I would not have to say it but I think Reverb is right. As an ingeneering teacher I work with young guys for twenty years and see same thing as you. Not really optimistic for the futur but I am not an optimistic guy at all. I became old, I think it was better before, Socrate said same to Platon. So if some guys want to make this place alive, in good direction for my taste, I have to help them as I can.
I dont know Mcdingo , but 95% of the time he is very helpfull , unfortunatly every now and again he opens his mouth without engaging his brain , I wish he would not do that , I think Sways would be less without him .
I agree that Reverb didn't say anything that warranted that reaction. Most such disagreements shouldn't be taken personally.
With that said, Reverb is capable of handling such comments on his own. If he wants a moderator to step in he can report it. Or, if the discussion turns into a running gunbattle then the mods can step in for that reason. Or the other members can chime in and say their piece. Which you just did.
And there you have it Mike. A troll tells another poster that his thought is bullshit and he should leave, and your moderator says it's okay to have different opinions.
We told you why we don't post.
Gdaddy-
Kind of weird how you edited your reply to something different after I replied to it.
You're right, I did reconsider and edit while you were writing your other reply.
Here's the way I see comment moderation: I consider censorship and the jackbooted banhammer to be the option of last resort when everything else has failed. Reverb didn't report the comment or ask for help, and neither did anyone else until you blamed us for not reacting immediately. So the question at hand is do the mods wait for a complaint or do they go on offense and start stepping on people every time they cross someone's line? Is it my role to curate the safe space or to function as the last resort when one of these threads goes into self-destruct mode? In lieu of instructions to the contrary I have taken a relatively lower profile in these things, only stepping in when it's become the running gunbattle. Maybe that's thw wrong thing to do. If that turns out to be the case then I apologize.
Everysurfer whining about negativity and trolling has to be one of the most laughable things I've ever seen. This is a guy who earned himself an incredibly rare permanent ban from another surf website for his on-line bad behavior and trolling.
Well we have just seen what Mike does not need . Sways is an internationally known website , Mike has nursed and built up Sways at his own cost of both time and money and deserves to make money off it , but the consensus is that times have changed and Sways will never be what it once was , in my opinion Mike needs to incorporate the good suggestions about modernizing the site and monetizing it , pair the site down to make it easier , less time consuming for him to manage , put some money in his pocket and go surfing , because if he doesn't it will be ALOHA. Sways . Good luck Mike and thank you .
gbzousa is 100% correct. The bottom line is things are definitely in the balance here...and I'm figuring out what to do. Luckly I tend to measure two or three times before I cut. But a cut is coming...
I'd like to respond to a few things that have come up in this thread.
First, I appreciate all the feedback. There's some really thoughtful, heartfelt comments out there. Thank you for taking the time to write them up. They definitely help tip the balance in favor of keeping this thing alive.
Second, Huck. Holy shit man. I am truly heartbroken for your loss. Puts everything into perspective. I have a family and I don't know how folks with that magnitude of loss carry on. I hope you find peace of mind if you haven't already.
Third, moderators and moderation. I did imply in my comments that our moderators and moderation needs improvement. Let me be clear -- I think our moderators have done a great job given the tools (very few) & resources (ZERO PAY) they have. It's a 100% thankless job and I 100% agree with the less-is-more approach. Both philosophically and practically, I would never want the level of intrusion being requested in some of the comments around here. I 100% believe in the internet being a free speech platform and that trolls will be trolls.
I meant to follow up on my comment about "improving moderation" by saying it's been a long time wish to make moderation on Swaylock's more decentralized, algorithmic and less human based. By that I mean in an ideal system, it would not be dependent on a centralized human authority making decisions, but rather depend on the wisdom and actions of the crowd. But that's a hard thing to engineer, and till then, we've had to rely on humans and I'm very happy with the job they've done.
And that's all I will say about moderation in this thread. If anyone wants to continue opining about past and future moderation of Swaylock's, including useful suggestions for improvement, please do it over here in this thread
And that's all I'm gonna say for now...I want to keep this thread open to keep fielding ideas on how I might change Swaylock's to avoid the fate identified by gbzousa
I had a very successful university website/webpage that I created in 2003 to make my publications (and literature I found useful) readily accessible to the public. My site was bare bones, not pretty and certainly not flashy. It grew from 1,500 publication downloads/month to 30,000 publication downloads/month in 2 years. I retired a few years ago and without my management traffic slowed. However, the site has been preserved by the university for the last 7 years as an information archive. (But as insurance, I uploaded my most popular publications to a site for research professionals too.)
I collected download and visitor data. Speed of website access and fast publication download time caused the rapid growth. Content and speed was what kept them coming. I focused on that.
It might help to evaluate which subforums are not generating significant traffic and streamline by eliminating them.
