Thick longboards - de factor standard

de “facto”, rather.   Why are nearly all longboards so thick, ie 2.8-3.1? If you take a 9’6, for example, and put a 150# guy riding 6-9 sec period swell, surely there’s isn’t enough power to twist it apart. So, why not bring the thickness down to 2.5? You take advantage of more maneuverability both in and out of the water. And if you want big soft rails you can still extend the foil out to get it there. My first thought was added weight makes for more glide, but I rode a Jimmy Lewis with his proprietary composite, it was super light and glide was just fine. 

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Some builders have been making liteweight high performance longboards with thicknesses down to 2.25", lightly glassed and heavily rockered so their riders can “rip” on a longboard. 

As far as overflexing a surfboard it isn’t just the thickness; it’s actually the combination of length+thickness that leads to more flexing.   A 6-2 x 2.25" shape isn’t going to flex nearly as much as a 9-2 x 2.25" shape.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hadnt thought of that, but I can see how more area causes more stress.  So I suppose making them extra thick is a way of placing durability over form and function. Would make sense because meost people hang onto longboards for a long time and ride them in a wide range of conditions.

Umm, a few things at work here. 

First off, now that so many are using software that can calculate volume, they have fallen in love with it. Suddenly they think it matters. 

Now, volume has its place. When paddling or sitting still, more volume makes you float higher. Neato. Surfing, not so much, you are planing on top of the water, volume and floatation don’t mean jack. For instance, the later longboards ( G&S Hot Curls and Farrelly Stringerless as examples) surfed as well as the contemporary thicker boards if not better.

Extra weight? Meaningless. How come? Well, if the additional foam in a thicker board weighs another five pounds ( two kilos) versus the weight of a 150 lb (70 kilos, more or less) rider - the weight of the board and rider change by a very small amount, on the order of 3%. The glide ( momentum, mass times volume) change is pretty much zip, the way it maintains speed across flat water has more to do with shape and drag. .Put a lot of kick in the tail rocker, to help noseriding, your glide gets worse. 

Strength, or at least initial stiffness, that might change. Double the depth of the composite 'beam; that is a surfboard, it’s gonna be stiffer and stronger. Though if you decide you want to go with lighter density (weaker and more compressible) foam, it’s gonna be a wash on ultimate strength if not initial stiffness. 

Next, we want to think about the idea of a moment arm. Like a lever. You want to pry up a board that’s nailed down, let’s say. If you use a six inch screwdriver, you’re not gonna get much done. Use a two or three foot wrecking bar, you’re going to do a lot better. Likewise, if you’re standing on the tail of a board and the nose hits some chop, it’s gonna throw you around more if that nose is further away. More leverage Similarly, if the board is just floating there and the lip of a wave hits it, you have a lot more area to resist it  that’s further out from center, so instead of being pushed under they snap more easily. 

Right- this is, of course, a vast oversimplification of everything that’s going on. Kinda like comparng a Piper Cub and a 747. But for the moment, it’ll do. 

hope that’s of use

doc…

GDaddy is right about the so-called rippable 9’0’s.   They are out at every break in the 808.  Some are even Thrusters.  Most of them made by “Local Motion” and “Town and Country”.  I’m thinking you have never seen a Yater or Haut.  Three inches down to 2.75 is the norm.  It depends on how you distribute the thickness.  There are two schools of thought(imho).  1.  Hit your maximum thickness in one spot.  or;  2. Distribute maximum thickness throughout an area of the blank.  Ie. “distribute” throughout the foil.  3" @ 23" wide distributed properly is a longboard norm.   Progressive boards drop to 2.75" or 2.5"@ 22.

“…planing on top of the water, volume and floatation don’t mean jack”

This is very interesting and probably something for me to think about more. I knew that attributes like rails and rocker function differently once up and planing, but hadn’t considered volume.

The leverage analogy makes perfect sense. 160# standing over the rear third of the board while all the wave force pushing the front two thirds around, thats a lot of stress. 

Nope, never seen those boards in person, but I get it. I have an 3" thick 8’2 thats foiled heavily in both X and Y direction. Without looking at the pencil marks, you’d probably guess it’s closer to 2.75". I’ve dumped it in 15s swell repeatedly, and not a stress fracture to be found. Had it been 2.5", Im not so sure. 

