CNC Machines - Viability

Industry Talk
1

Hello,
My name is Guilherme, and i´m from Santa Catarina, Brazil.
I follow the forum for a long time, but now i´m going to you to ask for some help or information.
I´m a Industrial Designer, and I had worked for a long time in the naval industry, as Production Manager in a Yachts Shipyard, and my principal interest was the CNC machine, that I helped to build (It was the second bigger in the world, a milling envelope of 33mx9mx3,5m).
When I left the company, I got specialized in a various types of CNC Machines, Surboard Milling Machines, Vinyl Cutters, Pen plotter, Wood Milling, etc… focused in low cost x right performance machine.
I did some machines, including low cost surfboard cnc, and i´m wondering if there in Californi could be Surfboard Builders/Factories interested in that machines.
My idea is to invest some time in US producing a limited series of machines, maybe 5 or 6.
I have the project of 3 kinds of machines, everyone with his own particularities, that can help diferent kinds of shapers.
I think that this is a good idea, mainly because I can build a machine very cheaper than the machines in the market.
What do you think about my idea?
It is possible? Is viable?

The first machine that I did, very low cost

->http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BvHYGMOpjw

This is my webpage, under construction, and in portuguese, but is interesting to see the pictures

-> www.gaztecnologia.xpg.com.br

Sorry if i wrote someting wrong.
King regards
Guilherme Zaniboni

2

Hello Guilherme, 

I love your ambition. However in California there are so many machines now. The market is flooded. Most production is done in Asia these days. Sure we have a fair amount of Custom boards we build. The cutting houses are operating at about 50% capacity. With high rent prices and overhead being the factor that detrimines one business plan your machine would have to be pretty cheap. You would need to offer Shape 3D www.shape3d.com with your machines or Board Cad www.boardcad.org . You will also need to retro-fit a dust collection system as well. Most shapers big or small are using machine services. The surf market is a hard road to travel. However it looks very attactive on the surface.

The Brazilian machines were big at one time however are being replaced by AKU Shapers (Jimmy Freeze), APS 3000's (Miki) and 3DM Machines (John Yow). Then we have (Joe Bee) in Long Beach who has a machine he's built. Up in the North West we have Mean Shapes (MIKE) who is offering a machine as well. Get your price out there and see what the response is? You never know unless you throw it out there?

Good Luck!

 

Surfding 

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I love the idea of a cheap cnc machine. I’ve been toying with the idea of building my own based on a well tested design, but have postphoned it. That said, as others pointed out there are alot of machines on the market today ranging in price from $15000 to $x000000. To break into that market you would have to have some novelty to your design, some real improvment or a price well below the others. From what I see of the video, your design is pretty similar to the DSD machine but with a more lightweight frame and different holding system. From what I see I don’t know why your machine would be much cheaper to produce than the DSD machine. Sure you save a little on the frame, however you have other solutions such as cable chains which are more expensive (not by alot, but still) than the DSD machine solution. The manufacturing cost of these machines may not reflect the sales price on these machines at all.

For what it’s worth I think it’s doable IF you get in touch with the right people.

regards,

Håvard

5

I’ve got an old “Etch A Sketch” from the 60’s.

Maybe I can layout a design on it, and we can figure a way for it to interface with your machine?

Are there Universal Plugs that will work?

6

Dust off the old pantograph and clean the old plugs !!!!!!!!!

7

Advanced key copying approach?

Take your shaped magic down to the key shop or local hardware store?

8

Guys,

Sorry about the late answer,

I was working hard in the machines, and I´ve forgot this post.

 

Let´s go..

 

Surfding - I know that there in California is full of machines, because of this my intention is to go to the plan "B", like I did in Brazil. The market is quite different, there in US you have the money, and of course, many machines. Here, the people likes the machines, they need it, but don´t have the money to invest.  My plan "B", that i´m doing here is a very simple machine, that mill all the deck, bottom and rails, but not the stringer. This makes the machine cheaper. The structure seems like a Pantograph, but still a CNC. Here in Brazil, the machine costs something like US$10000,00, without the CAD/CAM program and the controller (A simple PC with windows XP). And what we do to make the process cheaper is a "Machine file house". Is a place where the shapers send the board file, to get the machine file with a low cost. I mean, the shaper pays about US$2,00 per file and don´t need to buy a CAM program, that is payd by the "Machine file house" (This cost is rated by the sold files).

Of course that for the sucess of this is necessary a padronization on the machines.

What you think?

Of course the easyest way to make this is find a partner.. Anybody interested? hehehe

There´s some fast renders of this machine... Take a look

 

 

Haavard - The manufacturing cost of these machines may not reflect the sales price on these machines at all. That´s the goal, the people want to earn a lot of money, here in Brazil, I think that the final price is incredible superior of the costs. Really incredible.

 

What you think about the "Plan B" - a technological inclusion?

 

Regards

Gazola

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Yeah, I´m in process to patent the project here in Brazil,

The thing sounds very interesting, I see many people Doing It Themselves… this could be a great idea.

The other point, to produce the machine here in Brazil could be a problem, with the taxes and transport, the machine price will be at least 2x than a machine produced in the US.

I think that the really better way to do is… Find anybody that can assembly and produce the machine according to my plans…

That´s my opinion, but… is just a oppinion

11

…with the DSD machine you have that “machine file house”…

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Yes, But you need to buy the software..

:/

13

Come to the USA and see exactly whats going on?

The steel on my machine just for the frame cost more than your machine.

Service is key now days. I highly doubt you would be able to sell your machine to a cnc cutting house or medium size board company. The garage guys that use a cutting services spend less than $500 per year. To recover the cost of $10,000 would take 20 years.

