I hope not but it has not sounded to good for em. I really appreciated their customer service and custom rocker set up, They seemed to be trying really hard to be a major player in the blank industry. I hope they can make it.
ICE 9
They set up a nice factory. Their rocker program was dialed in and their foam really improved. Just when they got it all figured out it they seem to haved disapeared?
The heads of ICE 9 are very strong business men. Most financial minds say it take a good 5 years to make a profit with a tangable business and the first 3 years are the most difficult. I hope for them that the are only restructuring? Those guy's worked pretty hard. I expected them to be standing with US Blanks and Surf Blanks America?
However despite how good one becomes at making blanks there will never be any real money in it like the Clark days when they had 80% of the world market. It's so fragmented now and with all the imports were as in the past Clark was not only the local producer but the number one exporter as well. Blanks are made the world over now as the surfing culture continues to grow beyond the imagination! Not only that we have Marko, Austin, White Hot and US Blanks EPS to boot. Not to mention board sales are down 65%?
By January 2010 it will be interesting to see how it all plays out? Who will still be standing?
[quote="$1"]
However despite how good one becomes at making blanks there will never be any real money in it like the Clark days when they had 80% of the world market. [/quote]
Just wondering... Do you really think that G.C. was making any 'real money' selling blanks? Is everyone just assuming the G.C. made money because he had market share? His prices were cheaper and his foam was lower quality- could he really have been making 'real money'?
Think about it? He had a captive market for one. They had good pricing however they were extremely efficient in there operations. Plus G.C. owned the land the building so no lease payments. They milled there own stringers.
The volume was such that they would maintain a steady production flow.
Blank companies of today have Lease Payments - Market Dilution plus imported foam to compete with.
G.C. had 80% of the world market = Monopoly! Monopoly means wheel barrells of green backs.
G.C. is also a land barron from the fruits of his labor. As far as I'm concern the man was brillant.
Why do you think so many people jumped on the band wagon to be in the blank business?
They all saw the wealth that G.C. aquired and based their business projections on his success.
The only problem was the market became diluted and the learning curve was much steeper than anyone imagined. During 2006 when all the new blank companies popped up we experience shrinking, yellowing, hot glue ups along stringer lines, messed up rockers, pukas, heavy resin sucking and a few other things. This helped to strengthen the EPS market and diluted the PU market even further.
Now we have boards produced overseas with PU, EPS and XPS made in there home countries.
During the G.C. years this element did not exist like it does today. The playing field has changed completely in a matter of a few years. I sometimes wonder if G.C. had a vision of when to get out because his timing was better than that of a Harvard MBA!
The sad part is a lot of well meaning business minds jumped in at the end of a great era of board building. This reality lesson has caused many business shut downs for good. There really is only room for a couple blank companies to trive and have a reasonable business from it.
Speaking of California of course.
Hmmmm. I'm not saying your wrong but, I don't really agree with all that you claim.
I don't have any knowledge regarding whether G.C. owned that property or not so I can't argue that point.
Here are some facts that make it difficult for me to swallow your asertation that G.C. was rolling in dough.
1. The single largest expense in making a blank is the cost of the Urethane Resin components. While it may have been possible for G.C. to economize and make his organization very effecient, it would not have been possible for him to pay less than 'market rates' for resin. This is equivilant to the pricing on barrells of oil. The price is the price. Some of the large volume customers do get price breaks but they are marginal and don't really effect things that much. Bottom line is if 65% of the cost of your product is a raw material traded as a commodity and your customers will only pay so much for that product it makes it difficult to keep you profit margins as high as you would like.
2. 80% of the worldwide market? I have heard folks toss this number around A LOT and I don't know where they get this number from? I just can't see how it is possible for this to be real. I agree that G.C. had a pretty good grip on the SoCal/Norcal markets but worldwide? Let's do some math...
-Let's say there are 10 Million surfers worldwide. (Actually according to recent estimates it's really 20M but for the sake of argument let's say 10M)
-Let's say the 'average board lasts for 3 years
-This means the worldwide demand for blanks would be 3.3 million yearly (10M/3)
-Let's assume that only 50% of these are P.U. = 1.6M
-G.C. had 80% of this = 1.3M
- This would mean that in order to keep up with this level of demand Clark foam would have to produce approx 5100 blanks a day.
Now I know he had a good team but. ... 5100 a day? When those guys were runing 3 shifts they claim they could produce up to 800 a day (I find this number to be an exageration but maybe it's possible.
On top of that Burford & Surfblanks and others in Au & S.A. have/had been blowing concurrently and I believe had more than 20% amongst them.
I agree with you that G.C. was a smart man but I think he decided to call it quits because, by his own admission he was facing legal action and probably the fact that he was getting up there in years and was just ready to retire and start enjoying life at his ranch.
Others jumped in because there was a 'hole' that they thought they could fill. Market dilution was a result of the closure NOT the cause of it I.M.O.
I think the margins and the profits that G.C. realized are/were far lower than most people realize. Which is why I agree with your final statement - there is only room for a couple of companies-especially in these difficult financial times.