I recently found an uncommon spot of sorts here in NJ. It’s not a secret, but it’s not listed on the forecast sites nor is it visible from main roads, etc. I was delighted to see that it delivers really long sloping rights. So Im going to build a long, thin, light, single fin just for this place. 

   Outstanding!

Finished this 9’6" x 21.75" x 2.7" build yesterday and took it out for sunrise today, rode a dozen 7sec waist/chest waves. Few observations: feels like I’m riding on the wave surface as opposed to a couple inches above. 6+4/4 E glass job so it’s light, swings around quickly, and I can feel it flex. As a matter of fact, if I place it on the ground bottom up and push on the middle, it flexes a fair amount. I made this for clean small days and althought Ive never snapped a board, I dont think it would fare welll in long period winter swell. 

Rails are soft down in rear which grabs some but no hard edge I think allows the single fin to do its work and the greenough 4a felt nice. I have a 8.5" which felt too washed out so swapped it with the 9.75" which held better in this these weak waves, but does feel a bit big/slow, but there’s a real shortage right now so I may buy a 9.0" later.  Wide point rail is lower then 50/50 and soft because I wanted it to grab some but not too much. I put a boxy sharp edge on the front 16" of nose hoping it would help it plane faster and I think it worked. On the take off it slips down into the bottom turn nicely but the positioning feels more critical becasue a hair too forward and it pearls you cant really recover as well as an eggy or 50/50 front rail would. Bottom is totally flat and then panel vee varely starts about 20" from tail end, peaks at 3/16" right in front of fin base, then tapers off to flat by the tail end. One of the wave I caught today had enough power to dig the tail down on a bottom turn and it felt right. I kept the stock 98Y blank rocker, just cut 2" off the nose. Glad I did because it’s quick paddle. Plans measurements and pics attached. And this was my first cutlap glass job, wish I had started them earlier, sooo much easier to sand. I also decided to not sand my decks anymore. My fill coats arent heavy, and Im only going to wax it up when Im done, so I figured why remove resin?

Feel free to fire away with feedback. And thanks for the encouragement!

 






Good job.   You put together a combination of elements based on what you wanted the board to do and it appears the board is doing just exactly that.   

Now that you have a baseline for comparison, on your next board you can make some adjustments and see how those work for you.  You aleady mentioned swapping out the downrails in the nose for some belly and up rail in order to make it more forgiving for the drop and ride.  Another little tweak you can add is to the bottom contour - retain the flat bottom but add a little roll or chine out at the transition to the rails to smooth the ride out a bit.   

Those two minor tweaks will definitely leave a mark.   You might like that outcome or you might decide to stick with the combo you have.   Either way you’ll get a feel for what these elements are doing.   

 

So much said, in so few words.     It borders on profound.

Consider a plywood paipo, or a Greenough spoon kneeboard, or for that matter a water ski. Those work just fine, but their volume and floatation is enough to float said craft and little or no more than that. 

Huh, right? Maybe we need to look at something other than volume. 

A very tiny, very limited version of Naval Architeecture 101

Buoyancy, the static lift of the weight of water volume  displaced by the loaded hull** at rest.** I will come back to hulls and displacement, bear with me. 

Drag - the resistance to forward motion, measured as a force. Will pretty much always include  skin friction and form drag.

Hydrodynamic Lift - the dynamic upward force generated by hull contour and/or angle of attack while said hull is moving through or across the fluid

Displacement hull- a hull travelling through the water at a speed that is too slow to be climbing its own bow wave. This occurs ( with some exceptions, notably racing sailboats) when the speed in statute miles per hour is less than or equal to 4/3 x (square root of the waterline length in feet) 

For a 9 foot surfboard with pretty much no rocker, that comes to four statute miles per hour. A walk. I will get back to that too. 

Planing hull - a hull operating on top of the water, held up by the dynamic lift . Rule of thumb once again, minimum  planing speed in statute miles per hour is 2 x (square root of the waterline length in feet). For that rockerless 9 foot board I mentioned, that’s six miles per hour. A quick walk but by no means a fast run or even a good jog. 

Go below a certain speed, the tail sinks and the nose rises, you are in that transitional range between planing and displacement: the board stalls. 

