Steve83 you can make a really good performing board using Roy's building techniques. It's not the way you make it, it's the design, the outline, profile, rocker, rails that make a good board.
Nearly 100 years ago Tom Blake's boards looked like Roy's boards with the long straight tails. There's a reason they don't look like that anymore. Boards aren't the way they were when I started surfing in the mid to late 60's. It doesn't mean you can't ride one of the older style boards, but we've discovered most of their flaws. Many of the flaws were so hard to overcome the boards were never used again. Now we make old style boards more for the nostalgia, not so much for higher performance.
I have plans for building a 12' dragon, but I just don't see the logic in spending the time and money. Had the plans for quite a while. I'm trying to figure out how I can use the same techniques but create the proper profile. Rocker, rails, outline are no problem, but the way he builds the inner frame makes it hard to taper the thickness from nose to middle to tail to get the proper profile.
Steve83, you seem to have the same mindset that Roy had. I don't think I'll be of any value trying to help you.
There are pro surfers here, and former pro surfers. Many pro builders too. All the pro's are laughing their ass off at your arguments. Randy Rarick posts here and he has used Roy's pipeline board. His ride report is in the pipeline challenge thread.
What I was hoping for was a little good debate over design and construction methods. I have a hard time believing statements people make without a better explanation than "it is so". When people trash the board they seldom have any good facts to back up there accusations. It becomes hard for me to swallow these statements because I have read extensively into hydrodynamic design, laminar flow, advanced composites, Ect. I have been accused of being stuck in a certain train of thought but that really is not the case. I surf boards from 6' and up so my mind is open to a variance of design concepts. Each surf board is designed with the way it will be intended to be riddin in mind. There are infinite variables that go into the design of a surfboard. Each design charecteristic that changes will effect another board attribute. This board will be my cruiser, but my short board has its place on days were I feel like short radius turn or tricks.
Hate the game, not the player as the saying went. Sometimes it just doesn't feel like making the effort to write out some long detailed explanation why something doesn't work. Sammy gave you the Cliff Notes version. It doesn't work.
You didn't like that Sammy hasn't ridden a similar board , so he shouldn't pass judgement. Just like you said, "I have read extensively into hydrodynamic design, laminar flow, advanced composites, Ect.". So have we all. It isn't necessary to ride the board to see it is lacking the fundamentals of design. It isn't that they don't have the facts. It is more they just can't be bothered to explain it again.
You had fun with the build. You might have fun with the ride. Don't get upset that others disagree, or give long explanations of why they disagree. If you want to know why they disagree, it has all been said before and is in the archives.
Lastly, about the spelling stuff. Right click in the field of what you have typed. click "check spelling" That will help. Can't help with grammer. "Their vs. there" and such. If a guy wants to rattle your cage, he's going to do it, and it just makes it easier.
It isn't necessary to ride the board to see it is lacking the fundamentals of design.
Exactly. Any person with a basic understanding of surfing and surfboard design can see that.
Surfboards are similar to women. Some have nice curves. Some don't. Curves are important.
I have no problems with disagreements. They commonly come with personal insults, attacks, and slander. I love a good debate but think its hard for people in general to sepporate there design ideas from their emotions. It's ok. I just think if you go through the trouble to make a post on why something won't work it warrants a little explanation other than its a bad design. It's a design people love to hate because its so different and because its associated with Roy.
I also think its unfair to offer up a post of " it's a bad design and won't work go look through the forum for an explanation" this is a discussion forum. Mostly what's being offered up is here is people's opinions.
1 They never rode one.
2 They never built one.
3 The statements made are so open ended and vague they are almost impossible to reply to.
4 The arguments are geared toward why this is not a good performance shortboard.
The arguments are geared toward why this is not a good performance shortboard.
No, they are not. No one with any experience would make such a comparison. It is not a good performance "surfboard".
There's been reams of discussion about these clunkers, including first hand ride reports from folks in Hawaii and California.
The majority opinion from those who have examined and also ridden them is that they are a joke.
