Unofficial Asymmetrical Board Design Forum

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originalsin's picture
Joined: 10/17/2006

The Asymmetrical surfboard is nothing new, dating as far back to the 60's and the Ekstrom design.  I have done forum searches on here, found one old thread, that didn't really go anywhere.  At any rate, I have been gearing up to make, originally, two fish boards.  A dialer and a keel.  I thought this might be a great opprotunity take a crack at an asymmetrical board of my own, half dialer, half keel.  Backside dialer,frontside keel.

At any rate, thought I'd throw some pics out there, and maybe open this up to get some inspiration and hopefully good conversation on asymmetrical board design.

Thanks,

T.

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afoaf's picture
Joined: 12/19/2007

awesome thread.

I just inherited a new block of XPS and have been noodling on what to do...

I'm thinking assymetrical open-faced sandwhich...use up the last of my balsa.

that thruster is out there.

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GregTate's picture
Joined: 03/18/2004

Hey.  I'm really interested in this.  Not sure I'm ready to jump off the cliff and design a full on asymetrical until I understand more. However, I am ready to experiment with asym fin placement and maybe a little extra length on one rail.  I have some text I pulled from somewhere talking about outline and to be honest, it seemed exactly backwards to me.  I'll drop it in tomorrow.

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Personally I'm always ready to learn, although I do not always like being taught. - Winston Churchill

originalsin's picture
Joined: 10/17/2006

What I've read about this idea of design boils down to this: Take two boards, in similar design like the fish for example, one board that rides really well for you backside, and one that works really well for you frontside and combine them.  The rail outline, tail kick, fin set up and all that is specific to one half of the board.  The only information I've found on this has come from surfer mag, tsj, and a few online sources.

At any rate, I think that since most of the time people ride their boards rail to rail, backside to frontside, it makes perfect sense that the design should follow function, not fashion.  Symmetrical boards are more pleasing to the eye, but may very well be not as functional.  It's all up to the rider really, but you never know until you try right?

Since I'm making a dialer and keel, I thought it would be really cool to make a hybrid asymm. version of the two.

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sickdog's picture
Joined: 06/21/2005

Note to China: Call back those moldmakers.

 

Sickdog

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rooster's picture
Joined: 03/18/2004

I've made a few asymetricals.  Wasn't my intent, though(attempt at humor).  These boards make me go cross-eyed.  Fish boards go well backside. If a board surf's well one direction and it's symetrical, it should go the other direction, too. It's just an adjustment.  Perhaps surfers that have grown up planting their feet on a rubber pad and not needing to adjust foot position don't transition to fish boards.  I don't know, just a thought.  Anyway, hope yah'all have fun with the idea. Mike

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synergytodd's picture
Joined: 03/24/2008

originalsin wrote:

The Asymmetrical surfboard is nothing new, dating as far back to the 60's and the Ekstrom design.

At any rate, thought I'd throw some pics out there, and maybe open this up to get some inspiration and hopefully good conversation on asymmetrical board design.

 

I think I might be WAY too obsessive compulsive for this thread!

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consafos's picture
Joined: 12/04/2004

Well, they work.

http://hydrodynamica.blogspot.com/2009/05/1st-sesh-on-60-ekstrom-asym.html

and we have Carl on the job

[img_assist|nid=1043032|title=model|desc=|link=none|align=center|width=640|height=480]

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sami's picture
Joined: 08/06/2004

Finally! I've been sucking up all available info on asymetrical boards after reading the TSJ article, bounced the concept of my freind and brother, who have owned asym snowboards and sailboards in the eigthies, they said they worked, but got taken of the market because you basically need to produce two boards instead of one(goofy/regular) and fashsion/ trends also sadly seem outweigh function.

The keel dialer concept sounds great but tricky, the fin placement and the split rocker sounds a bit complicated. Keep them pics coming!

 

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originalsin's picture
Joined: 10/17/2006

Get in there Todd.  You got a guy that test rides those boards for you.  Take one of you test blanks and get with that rider, have him give you feedback on his fav board for lefts and rights and combine the outlines!

 

Thanks for the hydrodynamica blogspot link.  I knew there was another online source that I had seen before but couldn't recall.

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sami's picture
Joined: 08/06/2004

Thought this would be of interrest, The only asymetric snowboard still being built:

http://www.pureboarding.com/index.php?id=one&L=1

Anyone out there actually ridden an asymetrical surfboard, ekström or any other shapers?