The subforums have no bearing on the speed of the site. I could have one forum and the speed would be the same. It's the underlying platform & infrastructure.
Love reading the site but the menus and layout have never worked well on a smartphone. Currently I have to be in Landscape mode to navigate on a Samsung Galaxy. It took awhile to figure that out, and I'd just move on rather than get frustrated before I did.
Swaylocks can't promise a negativity free environment. Swaylocks can't promise a troll free thread.
but... Swaylocks can offer a forum to share and discuss, free of charge, with interested people around the globe. And while there are a lot of shades of gray, we do not tolerate anything and everything - if a line is crossed, we will move a thread, lock it down, or edit where we see fit. The line is subjective, but we all know it exists, at some point. We try to err on the side of tolerance for different opinions.
Everyone has a different point of tolerance, but my observation, for what its worth, is that if you can ignore the negative comments you will without fail be infomative to and appreciated by plenty of others. Don't think cuz of one or two negative comments that everyone is in agreement, just try to focus on responding to the comments you enjoy responding to, don't waste your energy on the rest.
This place is priceless, I would have to be dead, blocked, or the website shut down, in order for me to stop coming here.
Swaylocks is the only public forum/BB I visit anymore. FB groups are mostly social noise and get boring fast. I've been a member of several public forums/BBs since 2006. All except Swaylocks have died for one reason or another. I think Swaylocks is a valuable place of information.
However, if you start charging members to participate, the dynamic changes substantially. Moderators "work" for free -- a thankless task.. There have been, and still are, members who could charge consulting fees for the information they post -- that doesn't include the cost of writing time. Will they be willing to pay to continue providing free consultation?
The high traffic on my university website was likely because the publications could be read and/or downloaded for free. Had there been a charge for public access, traffic would have dropped substantially.
Fortunately, I was paid to develop and maintain the site. And the university hosted (hosts) the site with their software and server at no cost to me.
I understand your dilemma. It would be a shame to lose a classic forum like Swaylocks.
There have been, and still are, members who could charge consulting fees for the information they post -- that doesn't include the cost of writing time. Will they be willing to pay to continue providing free consultation?
Maybe it could be set up so that those who are just here to ask questions could pay a fee. Those who answer questions could be exempt from fees, or maybe even compensated. I have an app called JustAnswer where I get advice on appliance repair. I pay a small fee, and the techs who answer are compensated. If I don't like the answer from one tech, I can go to another. And I rate them when I'm done. Maybe swaylocks could borrow some of those features. (But there are no public threads, only private consultations - so I would definitely like to keep the public threads here if possible)
justanswer.com - check it out
I recently had to replace a faulty fan on my refrigerator. I paid a minimal fee to get advice on the repair, which would have been almost impossible for me to figure out without the guidance of a tech, so I was very happy to pay a small fee. I didn't even know what the problem was, only that my very expensive and not-very-old refrigerator wasn't working. I talked with a couple techs, and got two very different answers. I went with the one that sounded most likely to me. He referred me to a you tube video (not his video, but he provided the link). I watched the video - it wasn't the same model fridge as I had, but close enough I could figure out what I needed to do. I bought the part, and used the video to guide me in the replacement project. The fridge now works great again, and I saved a very expensive repair bill, or an even more expensive new refrigerator. I think people who need guidance on value or history of their vintage board, or advice on a repair, would gladly pay a small fee to get the info they need.
So here's a thought - maybe specific question threads could charge a fee, and those who consistently provide valid answers could be compensated in some small way. Or maybe everyone pays a small fee to participate, but those who consistently contribute in a positive way are compensated accordingly.
Heck, even just a link to contribute voluntarily wouldn't hurt. Look at all the money gofundme raises, people WILL donate voluntarily when they believe in something. A link to a finances page could show a chart representing cost of operating side by side with current donation status to keep everyone apprised.
I have a feeling people would wade through a blizzard of ads before they'll pay a subscription to a forum. The two other forums I know of who started collecting from users followed two paths.
One, a forum for diesel-powered 80's Datsun/Nissan pickups - possibly relevant here due to what I would imagine was a relatively small population of users, went under shortly after switching to a mandatory paid subscription.
The other, a homebrewing forum (probably also starting with a larger base than the datsun forum) started offering an ad-free subscription that may have included something like a branded hat or T-shirt. They are still in business. Their model seemed similar to Surfline - you could still use the forum for free but the screen had constant pop up ads. A paid subscription cleared those away and gave a better experience.
I'd be worried about a paid-only setup at this point chilling any resurgence of traffic that might otherwise be possible with a website refresh. But I'm not in marketing and don't know the first thing about running or maintaining a website.
My previous comment was based on the tendency for certain parties to engage in ad hominems. That is always the sign of a weak mind and a failed argument.
