my epoxy likes 24 hours to go ahead…) if glassed and hot or glosscoated I will wetsand it with 150 amd 300 grit and give him a final PU Varnish Coat for ultimate UV protection, durability and water proofness. This coat is touch dry after a day, but it will at least take 10 days to cure finally. Theres a lot of waiting involved, but pure work is 20-40 hours depending on the boards dimensions and features, like veneer or kork or whatever…
I know a guy that makes double enders using the same logic, the wide point can either be forward or behind the center. I made an 8’ version for myself, but my board is a pig with twin fins or a single fin with the wide point forward. It’s been posted on swaylocks before. This computer crashed and I don’t have the images on it.
One thing you have remember is that you’re building a board with 2 tails, and no nose. The wider tail has just about 3" rocker and the narrow tail is about 2.5". I did this thinking that I’d like a bit more rocker when I ride it as a single. I have a vee with concaves on the single fin tail and a flat bottom on the twin fin tail. The whole board has hard edges along the rail. I’ve ridden it as a twin in smaller waves (less than head high) and as a single in waves up to sightly overhead. Even with the double concaves in the nose, I haven’t noticed problems riding it. I have been building boards with a hard edge from the nose through the tail, so I’m used to it. I do think this board would have been more fun about 6’ 6", or if I made the twin side tail a little narrower. It’s wide and round.
This is a short clip a friend shot of me riding the board last August. I think this was the last week I surfed due to surgeries and a bad accident that kept me out of the water. Hope to be getting back in the water soon.
OK, so you take your time carefully on it, I like that way of working. Impressive results too, thanks for sharing. You seem to have a full workshop. I’ll send this to my Dad, he might be inspired by it
Very cool. Can you talk about your body position on the board, depending on which side your riding? Do you find yourself having to lay further forward or back than you would like?
The only thing I consciously do is deal with the low nose rocker when catching waves. Angled entry helps with steeper waves. I found these images in another blog.
