SHAPER'S HOTSEAT: Greg Loehr

OK, to get the ball rolling...  One of my favorite things about swaylocks is the pictures - would love it if you could share a few of: you surfing, hanging with the surf gang back in the day, boards you have made, and collector boards in your personal collection.

Would like to know your opinion of glassing polyurethane foam with epoxy resin - I have heard some frown on the practise.

And would like to know what your current viewpoint is of the best way to seal an eps blank for glassing?

Is that all you got?  

Seriously, that's one impressive resume!

One of my favorite projects of yours that I've seen (on Facebook) was your little wooden 'river boat' for shooting the canyons out west.  Care to share any details on that little beauty?

Kayu, not sure if that was a cover, there was a center fold in the 1971 Surfer Photo Annual that was a yellow board so maybe that's the one you mean.  Great board that one one of my all time favorites.  Shaped by Gene Cottrell at Oceanside Surfboards in Melbourne, FL. 6'2" X 21 X 17"N X 17" T squash.  Really it was just about the shape of a Mini Simmons although it was a single fin.  

Aloha Greg

Had my right done last feb. and it still feels unnatural if you know what I mean,  gonna delay the left for awhile. Got a "frozen" right shoulder with a partially torn rotator but no need for surgery unfortunately everyone says recovery is one to two year process.

Sucks getting old.

Thanks for your advice and inspiration since you had both knees done t the same time.  It was hard using an HMO like Kaiser.

Question though, have you ever gotten back to where you where you were before the surgery or is it something you just have to give up trying to achieve?

Alsp any possibilty that you'll get stocked as retail one of these days?

I know FBH stocks bio and used to stock resinX sure would be be nice to have RR as an option.

Greenroom has made a big push out here.

finally, what's your opinion on epoxy over PU?

Is that still the strongest build you can get and more of a weight problem?

Looks like Huie's solved the weight issue with Midget's new pink blanks..

Hey, Greg, long time.. I remember the guy 25+ yrs ago in flip flops who came into the factory and wanted to know costs to custom mold blanks in eps....I quit being a plant manager back then but I'm  glad Marko got involved!!  Foam Fab is still molding custom stuff, should have jumped into the blank market, $$ lost, too bad...LOL  I am retiring from education in Feb.  Anyway, since you are kinda west coast, who, in you opinion is making the best bead (I heard BASF is no longer making bead) and molder in block in the range of 1.2 lb to 1.5 lb out here on the West Coast? Any other thoughts on West Coast EPS/Epoxy construction would be appreciated!!  Thanks, BKB

Aloha Oneida, my knees came out great.  As you know recovery takes a while, thought I was pretty good at 6 months but was better still at one year and actually far better still at two years.  I can do pretty much anything I want accept kneel which hurts.  I'm snowboarding now and that's great, as good as before.  Couldn't golf until now, the twisting hurt but at two years I'm fine.  Same with running, at one year I couldn't but now I can.  As for surfing, my geometry changed which changed my balance.  I get to snowboard enough that I've worked it out there but living in AZ I don't have enough time in the water to work that out. But I always loved body surfing, nearly as much as surfing, so at the beach that's what I do now.  

As for FH we do sell to them but I think they focus more on selling their own brand.  They've never had much competition and now I hear they do and that's where GR hooked up. Different markets take time and strategy and frankly a bit of luck.  We do our best but it's a big world out there and frankly my attention often is on product development and strengthening our existing distribution.

As for Epoxy over PU, it takes a high modulus resin system IMHO so you choices ar limited.  What we have is Kwik Kick which works nice but I've never tested any system outside of ours so I don't know.  West System would work but would look like you laminated it in root beer in about a week.  

Hi Greg

I had some leftover innegra (2oz polypropylene weave) so I vacuum bagged it using a fresh bag and no peel ply.  Direct lamination-to-bag.  The innegra is sandwiched between 2 layers of 4oz on a 2# EPS core.   I rollered the lam prior to putting it in the bag and ran the breather on the dry side.  On the deck side I ran the lam pretty dry and ended up with a 75% fill, and on the bottom I ran it a little wetter and got a complete fill.   I was real happy with the deck side because I like a little texture on my decks, and the bottom came out with a really clean fill coat.  I don't see any bubbles or pin air.  

Do you have any tips or suggestions or observations on this process and how to improve on it?  I was happy with the results I got but there's always room for improvement and I know you've done it all.  

I also wanted to ask about mixing resin usage on a board.  I have some 2.6oz S-Glass with a really tight weave that I have been using for deckpads and fin patches.  For deck patches I've been laying 2 layers at opposing diagonal bias to spread the load differently from the primary lamination.    I also did a deckpatch on one board (PU core) using a 4oz hemp weave.    What's your opinion about using a stiffer modulus resin for deckpatches in general and these two materials in particular?  