So, all surfcraft in use as surfcraft are planing hulls. Period. If you are paddling them or sitting still, then and only then are they displacement hulls, functionally identical to a plank or a buoy or a freighter  They both generate lift and drag, but they do it differently…

Now, a new concept. Planing area. How much of the available planing surface is in contact with the water. If a planing surface generates lift L per unit area (less if it’s going slower, more if it’s going faster) and at a given load angle of attack and speed it will remain constant. If it goes faster, the planing area in contact goes down. Ever see a vee bottomed power boat when they get on the throttle? It rises up, less of the boat in the water. Same thing happens with a surfcraft. More power, more speed, less area needed to generate the required lift

Indeed, it really doesn’t matter much what length the board is.if the planing area in use is similar in shape.  Longboard, shortboard, whatever, the percentage of the total  available planing surface may differ but the planing area will be about the same. 

Still with me? Good. 

Lets say you have a really thick board. It will float better at rest. There may be a tiny contribution to dynamic lift along the rail  when it is planing, the contour is a little different. But volume doesn’t matter, if you made a reinforced skin that shape rather than a thick rail, it would be the same lift. It’s about the shape in contact with the water, not the volume.

But Uncle Doc, I hear you ask, what about ‘displacement hull’ boards? 

Okay, we have another concept to discuss. So called ‘surf science’. 95% of it was done by Spicoli. Stoned as a rat, he heard the term ‘displacement hull’ somewhere and maybe through a cannabis haze he saw similarities to a round botton boat hull that travelled through the water slowly. He was dead wrong. The term is bogus. It has no basis in reality. 

I said 95% of so called surf science was worthless. The other 5% pretty much comes from the late Dr. Terry Hendricks, who actually knew what he was talking about. Damned few listened to him at all and even less could follow what he was saying. A smarter man than me, kinder and more patient. Way more patient. 

For more, let me reccommend Dr. Lindsay Lord’s Naval Architecture of Planing Hulls. https://www.wavetribe.com/products/naval-architecture-of-planing-hulls

hope that’s of use to some

doc…

 

 

 

I think volume is pretty much irrelevant in midlength and longboard sizes.  Once you get to the minimum volume it takes to float you the paddling speed is more a result of the wetted surface area than float.   length x width @ rocker, not volume.   

 

But in shortboards where they’re looking for “just enough” volume to float them at chest level then volume does become a thing.  Fat don’t fly, and neither do heavy boards.   

Add the increased wetted surface area and more minimalistic volume and we end up with boards like Bert Berger was building for himself.  6-8 x 24" wide x 2" thick  Not a lot of float for a 6-4 rider but he could paddle fast.    

Jack— The statement that all longboards are so thick is false #1.  #2;  If you are correct I would think the market would be wide open for 2.5" longboards.  Also you are incorrect in your idea of what makes a longboard more maneuverable.  Thickness/thinness has no bearing on maneuverability.  And if glide was all it was about you could go with a Frye or Munoz Surftec at 11’.  Glide to hearts delight and make Frye “baby step” 1/8 turns.  But don’t attempt to cutback. Get out and ride a real longboard; turn it, trim it, hose the shortboarders out on the shoulder as you roundhouse cutback.  You just don’t have the knowledge to make statements on the maneuverability of longboards.  And it shows.

Every log I’ve owned under 3" eventually gets snapped. Doesn’t even have to be that big. Just a thick double up. I’ve resorted to holding the board rail up and taking  a beating rather than having another magic board snap or buckled by a thick lip when caught inside. But if you’re riding mush you shouldn’t have those issues… Pitas Pt casualty. 

…all longboards

I think you read the wrong thread amigo, you missed a word. :slight_smile:

 

Gdaddy, thanks. You always come through with constructive feedback and ideas. I like the idea of chine here.

Ok--  “Why are"nearly” all longboards so thick?"    What do yo mean by nearly?  One in five?  “Nearly all” infers Most or a very high percentage of.  You stated that you’ve never seen a Yater or a Haut, so that tells me that “nearly all” is an overstatement based on limited knowledge.  Where do you live?  I’ll recommend a few shops for you to cruz.  You can lay an eagle eye on some longboards that are 3" of well distributed foil and foam.