Hodad you don't know me from adam? First of all he did own the property check the public records it became very valuable since he bought it in the 60's..His ranch over a 1,000 acres? Plus he has a place in Hawaii? He wasn't some Jerry Springer low life.
Second 80% was the number that was tossed around and it was in fact at that level for many years. From what I was told by people that worked their the number was around 1000 per day. Was it true?
Sure there was Midget, Burford, Bennett, Esikmo and so on who came in latter years. Maybe it was 60% or less when he closed I don't know exactly I was just trying to express a point that many business people jumped in the game based on some crazy numbers that were not relevent in todays enviroment.
As far as him shutting down it was said due to a law suit from a worker who warmed up his burritos in the same micro-waved use for heating up the TDI and he died and G.C. got sued. G.C. was insured and could have made it through the law suit despite the tragic event that transpired. (MDI became the buzz shortly after) It seems that it was time for him to get out while he was ahead of the game which he did. This appeared to me as a person with some kind of vison. Maybe my statements are conjecture? I met G.C. when I was 15 years old at the Laguna Niguel Factory and he made a good impression on me and I have great respect for the man regardless of what other may say or think of him.
Pick me apart if you like?
It sounds to me like were saying the same thing but from a different view point?
Hodada;---------------
Sorry to the rest of you to "vent'. But give this idiot an inch and in no time at all he'll be the NEXT friggin expert (of which we have quit a few already). Lowel Oregon/Maui
Lowell (McDing): I like the way you call the kettle black! I was speaking in context of past decades starting from the 60's. Hodad is mean spirited or born more recently and is not able to see the historical perpective that I was coming from. I was trying to maintain my cool and wish I had the Large Gorilla size Balls that you are carring to vent as boldly as you did.
You have my respect!
Surfding
[quote="$1"]
I hope not but it has not sounded to good for em. I really appreciated their customer service and custom rocker set up, They seemed to be trying really hard to be a major player in the blank industry. I hope they can make it.
[/quote]
Back to the topic at hand...
We just ordered a bunch of ICE9's this week to stock up again. They're still around and refining their business to take it to the next level.
Good foam, good service, good people... ICE9 should be around for a long time.
Certainly isn't easy these days.
~Brian
Ding(s),
I apologize if you feel that I came across as “Mean spirited” or “Arrogant”; that was certainly NOT my intent. I just wanted get some clarification and debate in a civil way the contention that G.C. really made a windfall in the blank business, I didn’t mean to start a war.
Of course you have a right to voice your opinion and I respect that however, if you feel I’m wrong, how about trying to correct/educate me (& perhaps others too). No need for name calling and profanity.
Life is too short to get stressed out over this stuff.
Hi Greenlight and everybody else.
I’m in pretty regular contact with Stu at Ice Nine, and they continue to supply key accounts. What makes you a “key” account? People that order your product and PAY for it. Stu ran a delivery to Santa Barbara last week or the week before, and regular shipments are going to San Diego and obviously to GL for distribution. Reorganizing certainly makes sense in this volatile economic climate.
As far as the Clark Foam thing…I don’t have any qualms believing that Grubby did in fact purchase the land the factory sat on, located just off the freeway up there on the hill. He probabl got a terrific price bck when he bought it. My understanding was that it was Hobie that got GC going on the foam thing and the rest is history. I spoke with Grubby duringthe 80’s while becoming pretty successful at manufacturing sailboards, and I felt that Gordon, along with Dick Morales (RIP), Matt, and others really ran a great company for us consumers. I have no way of knowing if his market share was as large as some speculate, but he certainly had a strong grip on the domestic supply and I know he supplied many other parts of the world.
As far as the stories that drited around, some of them are probably truer than others. My understanding was that blank production output could reach 1,000 per day when things were humming and that Clark was realizing a profit of $35 mil. per year. If this was the case, and depending upon when and how many years he realized this type of profit, he certainly could have done what many other surfer businessmen (Hobie, Bruce Brown, Flippy Hoffman, etc.) did and diversify into other investments, real estate in particular.
As far as crunching numbers to determine the possiblity of GC amassing considerable wealth, it is an exercise in futility and conjecture at best, because you and I have absolutely no idea what his unit cost really went out the door at. I may have been paying $35 to $60 per blank for something that cost him 1/3 to 1/7th that price. No one here REALLY knows.
Clark’s service was terrific, and they were very receptive to what their customers needs were. The modern blank companies would be well advised to study Clark’s history of how they treated most of their customers. I’m sure there will some that had bad experiences that they could write in and harp about, but by and large, the majority of both large and small Clark customers were supplied with good quality consistent product that helped advance the whole sport and industry.
…actually, no one is taking into account that Clark also offered sheet foam material in different densities that could be scored, perforated, pre sawn, and other options that went to different industries. The Voyager ultralite airplane that flew around the world was made of Clark Foam as well as Yater’s commercial fishing boat, as well as remote controlled model planes and boats, and other applications. Although the majority was, his business wasn’t enitrely based on surfboards.
