Does Futures make different ant (tilt angles) for their fins?

DEADSHAPER · October 17, 2011, 7:20pm

**I’ve been using FCS Fusion which their boxes come in 0, 5, and 9 degrees. **

**Some customers are asking for Futures. What I am finidng is they pre-cant the fins instead of the boxes. This may be fine for the status quo (common) bottom configs but I have quite a bit of vee in a model I do and if the fins are precanted at 6 or 7 degrees that presents a problem. Don’t tell me to just set the angle and grind of the high part of their flange- that’s amateur and not an option.
**

Can anyne tell me if Futures offers fins in different cant options?

**I need to know…like yesterday. **

**Thanks
**

sdrepairman · October 17, 2011, 7:57pm

just talked to them and they said that all there fins are set at 6 1/2 degrees

the only thing that ive been able to do in these cases is to go deeper in the routing but there is a limit

good luck

DEADSHAPER · October 17, 2011, 9:02pm

Thanks for the quick reply.

Futures is a good system with some drawbacks. The problem with their flange approach is your don’t have lee way to set the cant differently when bottoms configurations vary significantly… If their fins were available in something like 0, 5, and 8 degrees versus one choice of 6-1/2 degrees, or if the flange was made of a material that could easily be sanded flush to a shaper’s desired bottom design, this might not be an issue. However, the molding process more than likely would result in a higher degree of porosity or occasional manufacturing voids in their flange part. A top plate flange that could rotate allowing a variety of fin cants while remaining flush to the board’s surface might be a better approach altogether.

The suppositiion that all bottoms are flat, single or double concaved is a good indicator of how stagnant the mass produced mainstream surfboard currently is. What’s a guy designing outside of the box supposed to do? Offer glassed on only?

Pro Box and 4 Way offer options. So does F3. But it’s very clear that their is no standardized approach, and perhaps the manufacturers prefer it that way. Fin systems are the second highest expense (other than the blank) in making a surfboard today. It’s too bad some are so limited.

“We have one new model of car built in our country… you can have any color you want as long as it is brown.”** :O**

sdrepairman · October 17, 2011, 10:26pm

this is what i do in situations like this, but im not familiar with your boards so i dont know how much vee is in your board and if this will help or not but

these are the flanges that i use with my routing jig and have a couple different thicknesses

when you set them on the rail side it tilts the jig so that its still kinda level but again not sure how much vee you have

then once you get the angle you want you will probably have to set your router bit deeper than normal to make it all the way into the foam but its always worked for me

hope this helps and good luck to ya

DEADSHAPER · October 18, 2011, 4:23pm

Kind of hard to see what is going on there, but if I get the gist of it, you are shimming under you Futures jig and have a bit long enough to make the rout slightly deeper to allow for the change of angle.

In that case you end up with one side of the flange negative (below the board’s bottom surface) to allow for the change of angle. So then the glassing demands resin fill into the negative area or insetting a small piece of cloth to lend structural integrity to the void created. Cloth would be advised as resin by itself is not structural by nature, unless poured massively thick as is practiced in the concrete industry.

My understanding from Futures is that standard fin cant is 6.5 degrees on their fins. On rear quad sets they do 3 degrees (some older ones were 2 degrees). And on tow in boards it is 1 degree.

Some of the pros swear by 7 degrees on their tri fins. Others like a bit more. Less cant will be drivier, more cant will loosen a board design up some and provide easer leading into a cutback. Toe in can impact this, but is difficult to quantify . The general belief is that less toe in will be stiffer, and more toe in looser to a point of slowing the board down. Toe in also can vary depending upon a board’s length. Some shaper’s swear by using a straight edge and pointing the fins directly at the nose, while other’s have the trajectory line out from the nose. This commonly results in a 1/8" to 3/8" leading edge toe in.

For me the fact remains that by offering Futures, I’m dealing with new logistics. And as any serious shaper knows, when new variable come into play, unless you take these seriously, all of a sudden a winning formula can stand to be impacted in a plus or negative way. Then you also have to factor in that each rider may be looking for different attributes in the design you sold them.

There’s a certain amount of compensation you can do when offering a model that is cited to have specific performance attributes. If the cant angle produces less drive, then look for a fin area that inherently delivers more drive. And as stated above, consider changing the toe in angle, or compromise the standard setting of the box being used to deliver the angle you want.

I’m not about to change the board’s design for the demands established by one fin manufacturers limited offering(s)!

At the end of the day we are talking about 1-1/2 degrees difference.

That may not sound like much, but maybe that’s just enough to make or break a good design.

grasshopper · October 18, 2011, 5:39pm

just tell your customer that design works better with fcs and you use them for a reason.

DEADSHAPER · October 18, 2011, 7:52pm

No shit.

I plan on it.

It’s usually a none issue except two guys have quivers using Futures, so I understand where they’re coming from.