I thinks Sways needs sponsors on top of the Google ads etc. Im thinking Fiberglass Hawaii, 3M, or maybe their competitors. I would think a blank manufacturer would want a presence. I'd model the forum format after Bloody Decks. They seem to be very successful. I joined sways along time ago so I don't remember if I was forced to sign up. Bloody Decks only allows a few free views and will block you until you register. After that they can advertise you directly relevant content. Registered users matter
I just went through a hassle trying to post a link to Bloody Decks. Couldn't pate the link in the Special paste box. Then I had to hit the back button and lost my last paragraph. Shit like that has to be fixed.
Do you have good analytics for the site? What do the current statistics look like? How many active users are there and how many unique site visits is the site getting?
I honestly can't see people paying to use this forum. You'd probably immediately lose 80% of those still active because they don't want to attach a credit card to be charged.
Regarding the paid model, think of the old Photobucket website. They switched it to a paid website and like most I abandoned it when they started asking for money even though I had thousands of photos hosted there.
Do you have good analytics for the site? What do the current statistics look like? How many active users are there and how many unique site visits is the site getting?
I have great analytics going back to 2005. GA doesn't use "unique visits" any more and have replaced/rolled it up into Active users. Since January 1, 2022 there's been an average of 1,100 active users per day on the site. It's been ramping up quickly since Aug 1 and is close to 2k per day right now. Not sure why.
Alot of good comments and suggestions in this thread, many getting to the meat of things...and I like it.
First let's start with the bare facts:
As of today (and for many years), I've been loosing money on Swaylock's.
I've made up my mind (for both practical and personal reasons) I can't do that any longer.
At this juncture, I have very little time or resources to dedicate to this. That could change.
I see two options on how to move forward: Shut down the site and move on or figure out how to keep this thing up an running for the short-to-medium term and worry about bigger things down the road.
Let's unpack Option 2 a bit keeping in mind number points 1-3 above.
The goal here is tweaking things just enough to generate income to cover costs plus a little wiggle room. As of now, in my opinion, the simplest tweak is to set up a Patreon and hope for enough donations to flow per-month to meet this cost. I'm figuring something on order of $500-$1000/month. If I went this path, I would give it one month and if I can't meet those numbers, I would pull the plug.
This path assumes ZERO improvements, changes, upgrades, to the functionality of the site. It's just to keep the lights on and this jalopy running.
Looking forward, stemming the blood loss in this way will buy some time to evaluate options for improvements to the site. I think there's a much larger opportunity, both financially and culturally, that Swaylock's can (and should) evolve into. I have many ideas around what can & should be done but all of them involve considerable expense and a wholesale re-imagination of the site.
Gotta get over this first hurdle before we tackle the bigger issues...
Seems like a lot of potential here, but all the logical options involve work, time & $$. Hoping for the best, but regardless what happens, happy to have been a part. IMO Swaylocks has earned its page in surfboard history.
I'm new on swaylocks. Maybe i'm not the most indicated to give recomendations but i neither don't want that swaylock push the buton. English is not my language but I'll try to add a couple of alternatives to what already was posted. One example i take is from a cinema forum. They make founds compaigns along all the year, until get what the site requires to work (similar to partreon idea but without the one-month dead limit). Another way to cover the costs could be to make a swaylocks youtube channel and post videos with the agreement of users who make them. Another option is to have an own server. This requires some linux distros and a little help from informatical users... Is what i can add in this moment.
If you need 1000$/month to keep this free forum alive, more to upgrade it, I think you should shut down the light and close the door. Then we could said: Swaylocks.com was a part of history of surfboard shaping where many guys learn to DiY boards helping birth of diy surfboards industrie... That killed swaylocks. Everything coming and going, that's life no?
Last question you must ask yourself is if you want/can let an open source database?
I bet guys suck data know, some hoping to do a business with them.
What would the cost per month be just to keep it as a static site/reference library.
It would be a shame to see all the collective effort and sharing of knowledge just disappear, I think sways is an important part of surfing culture.
I contributed quite alot to the Trea to Sea wooden surfboard forum and it was a real bummer when it diappeared, in an ideal world it should of stayed a static site.
Maybe some sort of shareholder system say $10 per year, from my point of view if I made a small contribution I would feel more connected to Sways and therefore visit more and be inspired to contribute more often.
I just got back from tha annual Swaylocks Campout at Plaskett Creek in Big Sur this week. Attending were some of the old guard. The guys who used to contribute with build threads. The guys who carried the stoke here. The guys who made swaylocks famous. The guys who have been coming to the campout for 20 years and were here from the beginning.
The guys who don't post anymore.
The ending of the website was discussed.
Guess what the guys who made swaylocks great said?
