Hello Huck, I am not a shaper but I recently ordered a similar board and have been doing some research on the design. Mine will be something around 10'2", we ordered a usblanks 10'6" A Green density with a thick stringer. I guess you will need something like a 9'9" A.
Wow, that is a real gun you are going to shape, where will you be riding it?
From what I have researched, wide point should be around 6" - 8" up. Nose width between 10" and 11", tail around there too, maybe a bit narrower than the nose. The width you sugested is about right. I decided to keep as much width and thickness from the blank as possible for paddling but thickness should be under chest, tail should be foiled thin and pintail should be "spiky". Deck will be flat to just at the rail where it will go to a down rail with much sharpness on the aft section. Beak nose to keep some foam up there. Bottom, some suggest v to flat to panel v to flat behind the fin, after closely examining a similar Country Surfboards gun we have in the shop, we decided to go with a flat at the tip to basically a slight v throughout most of the bottom, increasing in front of the fin an then flat behind the fin. I have read that this is the bottom Bill Barnfield used on these types of boards.
As for rocker, your numbers sound right. In my case we will go about 3" tail and just flow with the blank's rocker without tweeaking it too much so the entry rocker will be greater than 6" in my board. From what I have researched, gun rocker should be continuous and flowing with no flat spots, breaks or kicks that can catch when you are going fast and trying to survive. It is suposed to be a simple and functional board.
Glassing, we will probably go double 10 oz top and bottom, gloss finish and bright orange color so I can find it when I lose it.
What I am still trying to find out is what fin to use and how far up should it be placed. I guess a board like this doesn't need a fin that is too deep because of the tail spike and the outline/rails in the tail.
Again, I am not a shaper just a surfboard design nerd who likes to read a lot and listen to what experts have to say. Swaylocks is very cool because you can get the experienced shapers and designers to give you some great advice and you get to read some very interesting stories along the way. Maybe Bill Barnfield or Thrailkill can help.
Thanks dlock, Tony, and Ken for the help, and thanks Chris for the vote of confidence! I'm a little intimidated by the project, but determined.
So 3" thick sounds right to me, since the deck is pretty flat through the center then that should be plenty of volume appropriate to the shape. Since mine is for Calif. waves, it'll have bit wider tail than the Hawaii gun that Balsa posted.
If anybody has pics of a Calif. lightning bolt gun, would be greatly appreciated! Esp. showing rails, rocker, deck, fin, bottom, etc.
At this point I'm planning on a relatively flat deck through the middle, rails more down than neutral, single fin with slight v out the tail, rocker pretty much as sketched.
It might be worth pointing out that the rocker dimensions in the diagrams are based on Surfding's preferred computer program which has the profile tilted forward.
The (more or less) standardized method of rocker measurement with 'zero at center' does not apply.
I would be curious what the rocker measurements are with a 'zero at center' reference.
Thanks! It's much easier for me to get my head around zero center point. 5.9" tail rocker as shown in first diagram seems excessive if you're used to raw numbers.
Geez guys, surfding is trying to help by handing over some good stuff, and you're worried about where the reference line is on his rocker? Or that contemporary rocker might be ''too much''?
Try and find a 70s ''lightning bolt California gun'' at 9'6'', to copy. That might be a challenge in itself, most guns in the 70s were in the 7'-8' range.
John, I hope you ''get it'' now that surfding did a good job of explaining it. A bottom rocker is just a 2D curve in space, it doesn't matter where you locate the reference line. The curve stays the same. If you're measuring rocker while handshaping, going off center is the standard. But it's easy to translate #s from a ''tips-level'' measurement to ''tangent-center'', as surfding says. And you'll get exactly the same curve.
Surfding - thanks for the drawing - sweeeeet! The rocker and cross-sections are very helpful, the planshape is awesome! Love it, and really do thank you for taking the time and effort on that.
Hi John: pretty standard is ZERO CENTER. However I have learned over the last 6 years to use TRUE MATH. This comes from working with PhD's of Math and Physics. They work in true values so that the translation in to G-Code can work with a Multiple Axis Machine. There is a Technic that Phil Edwards would use that is more in line with TRUE MATH were he would maintain the nose and tail at ZERO then proceed to take the numbers every 3" from a Level Horizontal Line. The same way the Academics do it. These are only expressed numbers however the rockers will be the same between ZERO CENTER and TRUE MATH. For example I have taken a rocker stick profile generated by a well know shaper that works with ZERO CENTER just like BB. I scan his board (TRUE MATH) and generate a rocker stick profile from the program file and low and behold they match dead even. However the values are expressed differently. Knowing the translation between the two has been very useful dealing with various shapers. It's only a matter of expressed values.
Don't really know if this kind of information is useful here on swaylock?
"I have learned over the last 6 years to use TRUE MATH. This comes from working with PhD's of Math and Physics. They work in true values so that the translation in to G-Code can work with a Multiple Axis Machine. There is a Technic that Phil Edwards would use that is more in line with TRUE MATH were he would maintain the nose and tail at ZERO then proceed to take the numbers every 3" from a Level Horizontal Line. The same way the Academics do it."
