Concept of a unconventional short nose-rider

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lukecmcd's picture
Joined: 05/07/2021

I want to make a very unconventional, exciting board in small waves, either at longboarding beaches, open mushy faces, or summer waves.

Theoretically, how small does a board have to be in order to hang 10 or atleast have a solid hang 5?

Would it even be possible to put a very heavy displacement hull on a 5'5 board, a concave belly on the nose for balance, and fat tail to send the back of your board as deep as possible in the water, so you can put more pressure in the front? I am thinking either a single fin or two keels would be ideal for this, thinking of around 34/35 L (I am 6'1 170-185 lb).

If no real nose ride is possible then I want to make the most optimal miniismmons-ish cheater hang 5 board. What features should I be looking out for to do this? Would it be similar to how i stated above: concase nose, displacement hull, etc.?

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McDing's picture
Joined: 05/22/2004

Luke--  Why not move your post over to "General Discussion".   You'll get more action over there.  Maybe one of our Moderators will move your post.

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Scott Jarratt's picture
Joined: 01/01/2018

Ages ago when we started going short from longboards, one concept was to cut out the middle of a longboard template.  They're still made.  To make it an effective noserider, the key is to have a sufficient flip in the tail rocker to suck the tail down when you're on the nose - about 1/4" to 3/8" or so over the last foot of the tail and very well blended will work.  Here's my 9' 4" minus 2' 6" mush rider.  The picture is from before I installed permanent mortise and tenon fins - a modified 2+1 Jamie Mitchel Futures set.  The back fin is 3 1/2" from the tail and is 5 7/8" deep.  The side fins are 11 1/2" from the tail and 5" deep.  The board is 6' 10" long and 22" wide.  The back half of the template is off a 9' 4" x 23".  I spread it a little at the tail block and pinched it a little at the wide point to make it fit at this length and width.  I had to gin up the nose from scratch.  The board is a hoot to ride in what would otherwise be worthless slop.

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gdaddy's picture
Joined: 10/31/2008

Bumped to update in General Discussion forum

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Monkstar1's picture
Joined: 06/21/2004

I can easily hang five on my 5' simmons-esque board. It has a wide, longboard nose with longboard concave underneath. One thing that surprised me was how loose the board can be when you're up on the nose; there isn't that extra 'longboard' length to help mellow it out so it can be squirrelly.

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gbzausa's picture
Joined: 09/13/2009
The short longboard has been numerous times by various shapers , probably the most successful was the cheater five phat pig , I think you can still buy them.
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stoneburner's picture
Joined: 12/30/2007

Just my $0.02, I think the key to a short noserider will be proper length and arc of tail rocker.

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Surfifty's picture
Joined: 03/19/2004

You'll want a lot of float and glide.  Think wide, think thick, think about a fin that will hold and like above think about tail rocker.  

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unclegrumpy's picture
Joined: 09/16/2006

Something along the lines of a Takayama Scorpion might work for you.

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No; It's not an ironing board.

gdaddy's picture
Joined: 10/31/2008

I think the intelligent way to approach this question is to start with the longboards which are specifically built for noseriding and work backwards.   A traditional noserider isn't just long in length.   These boards tend to share other elements.   

Take Takayama's Model-T as an example.   That board has

 - a wide squared-off tail block.   The fat ass in the back enables the straighter rail line through the rear quarter and it provides plenty of surface area to support the rear of the board as a counterbalance for when it's loaded up front. 

 - a large pivot fin which is mounted way far back on the tailblock, the tip extending past the tail block.   That keeps the fin engaged when the rider is up front.

 - some kick in the tail rocker.  Again, to keep the fin engaged when the board is counterbalanced up front

 - a long straight rail line which maximizes how much of the rail is engaged with the face when the board is loaded up.       

 - the flat nose rocker which also maximizes the amount of surface area that's engaged when the board is loaded up

 - and lastly, the nose concave which some people argue is actually acting as a brake to slow the board down due to all the drive it's getting from the "all-motor" rail-line and flat nose rocker of these designs.   

Think about what you're trying to do with the one-trick-pony noserider design.    If you have transitioned from paddling to noseriding then you don't want to outrun the sweet spot of the wave, especially when the wave is running slow due to not having a lot of energy to begin with.  You actually want the board to match the speed of the wave.  More torque than horsepower.  You want maximize your tip time and reduce how often you need to turn.   

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gdaddy's picture
Joined: 10/31/2008

From the above we can consider it would take to get a super short length to noseride.  It might look something like this:

 - an OG Simmons template with the wide point way back behind center.  This will straighten out the rail line to the front.  When you don't have a lot of length then you need all the straight you can get in the rail line.  Or maybe a Scorpion-type template (see how straight the rail line in the middle is) but with a straighter rear quarter.  

- wide tail block; see above; 

- the tail flip might not be necessary or even desireable due to the short length.    

