We still cant glass yet here because its freezing. To occupy my time I looked at the first board I made and unfortunately it was atrocious and I needed to have the experience of the other board we made at the same time to realize what proper rails actually look like.
This is the shorter thinner and reshaped version of the first monstrosity. I tried to unlock it from the other board.
I just want some guidance on the rail bands I currently have. I am shooting for something a bit boxy so I went 2 and 4 inches at the Back and Middle and then 3 and 1.5 12 inches from nose.
My main question is
How tight do you make your bands for the nose. Should I just dowel each line straight into the nose?
For the tail I was planning on marking 2 and 4 on the tail block and then connecting. Is this the right way to do it
The orientation of your pic isn’t straight-on to the centerline so it’s a little hard to tell, but from this angle the outline looks good. The deck rocker looks really flat and we obviously can’t see the bottom rocker or the actual foil.
If you have thinned down the overall thickness of the blank then one of your considerations is whether you want to retain a flat deck vs taking more off in order to dome the deck.
There is just a touch of rocker in the board (our waves are mushy). Continuous rocker as opposed to stage ( I dont really know the benefits of one vs the other).
I just can’t wrap my head around how to do the nose rails properly. Should I just dowel up the lines I already have and have them both meet at the nose? Then for the tail keep the same rail lines at 2 and 4 inches which is what I have?
from what i’ve seen you usually would keep the rail 50 50 the whole way through the board and so therefore I think that the main determinant of the rail is actually the marking 50% of the height of the rail carried along all points of the board (so if the tail is 1.5 inches, then the rail mark at the tail would be .75 and then if its 2.5 in the center marking would be 1.25 and then if the nose is thinner 1/2 of that?
Is that correct for ther rails more or less? Am I over thinking this.
Take a look at this graphic and see it it helps you out. This is an old design for a 5-6 Fish but the way they show the cuts will work. Note the 1.5" thickness @ 12" from the nose. Then note that the primary rail band has about the same angle from one end to the other, but takes different widths depending on the thickness of the center at that point. If you do that the rail bands will be more parabolic rather than parallel to the outline, meaning narrower at each end and wider in the center.
It might also be helpful to know that some very good shapers shape their rails from the bottom to the deck, not from the deck to the bottom.
By the way, short/wide length + flat rocker + mush waves means you probably want the board to ride higher in the water and release as opposed to riding deeper and more engaged in order to smooth the ride out. More skate than carve. If so, a good combo for that is to retain the flat bottom fairly far out to the rail then do a rounded rail with some tuck. Holds when you want it to hold and releases when you want it to release.
In the graphic below you probably want to shoot for a E through J on that list, rounder if your surfer is heavy relative to the dimensions of the board and thinner if it’s a girl or a kid and they don’t have the weight/strength to get that rail down when they need it.
Basically what you are saying is that the rail maintains a constant set of angles regardless of its width. So basically near the nose and the tail I need to calibrate the lines such that the angle is the same as it is in the cente of the board. Id probably just join all the lines with a dowel and go from there. That makes sense to me
I agree with keeping the bottom flat for a long ways. I might even just tuck it instead of adding any belly at all. Is there any real harm to doing that?
Putting aside concave vs convex bottoms for a moment, when it comes to a transition from the bottom to rail you can go directly from flat to radius. In my opinion that’ll give you a quicker and more lively response, especially if you do that Hawaiian-style and bring the flats to a tucked edge from nose to tail.
. But FOR ME, I usually only go straight from flats to radius on the narrow high performance shapes, of which I don’t do very many. With wide widths - which is what I mostly do, I add a chine or bevel between the flats and the rail, similar to what the rail profiles on that fish are showing in that preceding post #4 (he’s labeled it “belly rise”). I think that little chine smooths the ride and the turns out and reduces the chatter or twitchiness you sometimes get with wide widths coming to an abrupt transition to the rail. But I usually do that chine in extreme moderation, like no more than 1/8th" deep. I first shape the bottom flat and turn the rails, and then I come back with a sanding block to cut that chine in, either from nose to the vee or sometimes from nose to tail in the midlengths and eggs. 1 or 2 passes is all it takes. If I’m going to blend those edges in after that I can do that by hand, or, I sometimes leave those edges depending on how I intend the board to surf.