Sheesh Michael -
I can barely balance my checkbook and now I'm supposed to understand TRUE MATH? I didn't know academics even shaped surfboards. EVERYONE knows there's no money in it.
I can barely balance my checkbook and now I'm supposed to understand
TRUE MATH? I didn't know academics even shaped surfboards. EVERYONE
knows there's no money in it.
I have a Clark Foam catalog from 2005......I paid off my credit cards....I have no clue about gun rocker......Keith Melville and Resinhead build some very nice guns.....
I hope some of the masters pipe in.
This is the 9'6 pintail I have,
more tail rocker than your numbers though. nose is around 5.25 and tail 4.5 something, the centerline is @ 1.5
96rocker.png
Hello Huck, I am not a shaper but I recently ordered a similar board and have been doing some research on the design. Mine will be something around 10'2", we ordered a usblanks 10'6" A Green density with a thick stringer. I guess you will need something like a 9'9" A.
Wow, that is a real gun you are going to shape, where will you be riding it?
From what I have researched, wide point should be around 6" - 8" up. Nose width between 10" and 11", tail around there too, maybe a bit narrower than the nose. The width you sugested is about right. I decided to keep as much width and thickness from the blank as possible for paddling but thickness should be under chest, tail should be foiled thin and pintail should be "spiky". Deck will be flat to just at the rail where it will go to a down rail with much sharpness on the aft section. Beak nose to keep some foam up there. Bottom, some suggest v to flat to panel v to flat behind the fin, after closely examining a similar Country Surfboards gun we have in the shop, we decided to go with a flat at the tip to basically a slight v throughout most of the bottom, increasing in front of the fin an then flat behind the fin. I have read that this is the bottom Bill Barnfield used on these types of boards.
As for rocker, your numbers sound right. In my case we will go about 3" tail and just flow with the blank's rocker without tweeaking it too much so the entry rocker will be greater than 6" in my board. From what I have researched, gun rocker should be continuous and flowing with no flat spots, breaks or kicks that can catch when you are going fast and trying to survive. It is suposed to be a simple and functional board.
Glassing, we will probably go double 10 oz top and bottom, gloss finish and bright orange color so I can find it when I lose it.
What I am still trying to find out is what fin to use and how far up should it be placed. I guess a board like this doesn't need a fin that is too deep because of the tail spike and the outline/rails in the tail.
Again, I am not a shaper just a surfboard design nerd who likes to read a lot and listen to what experts have to say. Swaylocks is very cool because you can get the experienced shapers and designers to give you some great advice and you get to read some very interesting stories along the way. Maybe Bill Barnfield or Thrailkill can help.
Huck
ya that is a sweet board that Balsa posted,,, google images will give you more pics
all this information posted seems to be accurate
but remember ,,there were lots of variations in these boards in the 70's,, tail widths, rails etc,,etc,,
but down rails were the norm,,, hard at the tail end
where the board is surfed is a major factor for all things shaped,,,
Island boards are surfed in powerfull waves as compared to California Mainland waves
if they don't comment here, it'd be a good idea to PM Bill Thrailkill, Bill Barnfield, and Deadshaper...
really looking forward to this build thread and finished product! i'm sure with your skills and that shape, it's going to be a knockout!
Thanks dlock, Tony, and Ken for the help, and thanks Chris for the vote of confidence! I'm a little intimidated by the project, but determined.
So 3" thick sounds right to me, since the deck is pretty flat through the center then that should be plenty of volume appropriate to the shape. Since mine is for Calif. waves, it'll have bit wider tail than the Hawaii gun that Balsa posted.
Hi Chrisp:
The rockers are mathmatically calculated and base on the Nose and Tail being even and capturing the correct curve.
Thickness are in consideration of the length.
Surfding
California Hybrid Gun.jpg
HUCK Gun.jpg
I would defer to BB as he was there makng them.............DS
ha ha, oops... for some reason i thought you were too? i don't know why i thought that
If anybody has pics of a Calif. lightning bolt gun, would be greatly appreciated! Esp. showing rails, rocker, deck, fin, bottom, etc.
At this point I'm planning on a relatively flat deck through the middle, rails more down than neutral, single fin with slight v out the tail, rocker pretty much as sketched.
Im sure the "customer" will like the board when its done.
I cant keep a straight face too much longer,,,
O.K. Ken...
Is it Roy?
Ha!,,,,, you will have to ask Huck
It might be worth pointing out that the rocker dimensions in the diagrams are based on Surfding's preferred computer program which has the profile tilted forward.
The (more or less) standardized method of rocker measurement with 'zero at center' does not apply.
I would be curious what the rocker measurements are with a 'zero at center' reference.
Hi John: Please forgive my igorance.
The previous plans the rocker was expressed in engineering terms.
These examples presented here are expressed in a shapers terms.