It was pretty much universally agreed. It was what I said before. The guys who actually created the content got sick of arguing with, and watching arguments between, the guys who didn't create content. Other than Bill T and Huck, I don't think there is an active user who has ever done a build thread. I might be missing Reverb. He did one a long time ago.
Without content, nobody is going to pay to use this site. And the thought of us old guard paying you money so we can teach othrs how to build a board... I'm kind by saying that was met with eye rolls and polite chuckling.
Muting negativity and publishing good content is the only thing that's going to help.
Other than that, pull the plug and spend that money on yourself.
Mike- I'm really sorry to hear about your situation, but I fully understand it. I haven't been active on the site for some time (life got in the way & board building took a back seat) and the last year or so has me in a similar situation financially facing the same type of questions you are facing. My business is commercial construction in a somewhat rural area & the combination of the pandemic & now the inflation from the current geopolitical enviroment has absolutely decimated my business.On top of that, I hurt my back last march & haven't been in the water since (making me very grumpy). So, I'm facing the same questions as you on what to do: close the business & work for someone else; try to expand with marketing (website? radio & or tv ads?); or retire.
I realize that this site has been "a labor of love" , but everyone has a right to make money for their work. If your not making money & this is becoming too burdensome, then you should close it down (i hate to admit this because I use it when I'm building a new board & find it very helpful).
Playing "devils advocate" for a minute though, do you think that membership will drop off drastically if this becomes a "pay to play" site? I don't know how many of the members are true amateur "garage board building hacks" like me, but I would think that a majority of them would probably not pay a subscription if they're only using the site periodically.
If you do decide to "close up shop", I hope there is way for us to to download our messages beforehand. I know that I have some important information & advice from the friends I've developed on this site like BB30 & Stoneburner & others who have generously shared their knowledge with me.
My advice is simple... Do what you need to to be happy... If it's a burden, let it go... You have no obligation to anyone other than you and your family... Archive what has already been contributed, if you can... The other options you mentioned seem to me to be bailing out a sinking boat... You owe no one an explanation of your decision making... BTW, I'm going to let my website expire, it had it's time, it was an amazing adventure, but it's time has passed... No regrets, only smiles when I think of the seeds that were planted... You should feel that way too... It's part of your legacy, be very proud of that ...!!!...
If Mike is considering turning out the lights, and walking away, alot of valuable information and history will be lost. Not to mention Mike's legacy to surfboard culture. Why not hand it off to one or more individuals that will ''shoulder the burden'' of carrying ''Swaylock's'' forward? Seems to me, that's a better solution, than giving all the contributers the finger, and killing the site. The archive is valuable, perhaps not in a monetary sense, but in a cultural sense as it relates to surfboard/surfing history. Anyone?
Maybe, if it's worth your legacy and time, go through your post history, and copy/ paste it all into your own private archives.
Publish it on your own before it's gone.
That is something that does not interest me. If I have a legacy, it is that I have mentored several individuals in thier development as surfboard builders. Just as I was mentored by several Water Men of my era. Nothing more.
Ok Huck, Gdaddy, Mike and any other moderators following this thread.
Is there hope for the website, and to get the posters you want, back on the site?
Several notable posters, myself included, say we don't post here anymore, because of the hostility that is allowed.
McDing just wrote to another longstanding and contributing poster, "Take your bullshit and move on amigo".
Reverb has posted far more excellent content than this troll.
What are you going to do about it? I won't be contributing in a meaningful way until this is stopped.
Ball is in your court, gentlemen.
I would not have to say it but I think Reverb is right. As an ingeneering teacher I work with young guys for twenty years and see same thing as you. Not really optimistic for the futur but I am not an optimistic guy at all. I became old, I think it was better before, Socrate said same to Platon. So if some guys want to make this place alive, in good direction for my taste, I have to help them as I can.
I dont know Mcdingo , but 95% of the time he is very helpfull , unfortunatly every now and again he opens his mouth without engaging his brain , I wish he would not do that , I think Sways would be less without him .
I agree that Reverb didn't say anything that warranted that reaction. Most such disagreements shouldn't be taken personally.
With that said, Reverb is capable of handling such comments on his own. If he wants a moderator to step in he can report it. Or, if the discussion turns into a running gunbattle then the mods can step in for that reason. Or the other members can chime in and say their piece. Which you just did.
And there you have it Mike. A troll tells another poster that his thought is bullshit and he should leave, and your moderator says it's okay to have different opinions.
We told you why we don't post.
Gdaddy-
Kind of weird how you edited your reply to something different after I replied to it.
And a member of the former clique whines...
Gotta love hypocrisy.
Hewie had honor.
Swaylocks Surfboard Design Forum: thoughts & theories ... practical & theoretical
RAIL PROFILE http://bgboard.blogspot.com/2014/03/march-82014-afterr-seeing-recent.html
.