The design may suit a guy like Roy, but I think that's because he never really learned to surf well and decided to go with something
that suited his lack of skill. If someone else had come up with this idea, they may not have been vilified so much. But, the unsubstantiated claims made by
the inventor are so over the top that any abuse they garner is the result of his history on the 'net. His poor design, woodworking, and surfing skills are exceeded
only by his overblown ego.
Hey Steve, welcome to swaylocks. Cool that you made a board, and shared pics and talk story about it, this is the essence of what this forum is all about.
A few observations that may or may not be of value to you.
Listed on the rules page as one of the things that will make you unpopular, is repeating yourself. If you finished a board, and are stoked to post pics and comments, and find that it fits in a couple different threads, by all means post it in both. But when you post the same or almost the same pics and comments in 4, 5, or 6 different threads, you are doing exactly what the rules page tells you will make you unpopular. Further, since you are now well aware that there is a certain controversy surrounding Roy's boards and the claims he makes for them, it starts to look like you have an agenda, i.e., like you are baiting people, rather than just sharing. Not saying that's the case, just explaining how it looks to an observer.
And when you go on to criticize those who are unfavorable with the argument that they don't own a board, or haven't ridden one, it begs the question, (since you are defending it) exactly how much have you ridden it, and in what conditions? My point is, you make it sound like you just barely finished the board, and haven't ridden it much or at all, so by extolling its virtues, you sound no different (to me) than those you criticize.
I really wish we could have a more tolerant and reasoned discussion of different shapes and types of surfboards, but it has to work on both sides of the fence, so to speak.
Another thing listed in the rules as a good idea, is "don't feed the trolls". A troll, by definition, is someone who is posting to anger, enrage, or start an argument. So if you feel someone is doing this...just don't respond. By responding, you fuel the fire, and things rapidly deteriorate.
Unlike SammyA, I don't think your board is ugly, I think its cool. I don't know if I'd want to paddle out on it, but to each their own.
I am in regular contact with Roy via another forum that we are both members of, and where I am also a moderator, and believe me he is not shy about criticizing me and the way I moderate, on that forum and on this one (yes Roy is a regular reader here on Swaylocks, and I don't think any comment regarding him or his boards escapes his notice). So no, we're not buddies, but I feel his boards deserve a 'fair go' for those who do want to paddle out and try a few waves, or build one, or whatever.
For that reason, I participated to a small degree in the Pipeline Challenge rebuild, transporting the board to hand off to Tuck, who is rebuilding it. Once completed, there will be a chance for many more, esp. here in So. Calif., to ride it and report back on their observations.
I hope you, and all of us, can move forward into more productive conversations and sharing. I'm looking forward to hearing more from you, ride reports on your "parallel profile" board, and discussions about other projects and boards, etc.
To me, every member willing to share is a valuable resource, even if there are a few bumps along the way. You will likely find that even some of those you have butted heads with can be very helpful and generous in sharing, teaching, and encouraging, just as you say Roy was.
I have heard several members say the people bashing me are people I can learn from. They have so much wisdom and such. Then why don't they back up there claims or engage in a real conversation about design. That's what this is right? A design forum. I can't really take all the claims these guys make seriously. I won't be convinced because you say it's so. And the whole it's been discussed before is a cop out. I think there are some here that are standing on one leg and grasping for straws.
Here is a good question......why am I getting all these counseling sessions from members trying to get me to bend over for these members that have bashed me from the start? Why do so few call them out for the out rite rudeness, bad behavior, and trolling?
Here is a good question......why am I getting all these counseling sessions from members trying to get me to bend over for these members that have bashed me from the start? Why do so few call them out for the out rite rudeness, bad behavior, and trolling?
I have heard several members say the people bashing me are people I can learn from. They have so much wisdom and such. Then why don't they back up there claims or engage in a real conversation about design. That's what this is right? A design forum. I can't really take all the claims these guys make seriously. I won't be convinced because you say it's so. And the whole it's been discussed before is a cop out. I think there are some here that are standing on one leg and grasping for straws.
Here is a good question......why am I getting all these counseling sessions from members trying to get me to bend over for these members that have bashed me from the start? Why do so few call them out for the out rite rudeness, bad behavior, and trolling?