Keep in mind were surfing 20' Plus waves.
I think I will take a time out and read a book in my "ZEN ROOM"!
Kind regards,
Surfding
California Hybrid Gun CENTERED ROCKER.jpg
HUCK GUN CENTERED ROCKER.jpg
zen room.jpg
Man Surfding,,, thats a lot of rocker!
I think this board is for cali surf,, probly wont be out in much over 10 ft waves
I think this board is for cali surf,, probly wont be out in much over 10 ft waves
Then you need to make it a 7'6
I was told the board was to be 9'6
Flatter rocker on a gun is sucide.
Sorry for my misunderstanding!
3" tail rocker
6" nose rocker would be great for the waves intended
The plans I posted were some boards I have made for Puerto Escondido and Todos Santos.
I few years ago I made a 9'1" California Gun for Large surf however easy drops.
The rocker was less severe. Big South Orange County type waves.
I wil re-post some more realistic plans.
Kind regards,
Surfding
Hi Michael -
Thanks! It's much easier for me to get my head around zero center point. 5.9" tail rocker as shown in first diagram seems excessive if you're used to raw numbers.
Geez guys, surfding is trying to help by handing over some good stuff, and you're worried about where the reference line is on his rocker? Or that contemporary rocker might be ''too much''?
Try and find a 70s ''lightning bolt California gun'' at 9'6'', to copy. That might be a challenge in itself, most guns in the 70s were in the 7'-8' range.
[email protected]
"and you're worried about where the reference line is on his rocker?"
Yeah, you're right.... 5.9" vs 3.29". No big deal. LOL
Zero center is pretty standard from what I've been reading around here. Apparently it does make a difference.
Take a tip from Bill Barnfield.
John, I hope you ''get it'' now that surfding did a good job of explaining it. A bottom rocker is just a 2D curve in space, it doesn't matter where you locate the reference line. The curve stays the same. If you're measuring rocker while handshaping, going off center is the standard. But it's easy to translate #s from a ''tips-level'' measurement to ''tangent-center'', as surfding says. And you'll get exactly the same curve.
[email protected]
Surfding - thanks for the drawing - sweeeeet! The rocker and cross-sections are very helpful, the planshape is awesome! Love it, and really do thank you for taking the time and effort on that.
I'm still looking for photos or info on fins.
Wow! Full 70's outline. Had many boards like that in 77' on the North Shore. Easy to ride. If you do a single fin I have the template.
Kind regards,
Surfding
Sleeping on the job!
surfding sleeping on the job.jpg
SUP EASY.jpg
You must be dreaming some sweet dreams, Mike, don't you?
Kind regards from France. Guilhem.
Thanks for stopping by while you and your daughter were un California.
All the best!
Michael
reduced rocker for the Cali Gun
Lopez Style 7'1 (use a US 73A Blanks)
California Gun Reduced Rocker.jpg
Huck Lopez.jpg
Hi John: pretty standard is ZERO CENTER. However I have learned over the last 6 years to use TRUE MATH. This comes from working with PhD's of Math and Physics. They work in true values so that the translation in to G-Code can work with a Multiple Axis Machine. There is a Technic that Phil Edwards would use that is more in line with TRUE MATH were he would maintain the nose and tail at ZERO then proceed to take the numbers every 3" from a Level Horizontal Line. The same way the Academics do it. These are only expressed numbers however the rockers will be the same between ZERO CENTER and TRUE MATH. For example I have taken a rocker stick profile generated by a well know shaper that works with ZERO CENTER just like BB. I scan his board (TRUE MATH) and generate a rocker stick profile from the program file and low and behold they match dead even. However the values are expressed differently. Knowing the translation between the two has been very useful dealing with various shapers. It's only a matter of expressed values.
Don't really know if this kind of information is useful here on swaylock?
Kind regards,
Michael
(Surfding)
Very useful, keep posting.
"I have learned over the last 6 years to use TRUE MATH. This comes from working with PhD's of Math and Physics. They work in true values so that the translation in to G-Code can work with a Multiple Axis Machine. There is a Technic that Phil Edwards would use that is more in line with TRUE MATH were he would maintain the nose and tail at ZERO then proceed to take the numbers every 3" from a Level Horizontal Line. The same way the Academics do it."
Sheesh Michael -
I can barely balance my checkbook and now I'm supposed to understand TRUE MATH? I didn't know academics even shaped surfboards. EVERYONE knows there's no money in it.
Sheesh Michael -
I can barely balance my checkbook and now I'm supposed to understand TRUE MATH? I didn't know academics even shaped surfboards. EVERYONE knows there's no money in it.
TRUE
You got to love it.
interesting education on rocker, thank you mr ding and mr mellor for bringing it up
mr ding and a sup fresh from his multiple axis machine
077.JPG
077_0.JPG
Hello Huck ,
I have a Clark Foam catalog from 2005......I paid off my credit cards....I have no clue about gun rocker......Keith Melville and Resinhead build some very nice guns.....
Ray