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artz's picture
Joined: 02/01/2007

sami wrote:

Thought this would be of interrest, The only asymetric snowboard still being built:

http://www.pureboarding.com/index.php?id=one&L=1

Anyone out there actually ridden an asymetrical surfboard, ekström or any other shapers?

 

 I have a friend that is an avid back country skier. He has asymmetrical skis that he loves.  The snowboard is a very good idea.  My first thought was why didn't they do this sooner? 

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According to Mikki Dora Malibu went to the Dogs in 1964. The Chumash Indians will tell you it was 1664.

thrailkill's picture
Joined: 05/07/2004

The ''intentional'' asymmetrical surfboard design originated in Australia, pre-dating Carl's activities by several years.    I saw one on the North Shore, in 1963, with a Surfboards Australia label.     Carl described the design to me, in 1962, or '63, as an Austrailian ''Hook Tail'', with a different rail line, and rail length, on each side of the board.   Any Aussies out there know the deeper history of the design?

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Bill Thrailkill SHAPER SINCE 1958
TaylorO's picture
Joined: 03/18/2004

http://www2.swaylocks.com/forums/help-setting-fins-unusual-tail

Funny - This thread is/was going on at the same time.  Some where I've posted about one of mine, and with the help friends there are pictures... I'll try to find it.

I gave up.  I need a double cross reference for searching the archives...

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TaylorO

keithmelville's picture
Joined: 03/18/2004

I'm not an Aussie but I know where they write stuff down sometimes...

http://www.surfresearch.com.au/1978_McT_Asymmetric_Seanotes_Aug_p38.html

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originalsin's picture
Joined: 10/17/2006

.

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Royal's picture
Joined: 10/26/2006

this kicked off on the 'er bb as well. funny...

 

Anyway, why make only the tail asymmetrical? For example, I have a bad habit of catching my forward rail on a traditional fish when (attempting to....) snap in the pocket frontside. So, why not pull the nose in a bit to free that rail? Would also stop it from catching if sneaking in to a steep late drop backside...?

I'm sure I saw one in a post about carl ekstrom, or myerhoffer...???? found it. Look at the board, towards the nose:

I'd be doing one also, but need to free up some space - that is get rid of all the other "experimental" boards. It's a hard area to crack commercially, but for truly "tuned" surfcraft there can be no other...

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TaylorO's picture
Joined: 03/18/2004

His bed could make the picture deceptive, but I'm for the idea. 

Granted, I don't do asymmetry forward of the wide point, but I off set those.  I didn't read that whole link Keith posted, but it seemed to say asymmetry wasn't good for all around boards, as though it were to specialized.  I think that's bunk. 

I don't know enough about the full on business of surfboard making an selling, but I do know from the reaction of the average local around here, they can't get there head around it, and I'm not the one to try and convince anyone.  Although, I may have mentioned this before, it puts them in a "Catch 22," which puts me in a good light:  Many admit I surf well on my boards, but they question my boards, which would make me a really good surfer over coming my crappy equipment, which they don't want to say, nor would I, but they don't want to say my boards must work well, making me a good surfboard maker, and my "odd" boards having something to them even though they look so unorthodox...  Ha!  Either way, I try to surf my "secret" spot alone, and keep working on my research...  ;-)

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TaylorO

Royal's picture
Joined: 10/26/2006

Taylor,

 

you could be right about the bed, or that the board is in the corner, leaning at an angle away from the camera, but my point is why not? One board on one side of the stringer...to the max...?

I guess it could make it unbalanced, especially if you pulled it way in, but then the light side rail would be easier to engage...oh hell....

 

I hear you on the local thingy. Where I live is, even though some UK champs are from here, is pretty close-minded. Fish and quads are the "new" thing up here and anything - even riding a log properly - can be looked down on, let alone my short, weird, funky finned creations.....ho hum.....sometimes its better to just smile and say, "yeah, uh-huh, you're right....."

 

if they only knew...or i surfed better....lol

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TaylorO's picture
Joined: 03/18/2004

"Locals..."  Ha!

I toyed w/the idea of putting on my latest board, "If you have to ask, you wouldn't understand..."  Ha!

But, I didn't want to be too much of an arrogant asshole, if it's not to late, but they may not know...

And, I remembered the time I made it the Swayloholix anonymous, and some guy was loudly proclaiming the MVG's on my board were gimmicks... "Yeah, that's why NASA patented them, and put 'em on the space shuttle..."  Some times it seems better just to say what you said... "Uh hu, yep."