Still whining.
Why don't we review past flaming and trolling...
(And then he deletes his comment.)
Swaylocks Surfboard Design Forum: thoughts & theories ... practical & theoretical
RAIL PROFILE http://bgboard.blogspot.com/2014/03/march-82014-afterr-seeing-recent.html
You're right, I did reconsider and edit while you were writing your other reply.
Here's the way I see comment moderation: I consider censorship and the jackbooted banhammer to be the option of last resort when everything else has failed. Reverb didn't report the comment or ask for help, and neither did anyone else until you blamed us for not reacting immediately. So the question at hand is do the mods wait for a complaint or do they go on offense and start stepping on people every time they cross someone's line? Is it my role to curate the safe space or to function as the last resort when one of these threads goes into self-destruct mode? In lieu of instructions to the contrary I have taken a relatively lower profile in these things, only stepping in when it's become the running gunbattle. Maybe that's thw wrong thing to do. If that turns out to be the case then I apologize.
legalize free speech
Scrub it kook
Everysurfer whining about negativity and trolling has to be one of the most laughable things I've ever seen. This is a guy who earned himself an incredibly rare permanent ban from another surf website for his on-line bad behavior and trolling.
Apparently, if Mr. Miller starts posting again, Swaylocks will rise from its ashes and return to glory.
Swaylocks Surfboard Design Forum: thoughts & theories ... practical & theoretical
RAIL PROFILE http://bgboard.blogspot.com/2014/03/march-82014-afterr-seeing-recent.html
Well we have just seen what Mike does not need . Sways is an internationally known website , Mike has nursed and built up Sways at his own cost of both time and money and deserves to make money off it , but the consensus is that times have changed and Sways will never be what it once was , in my opinion Mike needs to incorporate the good suggestions about modernizing the site and monetizing it , pair the site down to make it easier , less time consuming for him to manage , put some money in his pocket and go surfing , because if he doesn't it will be ALOHA. Sways . Good luck Mike and thank you .
gbzousa is 100% correct. The bottom line is things are definitely in the balance here...and I'm figuring out what to do. Luckly I tend to measure two or three times before I cut. But a cut is coming...
I'd like to respond to a few things that have come up in this thread.
First, I appreciate all the feedback. There's some really thoughtful, heartfelt comments out there. Thank you for taking the time to write them up. They definitely help tip the balance in favor of keeping this thing alive.
Second, Huck. Holy shit man. I am truly heartbroken for your loss. Puts everything into perspective. I have a family and I don't know how folks with that magnitude of loss carry on. I hope you find peace of mind if you haven't already.
Third, moderators and moderation. I did imply in my comments that our moderators and moderation needs improvement. Let me be clear -- I think our moderators have done a great job given the tools (very few) & resources (ZERO PAY) they have. It's a 100% thankless job and I 100% agree with the less-is-more approach. Both philosophically and practically, I would never want the level of intrusion being requested in some of the comments around here. I 100% believe in the internet being a free speech platform and that trolls will be trolls.
I meant to follow up on my comment about "improving moderation" by saying it's been a long time wish to make moderation on Swaylock's more decentralized, algorithmic and less human based. By that I mean in an ideal system, it would not be dependent on a centralized human authority making decisions, but rather depend on the wisdom and actions of the crowd. But that's a hard thing to engineer, and till then, we've had to rely on humans and I'm very happy with the job they've done.
And that's all I will say about moderation in this thread. If anyone wants to continue opining about past and future moderation of Swaylock's, including useful suggestions for improvement, please do it over here in this thread
And that's all I'm gonna say for now...I want to keep this thread open to keep fielding ideas on how I might change Swaylock's to avoid the fate identified by gbzousa
While I continue to measure, I'm going to fire up a Patreon account. Please stay tuned for that...
I had a very successful university website/webpage that I created in 2003 to make my publications (and literature I found useful) readily accessible to the public. My site was bare bones, not pretty and certainly not flashy. It grew from 1,500 publication downloads/month to 30,000 publication downloads/month in 2 years. I retired a few years ago and without my management traffic slowed. However, the site has been preserved by the university for the last 7 years as an information archive. (But as insurance, I uploaded my most popular publications to a site for research professionals too.)
I collected download and visitor data. Speed of website access and fast publication download time caused the rapid growth. Content and speed was what kept them coming. I focused on that.
It might help to evaluate which subforums are not generating significant traffic and streamline by eliminating them.
Swaylocks Surfboard Design Forum: thoughts & theories ... practical & theoretical
RAIL PROFILE http://bgboard.blogspot.com/2014/03/march-82014-afterr-seeing-recent.html
The subforums have no bearing on the speed of the site. I could have one forum and the speed would be the same. It's the underlying platform & infrastructure.