I guess I can tell them they can have Futures but they will come with twin tabs and peanut shaped boxes… lol.

P.S.

The trailing center box has a definite vee in them…so that means an intentionally dropped down Futures flange, a screwed up sanded flange, or a sanded to contour Fusion peanut.

DMP · October 19, 2011, 7:03am

Deadshaper,

I have the FCS peanuts and the Futures installation kits. For whatever reason I get a 2-1 ratio for Futures over FCS. For whatever its worth the Futures should be ok with your exaggerated vee. Compared to the FCS there is quite a bit of void under the box. In fact I’ve learned not to snug the Futures box all the way down into the routed slot. If I fully press the box down it will sit a hair too deep for sanding. I agree the void isn’t the most structurally sound but never had a board returned with a cracked box either. Also never cracked a box even on some big wave guns in large surf.

The slight void allows for cant adjustment. I can only imagine they do this to account for deep concave as well.

Shimming the router base plate should allow for the extra vee and get the box and fin back into your degree range. If the vee is very extreme and the tail is narrow then you might run into problems with depth as shimming the route plate to level will raise it too high. Worse thing you’ll have to do is adjust the bit in the router.

sdrepairman · October 19, 2011, 3:52pm

as normal you get it and even way more than most people you hit the nail right on the head

as DMP stated its not the best thing to have that void area but out of all the board ive put futures in in this manner there are none that come to my mind that broke out without hitting a rock or something else and i use cabocile for the filler when installing the boxes and a football patch over that when laminating

aroq · October 20, 2011, 5:53am

Try asking rainbow fin co to make you a set of what ever template you desire but with the cant you want built into it. I know that they do custom fins, so why not custom cant???

DEADSHAPER · October 21, 2011, 4:54am

Not realistic for as many boards as I do. And the guys that get them would be “held captive” to what was custom made. What if they break or lose a fin, are on a trip somewhere and need a replacement?

But actually, the other comments assuage my concern. Especially that the Futures are not as tight and precise as the Fusion I use. Since there is some slop or room to move in there, then I figure there will be enough wiggle room to get what I need.

Thanks to everyone for their replies and insight.

tblank · October 22, 2011, 1:14am

DS, have you considered 4 Way fin Systems? They make sense to me although I've no experience with them yet. I'm surprized they aren't more popular. Find them at: www.4wfs.com/home.

DEADSHAPER · October 22, 2011, 2:42am

**For us shapers, they make a heck of a lot of sense. The sad truth is only a tiny percentage of surfers would use them to any real degree.Sounds shallow, but the discs are friggin HUGE and some people wouldn’t be caught dead with them. Maybe make them white or find some way to reduce the visual impact?
**

**Guys on Sway’s are the exception. Many of us are gear heads by nature. That’s uncommon to the masses.
**

**Earlier it was mentioned that there was some room to move on Futures. Well I went over this with Hawk and he said “not with the jig I have”. Yes they wil work. But I want them to work the way I intend them to.
**

**Personally I have to be honest here and say I think it sucks that the fins are pre canted instead of the box. It is a very limiting aspect to the design. **

**Seriously think about it. If you have a need for “0” degrees than I guess you could order center fin boxes from either FCS or Futures. If you want 5 or 9 degrees, again Fusion. If you want Futures tri fins at anything other than 6-1/2 degrees you are screwed. **

I’d like to know who determined that 6-1/2" degrees is the panacea for ALL EXISTING SURFBOARD DESIGNS?

Make no mistake about it, Futures is a very design forward company, just look at the offering of fins. However the pre cant of the fins is very limiting to anyone other than the lemmings that follow within a 1/16th of an inch to what the big boys are doing.

**I could give a sh-t what the big boys are doing. **

**That’s branding more than anything else. **

**People get paid to ride brands. **

There’s a reason why Martinez and some other guys have bailed… do ya think?

So maybe someone out there has gone down the road I have and can chime in here and say "hey, Bruce, there are some UNCANTED FINS THAT WILL FIT INTO FUTURES BOXES. Maybe a tweak here or there, but they won’t add degrees you don’t want.

I’m listening, hoping, praying.

Otherwise it’s time I break out the old glass and do a fin panel or two…or pay a small fortune for glass ones that will work how I want them to work. Or maybe I just say f-ck it and do glass ons. That would make a real statement.

**Maybe Larry (Pro Box) will PM me and finally make me a believer?
**

tblank · October 22, 2011, 4:00am

Ds., I heard that.

PAGING DR. LARRY!

DEADSHAPER · October 22, 2011, 3:48pm

The cant insert option of 0, 4, 6, & 8 degrees is certainly worth considering. Although he cites the ease of installation, it is in no way as simplistic as Fusion or Futures, for that matter. But the most static (fixed aka limited) system is hands down, Futures.