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TaylorO

consafos's picture
Joined: 12/04/2004

from http://decembersnowskates.blogspot.com

[img_assist|nid=1043090|title=asymsnowskate|desc=|link=none|align=center|width=480|height=640]

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TaylorO's picture
Joined: 03/18/2004

As for straight up snow boards... Ha!  I rode regular boards, but I used hard shell boots in regular bindings, sans the high backs... A little bit of movement, but the shell gave me the leverage I needed toe side...

As they say, back to your regularly scheduled designing...

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TaylorO

bandito's picture
Joined: 02/22/2009

On the pictures of Carl Ekstrom's assymetricals and models he shows toe in on the keel outside the nose, and the quad side toe ins come together inside the nose.  Does anybody have any scientific info on how to layout an assymetrical fin setup?

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nocean's picture
Joined: 11/18/2008

Yes same question as Bandito, just shaped my first asymmetrical board and want to know about fin setup. Im going to do a Twin setup on the toe side of board (goofy footer) which im assuming I will layout from the longest point on the board in a standard Twin position say 10 inches up to trailing edge with 1/4" toe , however it gets tricky when laying out the heel side Quad fins. Are the measurements taken from the longest point of the same side of board or are they taken from the longer toe side? hope that makes some sense heres a pic of tail, thanks for any help and info...

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jonty's picture
Joined: 03/06/2011

Have also tried a few asymmetrics, would be great to try them on a good consistent point break to see whether i got my fin positions right. They seem to work well, i have compensated, somewhat, by moving backhand fins back a touch, and frontside forward. If i was doing a quad, or twin/ quad combo, i would measure from the back point on each side. [img_assist|nid=1057896|title=asymmetric bonzer 5 glass on paulownia side fins|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=35|height=100][img_assist|nid=1057895|title=asymmetric bonzer 5 /stubby 3|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=41|height=100][img_assist|nid=1057894|title=asymmetric bonzer 5|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=305|height=640][img_assist|nid=1057895|title=asymmetric bonzer 5 /stubby 3|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=263|height=640][img_assist|nid=1057896|title=asymmetric bonzer 5 glass on paulownia side fins|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=224|height=640]sorry about photos, first time posting them, couldn't find how to remove them!

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jonty's picture
Joined: 03/06/2011

Thought this was also relevant, as asymmetrics also used to be known as can openers. Inspiration comes from the strangest places.......[img_assist|nid=1057897|title=bonzer asymmetric inspiration|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=640|height=475]

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mako224's picture
Joined: 12/26/2005

A 70s asymetrical lightning bolt copy.

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nj_surfer's picture
Joined: 01/27/2006

Greenlight Brian's been doing a few asyms lately... maybe he'll post 'em up.

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originalsin's picture
Joined: 10/17/2006

Concerning fin set up that I went with,

Although I don't have a picture handy, I did half traditional fish outline, and other half double wing/bump fish that was a couple inches shorter. 

On the traditional I used one keel fin, routed the fin box just the same as I would a Keel twin fin, only on box on that side.

As for the shorter double wing/bump side, I used a quad layout ProBox Larry had given me.

Not sure if this helps, but as for the performance it worked great.  Wish I still had it, it was snapped in two after passing it around for friends to try, lots of heavy use.

I'm thinking about doing another one, I still have the templates. EPS/Epoxy with a kevlar deck patch!

T.

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thirdshade's picture
Joined: 06/08/2005

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Willbaylis's picture
Joined: 03/09/2009


This one is a bit of an experiment so I haven’t gone to extreme with the outline. The curve on the heel-side only accelerates after the trailing edge of the front fin. I’m still trying to make up my mind about the fins; I’ll even go safe with a symmetrical thruster/quad or crazy with a keel on the toe and half quad (maybe cutaway speedialers) on the heel.

Dims - 6'2" x 19 3/4" x 2 1/2"

http://www.willpoweredshapes.blogspot.com/

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thrailkill's picture
Joined: 05/07/2004

willbaylis wrote:

''... keel on the toe and half quad (maybe cutaway speedialers) on the heel.''

Sounds good.    Go for it.

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Bill Thrailkill SHAPER SINCE 1958
macpac's picture
Joined: 01/13/2005

Get a link to Vinny Bryan, 1968, asymmetrical  board for the Honolua Bay contest- (Won the contest)-As far as I know, Vinny made the first contemporary  one I ever saw, and I didn't  see another  one for at least 4 years-I believe it was 6'8"--Anyone with other data on this board, please shout--Mac

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GregTate's picture
Joined: 03/18/2004

interesting.  Love to see a pic.