Do they affect cost of operation?
Swaylocks Surfboard Design Forum: thoughts & theories ... practical & theoretical
RAIL PROFILE http://bgboard.blogspot.com/2014/03/march-82014-afterr-seeing-recent.html
Not at all.
Apparently my assumption was incorrect.
I thought server storage expenses were significant.
I did not have to pay for server storage.
Swaylocks Surfboard Design Forum: thoughts & theories ... practical & theoretical
RAIL PROFILE http://bgboard.blogspot.com/2014/03/march-82014-afterr-seeing-recent.html
Love reading the site but the menus and layout have never worked well on a smartphone. Currently I have to be in Landscape mode to navigate on a Samsung Galaxy. It took awhile to figure that out, and I'd just move on rather than get frustrated before I did.
IMO
Swaylocks can't promise a negativity free environment. Swaylocks can't promise a troll free thread.
but... Swaylocks can offer a forum to share and discuss, free of charge, with interested people around the globe. And while there are a lot of shades of gray, we do not tolerate anything and everything - if a line is crossed, we will move a thread, lock it down, or edit where we see fit. The line is subjective, but we all know it exists, at some point. We try to err on the side of tolerance for different opinions.
Everyone has a different point of tolerance, but my observation, for what its worth, is that if you can ignore the negative comments you will without fail be infomative to and appreciated by plenty of others. Don't think cuz of one or two negative comments that everyone is in agreement, just try to focus on responding to the comments you enjoy responding to, don't waste your energy on the rest.
This place is priceless, I would have to be dead, blocked, or the website shut down, in order for me to stop coming here.
100% Huck!! The unspoken spirit of Swaylock's!!
Except this part...
will be changing...
Swaylocks is the only public forum/BB I visit anymore. FB groups are mostly social noise and get boring fast. I've been a member of several public forums/BBs since 2006. All except Swaylocks have died for one reason or another. I think Swaylocks is a valuable place of information.
However, if you start charging members to participate, the dynamic changes substantially. Moderators "work" for free -- a thankless task.. There have been, and still are, members who could charge consulting fees for the information they post -- that doesn't include the cost of writing time. Will they be willing to pay to continue providing free consultation?
The high traffic on my university website was likely because the publications could be read and/or downloaded for free. Had there been a charge for public access, traffic would have dropped substantially.
Fortunately, I was paid to develop and maintain the site. And the university hosted (hosts) the site with their software and server at no cost to me.
I understand your dilemma. It would be a shame to lose a classic forum like Swaylocks.
Swaylocks Surfboard Design Forum: thoughts & theories ... practical & theoretical
RAIL PROFILE http://bgboard.blogspot.com/2014/03/march-82014-afterr-seeing-recent.html
Maybe it could be set up so that those who are just here to ask questions could pay a fee. Those who answer questions could be exempt from fees, or maybe even compensated. I have an app called JustAnswer where I get advice on appliance repair. I pay a small fee, and the techs who answer are compensated. If I don't like the answer from one tech, I can go to another. And I rate them when I'm done. Maybe swaylocks could borrow some of those features. (But there are no public threads, only private consultations - so I would definitely like to keep the public threads here if possible)
justanswer.com - check it out
I recently had to replace a faulty fan on my refrigerator. I paid a minimal fee to get advice on the repair, which would have been almost impossible for me to figure out without the guidance of a tech, so I was very happy to pay a small fee. I didn't even know what the problem was, only that my very expensive and not-very-old refrigerator wasn't working. I talked with a couple techs, and got two very different answers. I went with the one that sounded most likely to me. He referred me to a you tube video (not his video, but he provided the link). I watched the video - it wasn't the same model fridge as I had, but close enough I could figure out what I needed to do. I bought the part, and used the video to guide me in the replacement project. The fridge now works great again, and I saved a very expensive repair bill, or an even more expensive new refrigerator. I think people who need guidance on value or history of their vintage board, or advice on a repair, would gladly pay a small fee to get the info they need.
So here's a thought - maybe specific question threads could charge a fee, and those who consistently provide valid answers could be compensated in some small way. Or maybe everyone pays a small fee to participate, but those who consistently contribute in a positive way are compensated accordingly.
Heck, even just a link to contribute voluntarily wouldn't hurt. Look at all the money gofundme raises, people WILL donate voluntarily when they believe in something. A link to a finances page could show a chart representing cost of operating side by side with current donation status to keep everyone apprised.
Just thinking aloud (i.e. with my keyboard)
I have a feeling people would wade through a blizzard of ads before they'll pay a subscription to a forum. The two other forums I know of who started collecting from users followed two paths.