For the multi-fin boards I do I usually cut those bevels so shallow that most people won’t notice them unless I point it out or they’re using a straight edge.
Actually, I think you should try it both ways at some point and see which you like better. After all, what works for you is the only real measure of the utility of any design element.
Another thing that caught my attention in your description is that you’re using a continuous rocker. This is where your choice of bottom contours and fin setup comes in.
Well the continuous rocker wasnt entirely intentional If I’m being honest. Was part of the salvage mission on the first board haha
How does a continuous vs staged rocker change your thinking for fins and bottom contour? I was basically going to set this up as a quad given the volume isnt as high as I wanted as I ended up taking a lot of foam to fix the shape.
I was thinking I would just use the guidance documents I got in the other thread for placement but wasnt really going to do anything deliberately beyond just copying.
Bottom contours and fins is a topic where opinions and preferences vary widely. And basically, most of these combinations work, depending on the surfer’s style and preferences. Again, you want to figure out which combos work for you.
FOR ME and in general, I favor staged rockers with flat-to-vee bottoms for my local conditions and my personal style and my limitations. I also subscribe to the use of convex for controlling large surface areas and concaves for maxing drive/speed for narrow surface areas. So I might use a single to double or a heavy single concave for a narrow board but I would never do that on a wide board because the fat assed boards already have all the surface area they need to get motivating. With fat assed boards I want to add more control so that means vee or dome or such. I only favor thrusters for the high performance shortboards, never for fat assed boards.
But it may be that none of the above works for you.
Anyways, you have a wide board with a wide tail and a flat and continuous rocker. If you’re front footed in your surfing then adding some concave up the center will straighten the rocker in the center whilst retaining the curvier rocker in the rails. If you were surfing more off your rear foot and you’re doing a lot of pumping through a fin cluster than you might want to skip the concave. I wouldn’t favor a thruster for that board but you might, depending on your style.
What you have so far reminds me of a model that one of our regulars does (Bruce Fowler, goes by the handle “Deadshaper” on this forum). He’s a prolific builder and he’s really good at explaining what he’s doing and why he’s doing it. There are a couple of really long threads involving his work that you might have an interest in reading through. He calls this one the “Fountain of Youth”
There’s an even longer thread for his designs but I couldn’t locate it. Maybe Huck or one of the others can find it. That thread has even more info on this shape.
He does these in a variety of lengths, including some as short as your’s. The pic below is of a 6-6 length.
I got the rails on. Can anyone explain to me why I would use a screen over just sandpaper?
Basically all I have left is a little sanding to do and shes ready for fins!
Thanks again for all the pointers. So far the tip to shape stringer first saved my ass on this one and so did the masonite pointer. The rails are still not at the level id like but I assume like everything that will continue to improve with each board. I just have a hard time getting them identical on both sides.
Hi fundito. Looks like you need to work on getting good clean template for your board. Check out John Carper’s shaping 101 video. It’s free on you tube. His method of making rail bands is really simple and turns out consistent rails. To get up in the nose area where my planer has difficulty with rail bands I use a sanding block with 60 grit and follow my shadows. Mike
Haha suck at surfing thought id take up shaping. Plus im a big boy so I wanted to be able to make boards that fit my frame.
Can you by chance look at the picture above this and look at the outline I had there. I thought the outline actually looked pretty good post template but looking at this now I might have somehow bungled it up in the railing process. Is the spot you are talking about at the top more than any other part of the board?
This video is no longer free it seems but I think I might just buy it and ingest knowledge
Once you get your outline you want to use a really light touch at the corners. You’re not trying to take as much material off. If you end up with some needle nose you can always fix that by clipping 1/2" off the tip and rounding the first 2-3 inches.
You always want to chase the curve, not the number.
Haha the reason I got into shaping was because Ive spent 15 years trying to find a board that is as fun to ride as the quad fin walden magic fish I had when I first started. That thing was such a blast to ride and could catch anything.
I think for the next board I actually make for myself I am gonna try and make a cool 6’4 quad fin fish for the sloppy waves we have. Basically no rocker and just a nice juicy fish outline.