Because the claims which have been made about these board's design and wave riding qualities by Roy (and now yourself: "they have drive") are totally unsubstantiated and obviously pure nonsense to anyone who has been paying attention to this subject over the past few years or more importantly, have some knowledge of how wave riding vehicles work.
Consequently, your spouting off like you are this hydrodynamic genius with more surf craft know how than someone like Bill Thrailkill, may lead those knowledgeable folks to the realization that you may possibly be a tremendous kook.
Had a random thought which has some relevance to this discussion.
You know how the saying goes...All the gear and no idea!
Covers most sports these days.
Surfing through to -cycling.
I was out for an early yesterday at my local point.
Spied a guy riding a new MR that I'd eyed off many a time at the surf shop across the road.
Guy looked like a typical late 30's surfer type.
Had a chat to him about the board.
He was stoked with it.
He didn't catch a wave the whole time I was out there.
He did manage to go over the falls a couple of times attempting to stand up though.
$950 for a catapult.
I have built 3 hollow boards so far basically using Jack Youngs' techniques combined with Paul Jensons' cork rail idea. I am using plywood ribs and redwood decking. My latest is 8'2',' dome top, flat bottom, glassed on fin, glassed with 4oz epoxy, double layer on the deck, it weighs in at 19lbs.Redwood Hollow 8'2 DometopRedwood Hollow 8'2 Dometop Bottom ViewI really don't enjoy working with the cork on the rails, so I am thinking of trying to build a board using Roy Stewarts technique. The problem for me is I live in N. Calif and so far have been unable to find Paulownia locally. I am on a limited budget and having wood shipped here from the East Coast or Oz would cost too much, so I am thinking of building a "Roy" out of Redwood, but am a little concerned about weight. First off , has anyone bought plans from Roy, and if so, how complete are they? I am frankly reluctant to fork over $200 for plans to a guy who has his boards listed for sale for half a million dollars! I am intrigued by his boards though, cool shapes, interesting fins (or lack of fins). I've watched a few videos of someone riding one of his boards and it looks pretty interesting (maybe it's the red wetsuit and helmet!) Has anyone built one, or ridden one? How did it turn out, what kind wood was used, did you do the tunnel fin or a regular slyle?
How could this question spark 8 pages of nothing but crap! BTY the best is the ever humble Huck a local craftsman and gentleman, get it?
like
0
His operation was initially based under the Manhattan Beach Pier, but by 1949 he had outgrown it. And from his belly we sprang forth.
Steve83 you can make a really good performing board using Roy's building techniques. It's not the way you make it, it's the design, the outline, profile, rocker, rails that make a good board.
Nearly 100 years ago Tom Blake's boards looked like Roy's boards with the long straight tails. There's a reason they don't look like that anymore. Boards aren't the way they were when I started surfing in the mid to late 60's. It doesn't mean you can't ride one of the older style boards, but we've discovered most of their flaws. Many of the flaws were so hard to overcome the boards were never used again. Now we make old style boards more for the nostalgia, not so much for higher performance.
I have plans for building a 12' dragon, but I just don't see the logic in spending the time and money. Had the plans for quite a while. I'm trying to figure out how I can use the same techniques but create the proper profile. Rocker, rails, outline are no problem, but the way he builds the inner frame makes it hard to taper the thickness from nose to middle to tail to get the proper profile.
Steve83, you seem to have the same mindset that Roy had. I don't think I'll be of any value trying to help you.
There are pro surfers here, and former pro surfers. Many pro builders too. All the pro's are laughing their ass off at your arguments. Randy Rarick posts here and he has used Roy's pipeline board. His ride report is in the pipeline challenge thread.
If you are set on basically the same construction method have you thought about taper sanding the layers? This might help you manipulate the profile.
All the pros?
They can laugh there ass off if they like.
image_89.jpg
.
image_90.jpg
looks like alot of fun hope you surfed it
Damn, that thing is ugly!!!
[IMG]http://www2.swaylocks.com/files/image_90.jpg[/IMG]
merriam-webster.com/dictionary/assorted
I think Sammy jumped on your case too quickly and was too harsh on a noob builder
you did sammy a suck it up!
from hydro_skiper
Check out Geoff McCoys videos on his website (and you tube) about rails.