One, a forum for diesel-powered 80's Datsun/Nissan pickups - possibly relevant here due to what I would imagine was a relatively small population of users, went under shortly after switching to a mandatory paid subscription.
The other, a homebrewing forum (probably also starting with a larger base than the datsun forum) started offering an ad-free subscription that may have included something like a branded hat or T-shirt. They are still in business. Their model seemed similar to Surfline - you could still use the forum for free but the screen had constant pop up ads. A paid subscription cleared those away and gave a better experience.
I'd be worried about a paid-only setup at this point chilling any resurgence of traffic that might otherwise be possible with a website refresh. But I'm not in marketing and don't know the first thing about running or maintaining a website.
The one thing I'd like to see is the ability to block people. I get tired of seeing the same old ignorance from certain quarters.
merriam-webster.com/dictionary/assorted
Yeah me too.
That which can be assorted without evidence was read in an illegal magazine.
My previous comment was based on the tendency for certain parties to engage in ad hominems. That is always the sign of a weak mind and a failed argument.
merriam-webster.com/dictionary/assorted
I like the the donation idea.
Getting rid of points system seems beneficial.
I thinks Sways needs sponsors on top of the Google ads etc. Im thinking Fiberglass Hawaii, 3M, or maybe their competitors. I would think a blank manufacturer would want a presence. I'd model the forum format after Bloody Decks. They seem to be very successful. I joined sways along time ago so I don't remember if I was forced to sign up. Bloody Decks only allows a few free views and will block you until you register. After that they can advertise you directly relevant content. Registered users matter
I just went through a hassle trying to post a link to Bloody Decks. Couldn't pate the link in the Special paste box. Then I had to hit the back button and lost my last paragraph. Shit like that has to be fixed.
While speed and content are critical for traffic, "website optimization" is a valuable tool for increasing the number of website visitors.
From 2003-2005, it was still possible for me to do website optimization with my home computer, a phone modem and Google searches.
Swaylocks Surfboard Design Forum: thoughts & theories ... practical & theoretical
RAIL PROFILE http://bgboard.blogspot.com/2014/03/march-82014-afterr-seeing-recent.html
Do you have good analytics for the site? What do the current statistics look like? How many active users are there and how many unique site visits is the site getting?
I honestly can't see people paying to use this forum. You'd probably immediately lose 80% of those still active because they don't want to attach a credit card to be charged.
Regarding the paid model, think of the old Photobucket website. They switched it to a paid website and like most I abandoned it when they started asking for money even though I had thousands of photos hosted there.
I have great analytics going back to 2005. GA doesn't use "unique visits" any more and have replaced/rolled it up into Active users. Since January 1, 2022 there's been an average of 1,100 active users per day on the site. It's been ramping up quickly since Aug 1 and is close to 2k per day right now. Not sure why.
Analytics www.swaylocks.com Active Users 20220101-20220822.pdf
Alot of good comments and suggestions in this thread, many getting to the meat of things...and I like it.
First let's start with the bare facts:
Let's unpack Option 2 a bit keeping in mind number points 1-3 above.
The goal here is tweaking things just enough to generate income to cover costs plus a little wiggle room. As of now, in my opinion, the simplest tweak is to set up a Patreon and hope for enough donations to flow per-month to meet this cost. I'm figuring something on order of $500-$1000/month. If I went this path, I would give it one month and if I can't meet those numbers, I would pull the plug.
This path assumes ZERO improvements, changes, upgrades, to the functionality of the site. It's just to keep the lights on and this jalopy running.
Looking forward, stemming the blood loss in this way will buy some time to evaluate options for improvements to the site. I think there's a much larger opportunity, both financially and culturally, that Swaylock's can (and should) evolve into. I have many ideas around what can & should be done but all of them involve considerable expense and a wholesale re-imagination of the site.
Gotta get over this first hurdle before we tackle the bigger issues...
Seems like a lot of potential here, but all the logical options involve work, time & $$. Hoping for the best, but regardless what happens, happy to have been a part. IMO Swaylocks has earned its page in surfboard history.
I'm new on swaylocks. Maybe i'm not the most indicated to give recomendations but i neither don't want that swaylock push the buton. English is not my language but I'll try to add a couple of alternatives to what already was posted. One example i take is from a cinema forum. They make founds compaigns along all the year, until get what the site requires to work (similar to partreon idea but without the one-month dead limit). Another way to cover the costs could be to make a swaylocks youtube channel and post videos with the agreement of users who make them. Another option is to have an own server. This requires some linux distros and a little help from informatical users... Is what i can add in this moment.
If you need 1000$/month to keep this free forum alive, more to upgrade it, I think you should shut down the light and close the door. Then we could said: Swaylocks.com was a part of history of surfboard shaping where many guys learn to DiY boards helping birth of diy surfboards industrie... That killed swaylocks. Everything coming and going, that's life no?