Plus the DSD machines are being replaced with machines that do the stringer. It's worth the extra money for a good machine. What if you build a better machine and priced it under $30,000 that interfaced with Shape 3D and cuts the stringer? Not a toy but a machine! Then you might sell a few. QUALITY FIRST!

We can buy a cnc kit here in the states for about $7,000 and build a machine to mill surfboards however it won't do the stringers and the software is not included. A friend of mine built his own and after 2 years he gave up and just uses a cnc cutting service that has a good machine with solid software interface!

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Answered in Italic in the body of the quote...

[quote="$1"]

Come to the USA and see exactly whats going on?

I would like to make a research first. Is quite stupid in my point of view leave my company alone and go to US without a previous research...

The steel on my machine just for the frame cost more than your machine.

If the company wants, I can do a very strong machine, but is not the goal for the time, I´d projected a machine that is pretty similar to AkuShaper, but again, cheaper. If the company wants, I can produce it easely, but like I said, is not the goal for the time, the goal is produce machines that every company can buy, like a Epson or HP printer.

Service is key now days. I highly doubt you would be able to sell your machine to a cnc cutting house or medium size board company. The garage guys that use a cutting services spend less than $500 per year. To recover the cost of $10,000 would take 20 years.

Plus the DSD machines are being replaced with machines that do the stringer. It's worth the extra money for a good machine. What if you build a better machine and priced it under $30,000 that interfaced with Shape 3D and cuts the stringer? Not a toy but a machine! Then you might sell a few. QUALITY FIRST!

Mate. The low price not always means low quality. The project that I wrote in the top of the post is similar to AKU, almost  all the CNC machines can work with Shape3D or boardCAD, what matter ir the controller, if the controller open .nc or .ncc files, the machine can work with it.

About the stringer.. The decision to not cut the stringer is because many many people told me that prefer to resharp plain blades than buy a new cutting tool to the machine. Is almost a consense. But it can be done if necessary.

 

We can buy a cnc kit here in the states for about $7,000 and build a machine to mill surfboards however it won't do the stringers and the software is not included. A friend of mine built his own and after 2 years he gave up and just uses a cnc cutting service that has a good machine with solid software interface!

If you try it, you will discover that make a CNC machine is not only assembly a kit. This is why your friend give up.

 

[/quote]

 

Regards

Guilherme

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Guilherme:

I'm really into the CNC aspect of board building. The machine I have is a 3DM machine by John Yow. It will cut hardwoods, Foam or Soft alloys for that matter.

I cut the stringer and change my cutter heads every 4 months. The time you save in having your stringer milled with the rest of the board is pricess and the cost of new cutter heads is just basic up keep. I have a set of cutter heads for cutting different materials. Win CNC is the control software that reads the G-Code generated by Shape 3D.

By your writting I can tell that you are able to make a nice machine. If you made a machine simular to the AKU Shaper or the ASP3000 for less money that can cut the stringer you would have a viable tool to market.

Not only in the US but also in Australia.

Surfding

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Surfding - I´m with you in your point of view, I use my that machine in the video to mill massive wood without problems, but again, it´s a choice.

For a fast, very precise and easy job, of course the best is to mill the stringer, there´s so many kinds of cutters that can be used, it depends of how much money you want to invest. It can start at us$20,00 and go to US$2000,00… you must know about this…

 

The ideal principle is… what kind of machine you need… a fast, precise but expensive machine? Or a not-so-fast, not-so-precise but cheap machine?

I think that you know what I´m talking about…

 

The winCNC uses the G-Code that the most of the controllers uses, but particularly I prefer to use Mach3, Is a very good program, that can be fully customized, and the license price is low. Also the program have the funcion Look Ahead, that reduce drastically the vibrations on light machines and makes the milling lines smooth. So shape3D or BoardCAD, or almost any CAM softwares can generate the machine file.

 

I love the idea of a heavy duty and hi performance machine, and I´m pretty sure that it is possible to do. If here in Brasil, where the CNC parts are expensive is possible, in other countries of course is possible too.

 

Some things that you need to consider in the prices of the machines. The machines are tecnology products, so most of the machine cost is the knowlegement of the devenlopers. And is a choice of them…

Get much money selling few machines…

or

Sell many machines getting a regular money and in the end get the same money. But here the market is yours. (And where I can go).

All depends of your point of view… as I said…

 

One more information… I went to this option just because here in Brazil is very dificult to find shapers that can invest US$30000,00 in a heavy duty machine, but various that want to buy a machine by US$10000,00

 

Thank you for the help and comments.

Guilherme

 

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this is from the real aps3000miki  website

 

APS3000 Gen2 (new April 2009):

  8'  AUS$ 39.990.--  + Shape3D Software

10'  AUS$ 41.990.--  + Shape3D Software 

12'  AUS$ 43.990.--  + Shape3D Software

 

APS3000 Gen2 Heavy Duty: 

add AUS$ 10.000.--

The APS3000 Heavy Duty is engineered for max performance and high output  in every detail. This model includes the latest Japanese/American servo controller technology and an industrial grade computer with touch screen.

Shape3D Software 1 year license    AUS$ 2.200.--

Shape3D Software lifetime license  AUS$ 8.000.--

 

we do sometimes have 2nd hand machines and fully refurbished 2nd hand machines incl. installation, warranty and support.

 

****please contact Miki at:****

 

APS3000miki@gmail.com 

18

gee dave that was a bit below the belt   haaaaa’‘’

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Dont think so mate. the guy was asking if we thought his idea was worth him spending the time and money to set up a business. i simplty showed him one of the prices of machines he is up against. better he finds out now than after he throws his life savings into something…

20

Hello again guys,

Just sending some pics of the first machine sold.

 

Pic1

http://www.twitpic.com/yzqu9

 

http://www.twitpic.com/yzr9v

 

 

 

Now I have 2 others in assembly stage.

Regards