A poor misguided kid who built himself a ugly non functional surfboard-SammyA
This has been SammyA's typical post since I first posted on this forum.
What I was hoping for was a little good debate over design and construction methods. I have a hard time believing statements people make without a better explanation than "it is so". When people trash the board they seldom have any good facts to back up there accusations. It becomes hard for me to swallow these statements because I have read extensively into hydrodynamic design, laminar flow, advanced composites, Ect. I have been accused of being stuck in a certain train of thought but that really is not the case. I surf boards from 6' and up so my mind is open to a variance of design concepts. Each surf board is designed with the way it will be intended to be riddin in mind. There are infinite variables that go into the design of a surfboard. Each design charecteristic that changes will effect another board attribute. This board will be my cruiser, but my short board has its place on days were I feel like short radius turn or tricks.
Hate the game, not the player as the saying went. Sometimes it just doesn't feel like making the effort to write out some long detailed explanation why something doesn't work. Sammy gave you the Cliff Notes version. It doesn't work.
You didn't like that Sammy hasn't ridden a similar board , so he shouldn't pass judgement. Just like you said, "I have read extensively into hydrodynamic design, laminar flow, advanced composites, Ect.". So have we all. It isn't necessary to ride the board to see it is lacking the fundamentals of design. It isn't that they don't have the facts. It is more they just can't be bothered to explain it again.
You had fun with the build. You might have fun with the ride. Don't get upset that others disagree, or give long explanations of why they disagree. If you want to know why they disagree, it has all been said before and is in the archives.
Lastly, about the spelling stuff. Right click in the field of what you have typed. click "check spelling" That will help. Can't help with grammer. "Their vs. there" and such. If a guy wants to rattle your cage, he's going to do it, and it just makes it easier.
merriam-webster.com/dictionary/assorted
I have no problems with disagreements. They commonly come with personal insults, attacks, and slander. I love a good debate but think its hard for people in general to sepporate there design ideas from their emotions. It's ok. I just think if you go through the trouble to make a post on why something won't work it warrants a little explanation other than its a bad design. It's a design people love to hate because its so different and because its associated with Roy.
I also think its unfair to offer up a post of " it's a bad design and won't work go look through the forum for an explanation" this is a discussion forum. Mostly what's being offered up is here is people's opinions.
1 They never rode one.
2 They never built one.
3 The statements made are so open ended and vague they are almost impossible to reply to.
4 The arguments are geared toward why this is not a good performance shortboard.
merriam-webster.com/dictionary/assorted
Hey Steve, welcome to swaylocks. Cool that you made a board, and shared pics and talk story about it, this is the essence of what this forum is all about.
A few observations that may or may not be of value to you.
Listed on the rules page as one of the things that will make you unpopular, is repeating yourself. If you finished a board, and are stoked to post pics and comments, and find that it fits in a couple different threads, by all means post it in both. But when you post the same or almost the same pics and comments in 4, 5, or 6 different threads, you are doing exactly what the rules page tells you will make you unpopular. Further, since you are now well aware that there is a certain controversy surrounding Roy's boards and the claims he makes for them, it starts to look like you have an agenda, i.e., like you are baiting people, rather than just sharing. Not saying that's the case, just explaining how it looks to an observer.
And when you go on to criticize those who are unfavorable with the argument that they don't own a board, or haven't ridden one, it begs the question, (since you are defending it) exactly how much have you ridden it, and in what conditions? My point is, you make it sound like you just barely finished the board, and haven't ridden it much or at all, so by extolling its virtues, you sound no different (to me) than those you criticize.
I really wish we could have a more tolerant and reasoned discussion of different shapes and types of surfboards, but it has to work on both sides of the fence, so to speak.
Another thing listed in the rules as a good idea, is "don't feed the trolls". A troll, by definition, is someone who is posting to anger, enrage, or start an argument. So if you feel someone is doing this...just don't respond. By responding, you fuel the fire, and things rapidly deteriorate.
Unlike SammyA, I don't think your board is ugly, I think its cool. I don't know if I'd want to paddle out on it, but to each their own.