Last question you must ask yourself is if you want/can let an open source database?
I bet guys suck data know, some hoping to do a business with them.
What would the cost per month be just to keep it as a static site/reference library.
It would be a shame to see all the collective effort and sharing of knowledge just disappear, I think sways is an important part of surfing culture.
I contributed quite alot to the Trea to Sea wooden surfboard forum and it was a real bummer when it diappeared, in an ideal world it should of stayed a static site.
Maybe some sort of shareholder system say $10 per year, from my point of view if I made a small contribution I would feel more connected to Sways and therefore visit more and be inspired to contribute more often.
That's basically what's happening right now...
Hi Mike,
I just got back from tha annual Swaylocks Campout at Plaskett Creek in Big Sur this week. Attending were some of the old guard. The guys who used to contribute with build threads. The guys who carried the stoke here. The guys who made swaylocks famous. The guys who have been coming to the campout for 20 years and were here from the beginning.
The guys who don't post anymore.
The ending of the website was discussed.
Guess what the guys who made swaylocks great said?
It was pretty much universally agreed. It was what I said before. The guys who actually created the content got sick of arguing with, and watching arguments between, the guys who didn't create content. Other than Bill T and Huck, I don't think there is an active user who has ever done a build thread. I might be missing Reverb. He did one a long time ago.
Without content, nobody is going to pay to use this site. And the thought of us old guard paying you money so we can teach othrs how to build a board... I'm kind by saying that was met with eye rolls and polite chuckling.
Muting negativity and publishing good content is the only thing that's going to help.
Other than that, pull the plug and spend that money on yourself.
Mike- I'm really sorry to hear about your situation, but I fully understand it. I haven't been active on the site for some time (life got in the way & board building took a back seat) and the last year or so has me in a similar situation financially facing the same type of questions you are facing. My business is commercial construction in a somewhat rural area & the combination of the pandemic & now the inflation from the current geopolitical enviroment has absolutely decimated my business.On top of that, I hurt my back last march & haven't been in the water since (making me very grumpy). So, I'm facing the same questions as you on what to do: close the business & work for someone else; try to expand with marketing (website? radio & or tv ads?); or retire.
I realize that this site has been "a labor of love" , but everyone has a right to make money for their work. If your not making money & this is becoming too burdensome, then you should close it down (i hate to admit this because I use it when I'm building a new board & find it very helpful).
Playing "devils advocate" for a minute though, do you think that membership will drop off drastically if this becomes a "pay to play" site? I don't know how many of the members are true amateur "garage board building hacks" like me, but I would think that a majority of them would probably not pay a subscription if they're only using the site periodically.
If you do decide to "close up shop", I hope there is way for us to to download our messages beforehand. I know that I have some important information & advice from the friends I've developed on this site like BB30 & Stoneburner & others who have generously shared their knowledge with me.
Hi Mike... It's been a while...
My advice is simple... Do what you need to to be happy... If it's a burden, let it go... You have no obligation to anyone other than you and your family... Archive what has already been contributed, if you can... The other options you mentioned seem to me to be bailing out a sinking boat... You owe no one an explanation of your decision making... BTW, I'm going to let my website expire, it had it's time, it was an amazing adventure, but it's time has passed... No regrets, only smiles when I think of the seeds that were planted... You should feel that way too... It's part of your legacy, be very proud of that ...!!!...
Paul
Sound advice Paul.
all the best to you, Swaylocks and all the good ppl who contributed.
Personally I'm always ready to learn, although I do not always like being taught. - Winston Churchill
If Mike is considering turning out the lights, and walking away, alot of valuable information and history will be lost. Not to mention Mike's legacy to surfboard culture. Why not hand it off to one or more individuals that will ''shoulder the burden'' of carrying ''Swaylock's'' forward? Seems to me, that's a better solution, than giving all the contributers the finger, and killing the site. The archive is valuable, perhaps not in a monetary sense, but in a cultural sense as it relates to surfboard/surfing history. Anyone?
Hi Bill,
It's been a long time. I agree that back in the day, you shared some old school wisdom on classic board building.
Maybe, if it's worth your legacy and time, go through your post history, and copy/ paste it all into your own private archives.
Publish it on your own before it's gone. It a burden to ask Mike to pay a thousand a month to preserve someone else's legacy
Then I guess we have it.
The creators of the content aren't interested in saving it either.
Pull the plug Mike.
That could be a viable option.
Swaylocks could be an investment opportunity for the right person.
Swaylocks Surfboard Design Forum: thoughts & theories ... practical & theoretical
RAIL PROFILE http://bgboard.blogspot.com/2014/03/march-82014-afterr-seeing-recent.html
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