**When Simon Anderson brought about the original “3 Fin Thruster” we normally set the glassed on fins at 3 degrees. Some guys opted for 4, feeling they wanted a little looser. As time went on that 3 degree norm became more like a 5 degree standard. **

Many of today’s modern boards are set in the range of 7 to 9 degree cants in relation to flat plane from rail to rail.

** More vertical (less cant) more drive.**

Less vertical (more tilt) more loose, but more turning for drive or speed.

**High area boards inherently have more drive. Narrow boards are quicker rail to rail. **

Concaves create a disparity of pressure the bottom experiences increasing speed according to the configuration employed.

Concaves also “imply” an edge while not necessarily having one.

**At the end of the day, there will be a cause and effect relationship on everything you do to a board. **

Someone will go ride it and have an opinion and subsequently a conclusion.

**Ultimately, one man’s magic is another man’s poison!
**

DEADSHAPER · October 22, 2011, 6:55pm

**Well now, to answer myself, here is a bit of twisted somewhat fortunate late breaking news (not that anyone cares but me and maybe my dog). **

Stoker is back over from Hawaii. He’s got an old beaten up Stoker that he considers magic. The deck is sunken in big time, the tail is thinner than usual, the fins are glassed on. It’s got dings and i said, “sure I’ll patch it up and keep it alive”.

**So I get home with all these beautiful new Stokers… individual custom orders and a group going into Mollusk early this coming week. I get out my little tool and I’m measuring angles and comparing all of them. **

Well, lo and behold… the old magic Stoker glass ons have the same angle as the two orders that guys wanted Futures. I compare the vee in the old Stoker and it’s perhaps one degree less than the new ones. But the angle off the vee to the side fins is exactly the same.

So I guess the lesson of the story is, when you start to obsess over a design, maybe go back to my statement “one man’s magic is another man’s poison”.

We aren’t all built the same.

We don’t all surf the same.

We don’t ride the same spot, waves, or conditions on any given day.

If everything was the same all the time we would be bored as hell or zombies.

**Not a problem if you’re one of those folks in “Night of the Living Dead.”
**

**
**

tblank · October 22, 2011, 7:15pm

I guess that after all, what floats your boat is what keeps you in business. The disparity is what custom is all about. Even if it is perception.

Is Stoker in one of the photos of the Goleta gathering? If so I surfed with him at Stables a few times this summer. Nice enough guy. Knows his shapes.

DEADSHAPER · November 9, 2011, 3:40pm

He’s the guy with the “Howzit Hawaii Shaka Brah” T shirt on in the pix at www.goletasurfing.com.

Yup, Stokie is a big happy kid. The quintessential surf bum that we’d all like to be.

Some guys have all the luck.

surfrat · November 10, 2011, 6:16am

i just read this thread, as someone who has used 4 ways before, i think it's something every shaper should at least try.

i was reading the limitations that you are experiencing, and with other systems too...

with 4 ways, whether u have a vee or concave bottom, even tho you have pre-set angled fin tabs at 6 deg with 4 ways, u have interchangeable "inter-discs' that u can either add : 2 or 4 or 6 deg addtional splay or reduce by the same amount, just by simply rotating the disc , which is a lot cheaper than having to buy another set of fins with another angle.

i noticed you mentioned that the disc according to you is way too big , wow!!! i personally think the futures box has to be the ugliest on the planet! i'll take lokbox anyday .... those ugly rectangle Futures boxes really don't cut it with me plus their elongated boxes i feel change the flex patterns on the boards, not to mention cutting away heaps of the stringer for the thruster box....

But my entention here, is not to discredit Futures, but more to share that what i have experienced with 4 ways that i haven't had with any other system i have ever tried...

so, which is better?

i think it totally depends on your personal needs, as u mentioned, we aren't all the same , no 2 boards in my opinion are the same, so there is the constant variable....

having adjustability in your fin system just makes sense to me, i use it and have done so for a while...

don't worry, i have had customers come in and say, aaaahh but i have 3 boards with fcs , or futures... then i just ask? do u carry all 3 sets around with you all the time? with 4ways u have 3 boards in one so to speak, can make it looser for small waves and make it hold better in bigger waves, that's just the tip of the iceberg of what u can do... with 4 ways..and the 4way allen key.

then the customers ask me about distribution worldwide... wow! the same argument could be used for futures when they started... now people want to use them, so why not any other fin system.... it's not like 4 ways is NOT around, u can get it, be it not as easily maybe as fcs , but then NOBODY has the distribution level that fcs has, not even Futures, so does this mean we should all use fcs?

Where there's a will there's a way, if u need something better, just look , it's out there already, just try it... like i did....

i have never looked back.... the rest are, in my opinion, ancient and frustratingly limiting !

hope this helps...

huie · November 10, 2011, 7:56am

under the glass much better great for the shaper he actually gets to put the fin boxs were he wants them.

i have one big prblm though but not on here?