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Personally I'm always ready to learn, although I do not always like being taught. - Winston Churchill

speedneedle's picture
Joined: 09/18/2004

There's some interesting Asymetrical variations amongst these, by Bob Cooper -

JD

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ghostshaper's picture
Joined: 03/20/2004

I want to do an asym twinzer. Kind of a small difference: fang Jobson-style tail on my heelside, round on my toeside. 5'6 x 19.5" short, fat groveler.

 

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GregTate's picture
Joined: 03/18/2004

based on my last one ( a round tail), I don't think that is enough asym in the outline to feel much of the asym.  I think you will need to go a bit more asym with it.  below are a couple of shots of my asym on the right next to its test partner on the left. I just barely feel the outline asym.  I do feel the fins, though (offset and you can see).  it was a shot in the dark.

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Personally I'm always ready to learn, although I do not always like being taught. - Winston Churchill

PlusOneShaper's picture
Joined: 03/19/2004

We've been working with Carl Ekstrom and he's done some crazy asymmetrical boards:

First one is a Simmons type hull but modified to a customer's specs:

[img_assist|nid=1059434|title=Carl Ekstrom with Scott Bass' Quad/Twinzer fish. Scott says it works unreal!|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=0|height=0]

 

 

 

 

 

 And this one is more performance fish like: 

 

[img_assist|nid=1059435|title=This board is more of a performance fish rather than Simmons style board|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=0|height=0]

 

 

 

 

This last one is what we've been focusing on in my shop, a shortboard

with more vert performance in mind...

[img_assist|nid=1059436|title=Post-lamination, this Asymmetric shows the two-tailed approach|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=0|height=0]

 

 

 

  

I think this one was 5'2"/5'4" (been writing down 2 lengths,) but was derived from a

5'10" regular board.

[img_assist|nid=1059437|title=Our finner Pat, puzzling with the offset center fin box for a thruster A_Symm|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=0|height=0]

 

 

 

  

The empasis of the center fin on the "toe side" rail was to give that side more

drive, but to offset this drive (and the opposite of was Carl was doing then) the

rocker off the tail was flipped (increased) about 3/8"

[img_assist|nid=1059439|title=5'4"/5'2" x 20-1/4" x 2-1/8" Goofy foot version.|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=0|height=0]

 

 

 

  

Sorry he's goofing off in this shot, but it shows the overall outline.  Basically a

round pin on the toe side and a favorite hybrid fish with a wing on the heel.  The

last 3 boards have shortened noses to get quicker swing which in turn allows for

less mid/tail rocker which in turn yields more speed.  Note also that the heel side

is shorter, BUT has less tail rocker off the tail (and between the feet.)

Now, before jumping to the conlusion that these boards are wild, the feedback

has been that they handle quite well.  They also paddle well which is a good sign.

I liked the comment that "if I closed my eyes, the board feels like a normal board,

but turns better and has more speed..." 

I want to also note that Carl Ekstrom and Chris Ahrens have been onto this for a

long time and that I'm just a short-timer on the newest ones (I did a few in the late

70's but not this crazy and was not as aware as now.)  Carl is great to work with, just a

class-act all the way, I really like his model-making, he was totally liking our computer

modelling so I'm stoked to report that he is up-to-date in that area.

Regarding the Vinny Bryan comment, there were a lot of creativity along those same

lines in our zone here too, and Benny Ferris and Jon Riddle made a lot of their Edge

Boards as asymmetricals, some VERY radical, which worked well but were superceded

by the next week's new thing,  ha ha.

So anyways, a lot has been going on lately, I got my newest personal A_Symm done

and hope to test it soon, maybe I'll post some pics if interested, it's 5'6"/5'8" x 19-1/4" x 2-3/8"

With what's been found out so far I know the design push has been going in the right direction.

Thanks,

George

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girvin's picture
Joined: 07/04/2008
George looks great the middle fin move makes my brain hurt. I am working on a diamond tail for my heelside and a thumb for toe but am moving shops so maybe in a couple of weeks.
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ghostshaper's picture
Joined: 03/20/2004

Have any of you guys thought about changing the toe in on the fins? I was originally thinking of a swallow on one side and round on the other (see pic below) and then totally changing the template on the round side, since the center line from nose tip to tail tip would be shifted. Since the rail line would be longer, then the wide point should move back and the toe should be moved out. I can't figure out what less toe in would mean when you're turning on the other rail. 

From Rusty's blog:

Asymmetrical: Who says tails have to be symmetrical? My first board was an Ekstrom asymmetrical. I've built a few over the years and had a couple good riders swear by them. I made myself one last year and had a blast on it. Swallow wing on the frontside, roundtail on the backhand. Drive and release toe side, shorter, power arcs heelside.