I am in regular contact with Roy via another forum that we are both members of, and where I am also a moderator, and believe me he is not shy about criticizing me and the way I moderate, on that forum and on this one (yes Roy is a regular reader here on Swaylocks, and I don't think any comment regarding him or his boards escapes his notice). So no, we're not buddies, but I feel his boards deserve a 'fair go' for those who do want to paddle out and try a few waves, or build one, or whatever.
For that reason, I participated to a small degree in the Pipeline Challenge rebuild, transporting the board to hand off to Tuck, who is rebuilding it. Once completed, there will be a chance for many more, esp. here in So. Calif., to ride it and report back on their observations.
I hope you, and all of us, can move forward into more productive conversations and sharing. I'm looking forward to hearing more from you, ride reports on your "parallel profile" board, and discussions about other projects and boards, etc.
To me, every member willing to share is a valuable resource, even if there are a few bumps along the way. You will likely find that even some of those you have butted heads with can be very helpful and generous in sharing, teaching, and encouraging, just as you say Roy was.
Aloha, Huck.
Have you had a look at the McCoy clip about rails yet?
Baby steps.
"That will do donkey, that'll do," Shrek.
I have heard several members say the people bashing me are people I can learn from. They have so much wisdom and such. Then why don't they back up there claims or engage in a real conversation about design. That's what this is right? A design forum. I can't really take all the claims these guys make seriously. I won't be convinced because you say it's so. And the whole it's been discussed before is a cop out. I think there are some here that are standing on one leg and grasping for straws.
Here is a good question......why am I getting all these counseling sessions from members trying to get me to bend over for these members that have bashed me from the start? Why do so few call them out for the out rite rudeness, bad behavior, and trolling?
;
your move
cheers huie
now retired
Because the claims which have been made about these board's design and wave riding qualities by Roy (and now yourself: "they have drive") are totally unsubstantiated and obviously pure nonsense to anyone who has been paying attention to this subject over the past few years or more importantly, have some knowledge of how wave riding vehicles work.
Consequently, your spouting off like you are this hydrodynamic genius with more surf craft know how than someone like Bill Thrailkill, may lead those knowledgeable folks to the realization that you may possibly be a tremendous kook.
No; It's not an ironing board.
Huck,
Well said... You tried...
(-:
cheers huie
now retired
Had a random thought which has some relevance to this discussion.
You know how the saying goes...All the gear and no idea! Covers most sports these days. Surfing through to -cycling. I was out for an early yesterday at my local point. Spied a guy riding a new MR that I'd eyed off many a time at the surf shop across the road. Guy looked like a typical late 30's surfer type. Had a chat to him about the board. He was stoked with it. He didn't catch a wave the whole time I was out there. He did manage to go over the falls a couple of times attempting to stand up though. $950 for a catapult.
Hi
I have built 3 hollow boards so far basically using Jack Youngs' techniques combined with Paul Jensons' cork rail idea. I am using plywood ribs and redwood decking. My latest is 8'2',' dome top, flat bottom, glassed on fin, glassed with 4oz epoxy, double layer on the deck, it weighs in at 19lbs.Redwood Hollow 8'2 DometopRedwood Hollow 8'2 Dometop Bottom ViewI really don't enjoy working with the cork on the rails, so I am thinking of trying to build a board using Roy Stewarts technique. The problem for me is I live in N. Calif and so far have been unable to find Paulownia locally. I am on a limited budget and having wood shipped here from the East Coast or Oz would cost too much, so I am thinking of building a "Roy" out of Redwood, but am a little concerned about weight. First off , has anyone bought plans from Roy, and if so, how complete are they? I am frankly reluctant to fork over $200 for plans to a guy who has his boards listed for sale for half a million dollars! I am intrigued by his boards though, cool shapes, interesting fins (or lack of fins). I've watched a few videos of someone riding one of his boards and it looks pretty interesting (maybe it's the red wetsuit and helmet!) Has anyone built one, or ridden one? How did it turn out, what kind wood was used, did you do the tunnel fin or a regular slyle?
How could this question spark 8 pages of nothing but crap! BTY the best is the ever humble Huck a local craftsman and gentleman, get it?
His operation was initially based under the Manhattan Beach Pier, but by 1949 he had outgrown it. And from his belly we sprang forth.
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