I don’t want to be the bearer of bad news, but I spoke with one of the owners lately, and it seems as if they are going to be shutting down. Don’t quote me on this - I am just passing along what i heard from them.
Anyhow - I guess i should take this opportunity to say that Malama Surf Blanks is back producing soy blanks again. The formulation has been tweaked a bit and is now better than ever. There were many concerns about certain issues with this foam before . . . let me just say that over 50% of the surfboards i have shaped in the last 2-3 yrs. have been with our soy foam. The stuff is awesome in the shaping room, and even better in the water. Between Ned and I, we have shaped over 200 boards with the foam personally and have only experienced major issues on 2 boards, which we gladly replaced. On our new website there is a section called ask Ryan with FAQ’s that address most of the issues people have had with airbrushing and such. Shapers and surfers need to be aware that this foam is as good if not better than any other foam on the market. Give it a try.
you go boy! haha. it really doesn’t matter weather or not Grubby made any money (even though we all know he did). The point is surfboards are all made overseas with traditional toxic chemistry. . . and you all keep buying them because they are cheap. Its the almighty dollar that has this whole entire market on the backburner. . . throw in the economic situation and its pretty much all gone to hell. Its not like blank manufacturers are the only ones who have been going out of business guys. . . glass shops and shaping bays have been closing and consolidating in droves. Stop waisting your time talking about who had what - its now about where that what is and how do we get it back! ? ! Shop local! Be ocean minded . . . in other words stop using TDI blanks that kill your shapers, blank manufacturers, glassers, and landfills! Go to Rerip.com. Use products that are proven to be better in so many ways. MDI plant based foam that works and has serious advantages. This is not a marketing ploy - it is a wake up call.
“Be the change you wish to see in the world.”
Tell me about it------------
“Shapers and surfers need to be aware that this foam is as good if not better than any other foam on the market. Give it a try.”
Bring one by, I am in O.B.
The point is surfboards are all made overseas with traditional toxic chemistry
Chemistry? MDI VS TDI? Sounds like your using the Green Card in your marketing campaign?
Be ocean minded . . . in other words stop using TDI blanks that kill your shapers, blank manufacturers, glassers, and landfills!
!Are you kidding? Do you wear a wetsuit? Do you even know the founder of Ocean Minded?
MDI plant based foam that works and has serious advantages.
I can’t beleive you really believe what your saying?
You would bankrupt any board builder in a heart beat.
You shaped 200 boards (WOW).
I’m scared to death to use MDI (Yellow, Shrinking, Heavy).
There are other more advanced materials than PU (TDI or MDI).
You diss us for bringing up history or looking into the past?
For one the study of history helps direct us from repeating the same mistakes hopefully.
I also read materials from futurist.
We are only commenting here so lighten up.
I did not say light up as it seems that your already doing that!
**
**
Shapers and surfers need to be aware that this foam is as good if not better than any other foam on the market.
IF YOUR FOAM IS SO GREAT HOW MUCH OF IT IS THE SAN CLEMENTE CREW BUYING?
COLE, BIOLAS, PATTERSON, HAMISH ARE THE GUYS I TRUST. WHAT FOAM ARE THEY USING AND WHAT %?
THEN WE HAVE RUSTY, MERICK, BILL JOHNSON, DOC, JC, BOB PEARSON, STRETCH USING WHO’S FOAM?
THIS IS INDUSTRY NOTES SO DON’T TAKE THIS TOO HARD. JUST THINK ABOUT WHAT YOUR SAYING!
I’M TIRED OF ALL THE FALSE PROMISES.
BELIEVE ME I’VE HEARD IT ALL!
**I trust Deadshapers intel more than yours. **
I’m in pretty regular contact with Stu at Ice Nine, and they continue
to supply key accounts. What makes you a “key” account? People that
order your product and PAY for it. Stu ran a delivery to Santa Barbara
last week or the week before, and regular shipments are going to San
Diego and obviously to GL for distribution. Reorganizing certainly
makes sense in this volatile economic climate.
**Malamafoam’s quote:
**
I don’t want to be the bearer of bad news, but I spoke with one of the
owners lately, and it seems as if they are going to be shutting down.
Don’t quote me on this - I am just passing along what i heard from
them.
I heard they were reorganing as well?
Ah, f-ck everyone…I’m shifting to yucca.
P.S.
By the way, who the hell IS Sonic Foam?Do they even have a site?
**Just what we need, another friggin’ blank company!
**
hey bruce ding ‘’ this guy comes on here hes got 5 posts & he straight away f%%ks himself haaaaa’’
**beter yet lets give him some props for being an idiot’’
**
McDing- Thanks for the "De-Post". I appreciate that
D.S. - Thanks for your informed input as well. I had not even considered the sheet foam sales NOR the Real Estate Diversification concept. I think you are right about that.
I hope the guys at I9 find a way to make it work. They have dedicated a lot of time, effort & $ to bring their product to market and it would be a shame to see them go away.