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Feraldave's picture
Joined: 03/18/2004

nice Discussion guys, in the early ninetys i had a local customer who was known as "crazy dave"! being known as "feraldave" we had quite a synergy.. he had me create him all kinds of assymetrical performance thrusters, we started out just moving fins, then fin templates and on to outlines as well. i wish i written down some of the stuiff i learned then, i didnt even take photos.. those day as i was beggining to to try to crack a market, experimenting and unusual looking boards were seen as a negative and scared potential customers.

 thanks to todays trends and market we can do amazing and fun experimentation and customers respect you for it... i did a assym mini sim/style commander combo a while back, i challenged my self to make it and cut it on my aps3000. it was actually really easy to do and totally repeatable. i will try dig up some pics. i know that it went insane and as someone else said if you close your eyes it went like a normal board only better!

 im really tempted to do a couple in my Dynocore™ tech  glassing now.. i would love to do an assym 3 channel/pintail for a couple of bali/ Glands famous lefts to try out!

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TaylorO's picture
Joined: 03/18/2004

I'm confused, I heard asymmetrical board were like nose riders, "one trick ponnies," that only went one way....

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TaylorO

Feraldave's picture
Joined: 03/18/2004

TaylorO wrote:

I'm confused, I heard asymmetrical board were like nose riders, "one trick ponnies," that only went one way....

 its ok, i heard hpsb are only for pros in good waves...

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Willbaylis's picture
Joined: 03/09/2009

ASYM.1_FinishedASYM.1_Outline

Here’s my first Aysm. I've set the fin boxes out so it can be ridden as a symmetrical thruster or quad on the heel and performance twin (M.R TFX)/keel on the toe-side.  

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consafos's picture
Joined: 12/04/2004

Will,  that's a really nice, clean looking shape and the fin box madness is fantastic- the Chipper will love that action!

Dave, if you find photos of those early boards please post 'em, I'd love to see that stuff.

As always, it's fantastic to know people are out there doing this stuff.

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Willbaylis's picture
Joined: 03/09/2009

Thanks for the kind words consafos. All being well I'll get it in the water this coming weekend and I'll come back with a ride report.

I'm not sure if its just my screen but the second image is showing up squashed. Here's a link to the scaled design... http://2.bp.blogspot.com/--S9R0DKUixE/Tftbv-LJNcI/AAAAAAAAAf0/3YHuvR6GquY/s1600/Asym_Artwork_Avocado.png

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Willbaylis's picture
Joined: 03/09/2009

Summer swells and heavy workload mean I’ve only just got around to getting it into some decent surf, so here’s the belated ride report for you.

 

After my first wave any thoughts of the board feeling uneven were washed away. Instead, it feels more like it flows between two different boards, fast and loose on the toe and more solid on the heel. I’ve yet to try it a symmetrical thruster, as the M.R TFX’s and SF4’s setup is working great at the moment. It feels like the fin area is spot on.

 

On the whole I’m pretty psyched on this one! I’m now starting to think about how I can work some of these design principles into my next Mini Simmons.

 

Cheers.

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GregTate's picture
Joined: 03/18/2004

Nice work Willbaylis.  My next shap will be an A_sym Mini Sim too.  I want to keep it simple though, in keeping with the simple design of the MS.

It will be hard to go back to a symmetrical board for me.

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Personally I'm always ready to learn, although I do not always like being taught. - Winston Churchill

ghostshaper's picture
Joined: 03/20/2004

Just finished this: 5'6 x 19 1/2 x 2 3/8. Round tail on heel side/squash on toe. It's going to be a quad with symmetrical fin boxes (one variable at a time). I'm looking for more hold and smoothness in frontside roundhouses, but some squirt on my backside top turns.

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EntropyFletch's picture
Joined: 01/30/2007

Ghostshaper, I made myself almost the exact same board, but a few inches bigger. I kept my fins symmetrical as well as I just wanted to mess with one variable at a time. The board works great, I love it!

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BarrySnyder's picture
Joined: 02/21/2009

These boards are from the Windigo booth at the last Sacred Craft Show at Del Mar. My Ayso. "Einstien" Model. Both boards are 5'10" toe side. 5"8" heel side x 20" x 21/2".Heel side is a Tri-Fin with more tail rocker.. Toe side is a Quad-Fin with a flatter fish style rocker. . Barry

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Barry Snyder

Surfboards made by hand. Not machine.

http://barrysnyderdesigns.com

Instagram @barrysnyderdesigns

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