- Tall fin(s) set way back to provide hold, not necessarily for drive.  After all, you're not going to be standing over their fins and working them for drive; you're going to be up front where you have no leverage over the fins.   For hold, maybe consider mounting twins, one at each corner and hanging over the back. Perhaps with a pivot template, a fatter tip and no flex.   Those won't let go when you're up front 

- a flat rocker throughout with a light-to-moderate convex bottom and some vee in the tail for when you do need to turn.  MAYBE even some channels through the middle to add to the drive and hold.  

- 10/90 rails in the nose transitioning to 50/50 rails in the tail to stick to the wave face instead of releasing

------------------------------

The thing to remember about such a project is that it still lacks the length (the surface area) that it takes to paddle fast so you won't be able to run down a knee-high wave from 50ft away with that fem-boi bicycle leg paddling motion.  When you're on a short length you will need to already be in the right spot to catch that wave.  That lazy longboard paddling style isn't going to cut it; you're going to have to paddle like the kids on the pro-tour on their little 25L shortboards in order to catch that kind of wave.  That length and rocker will also require a much more accurate level of timing to pop up; that fat ass will pick the energy of the wave up every abruptly and you won't have any margin for error. 

And lastly, the short length with straigher rail line will detract from the smooth graceful lines that a longboard draws, and if you try to cure that by adding curve back into the template that will come at the expense of drive and speed from the rail line.   

So don't get your hopes up about this project turning out to be the short board that paddles like a longboard because that can't happen.   

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gdaddy's picture
Joined: 10/31/2008

If I was going to attempt a 5-4 noserider this is how I think I'd do it.  Maybe mount a pair of 6" or 7" Brewer template or pivot fins at the corners.    

A long time ago, before Takayama-the-younger was doing his Scorpion my son ordered a 6-ft board with that template from a friend of ours and FOR US it was a total dog in terms of riding in trim or attempting a cheater-5. The shaper's execution was perfect so that wasn't it; it was the design itself.    There was too much curve in too short a length to ride it like that.   It paddled well for its length and it surfed well off the tail (which is what the design was for) but it had no drive and almost no hold when we were up front.  Despite the 9" fin we were running   I mostly blame the length + tail shape for that.  

But that board was a singlefin, not a 2+1 the way G.Takayama does his boards.   Maybe that makes a difference WRT riding from the forward position but TBH I knida doubt it.    

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Leo_Opolain's picture
Joined: 09/01/2021

I wanted to answer you the same, but I saw this answer. I think you should take a closer look at him. Everything is clearly described here. I totally agree

[quote = gdaddy]

I think the smart way to approach this is to start with longboards, which are specifically built for know riding and run backwards. The traditional rider isn't just long. These boards tend to separate other elements.

Take Takayama's Model-T, for example. This board has

- wide rectangular tail block. The thick rear end provides a straighter rail line across the rear quarter and provides ample surface area to support the rear of the board as a counterweight when loaded from the front.

- a large articulated stabilizer that is mounted far back on the tail block, the tip protruding beyond the tail block. This keeps the fin engaged when the rider walks in front.

- some kind of kick in the tail rocker. Again to keep the fin engaged when the board is front-balanced

- a long, straight rail line that maximizes how much the rail engages the face when loading the board.

- a rocker with a flat nose, which also increases the surface area involved when loading the board

- and finally, the nasal concavity, which some people claim, actually acts as a brake, slowing the board down due to all the traction it receives from the "all motor" rail line and flat nose rocker of these designs.

Consider what you are trying to do with a one-trick bow rider design. If you've moved from rowing to bow-riding, then you don't want to dodge the sweet point of the wave, especially when the wave is slow due to lack of energy to begin with. You really want the board to match the speed of the wave. The torque is greater than the horsepower. You want to maximize tip time and reduce turning frequency.

with&Resrect Leo_Opolain, employee tracking

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stoneburner's picture
Joined: 12/30/2007

IMO tail rocker in a noserider is about the Coanda Effect...

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gdaddy's picture
Joined: 10/31/2008

You may be 100% right on that one.  If so, a shorter length might actually call for more flip in the tail, not less.     Gene Cooper (MR Gene Cooper, to me) was doing a radical kinked tail on some of his longboards.   He commented on this forum a while back about that with some observations about the limitations with that design but I don't recall exactly what he said.    

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stoneburner's picture
Joined: 12/30/2007

From the science aspect, there is an arc slope angle beyond which increases have no benefit -- 18 degrees would be a lot of arc in a tail rocker.

IMO pairing optimum tail rocker arc slope and arc length with board length is the objective.

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RDM's picture
RDM
Joined: 11/14/2004

You mean like this?

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Scott Jarratt's picture
Joined: 01/01/2018

A good tail rocker.  Easy to noseride.

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stoneburner's picture
Joined: 12/30/2007

Beyond arc slope and arc length, in theory, increasing the width of a tail with proper rocker could increase the Coanda Effect.

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SammyA's picture
Joined: 01/14/2006

lukecmcd wrote:

 a concave belly on the nose for balance,


Concave belly is an oxymoron. Belly is the total opposite of a concave.

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