Lastly, (and sorry about being greedy)

Surf epoxies branded as being eco-friendly have become quite fashionable.  You're an acknowledged expert on resin composition so I think most people here will be interested in your opinions about the topic.  

Without mentioning any company names or other identifiers, can you give us an idea what the spread is between the cleanest vs dirtiest epoxies that get marketed for surfboard construction?  

What's the potential for improvement on the eco-basis?

Are you aware of any positive or negative effects on performance that may be caused by eco-related differences in these epoxies when compared to the epoxies that aren't marketed as eco-friendly?  

Hi Greg,

Thanks so much for doing this. I've glassed about 50 boards with RR. Mostly Kwik Kick for the last 30 or so, and primarily over PU foam. One question and one request..

1. Please spill the beans on this "Ultra Epoxy". What is it?

2. Do you have any plans to release some sort of sealer or speed finish or "secret sauce" as a final coat over epoxy? I currently use Behr concrete/tile sealer, but I think the perfect sealer would be a little bit more viscous and be able to cover up minor weave-burns and imperfections a little bit better. It would be great to be able to aggressively sand epoxy hot coats with 100 grit and then lay down a nice thin coat of something to seal it all up. Am I the only one looking for this?

Thanks!

When I sand epoxy after having only cured at room temp for 24 hours, I get a slight chemical burn on my face. But sanding after a post cure at 110 degrees for 24 hours, there is no chemical burn to my face.

Is there some bad chemical in epoxy that goes away after post curing? Am I crazy?

One of my fondest memories is Greg pulling up to our factory in Atlantic Beach Fla.He would be driving this huge Dodge Power Wagon with 40 blanks crammed in it.He looked like a wildman.This was around 72' or so.

Most of you know him as the epoxy guy but he was power shaping really sweet PU boards when Natural Art was king of the world.

Hi Greg,

If you were glassing a dozen short boards a year for yourself and friends, I'm wondering what fibres you think would be the best at the current time? 

Foam most often used being USblanks PU foam with a stringer (red or blue), which is what is available where we get them cut. 

Kwik Kick resin.

Currently using a mixture of S glass and E glass, but keep looking and reading about all the alternatives.

Thinkin'  Mr. Loehr is in transit so don't load him up too much, HA

Hi Surfteach. I'm a bit out of the loop on bead stock.  Nova made the best about 10 years ago which still may be the case but don't ask me what product number, it's been a long time.  As for block I use White Hot from ProWall which is right up the road here in AZ.  I've heard that the place in Kingman also makes good stuff. The foam in CA has urban blowing agent emission restrictions on it so it's not that good for boards. FL we use Imperial or Carpenter.  

Hi G Daddy, sounds like your moving ahead with the bagging nicely.  I do like Innegra between layers of fabric which has always seemed ideal.  As for higher modulus patches that's something that one of my board building mentors, Ted James of Fox Surfboards, used to swear by.  I saw the results and I have to agree with what I saw.  Couple of things about high modulus though, using it throughout the board can cause the laminate to be brittle which can cause failures.  I've seen this in some of our earlier formulations. Also the modulus should follow the choice of fabric, high modulus fabric goes with high modulus resin, medium modulus fabric goes with a more medium modulus fabric and so on.  And your suggestion of bi axial can be used to advantage as well.  One other aspect is resin ratio, lower resin ration allows you to use a higher modulus resin because with more fabric content you are effectively lowering elongation.  

A few out here are trying for optimum performance  in crappie surf. So at the moment and I speak for myself only.  Combinations of rocker, shape and  the current “flat tucked edge” bottom  is where we are at. So Cal.

Considering your FLA experience I humbly ask your take on bottoms that work in lesser conditions.

Mahalo

For the last year and a half we have produced high bio content resins, about 40%. When we looked at existing bio content resins most contained a percentage of epoxidized oils, tall oil mostly.  These resins are characterized with low physical strength and quite low Tg.  My opinion is that making a lower strength product in order to be "green" in not really "green."  So we were on the hunt for a better way which we found by using a glycerine based, bio deisel derivative, ECH in our chemistry.  Using this method left us with exactly the same physicals as we've always had.  Unfortunately after almost two years of production a very large European paint concern, Anzo Nobel, bought our suppliers entire production and we were phased out.  So we went on the hunt for a new supplier and at this time we haven't found one for our North American production.  Our China facility is up and running with a replacement which gives us about 50% coverage.  At this point well just continue to search until something comes online, it will and well once again be able to produce bio resins the right way.

Hi Barry, The new Ultra additive is an optical brightener that we can include in any of our resins.  It is quite a bit brighter than anything we've made previously which seems to be a trend that some builders are following.  It certainly makes brighter boards that any other brightening method.  It also holds up very well lasting at least 300 hours in direct sunlight.  This was a lot of work for something entirely cosmetic which suddenly seemd to have fallen on the shoulders of material suppliers.  Oh well.  As for post cure, the can have incredible result but unfortunately we are limited there by what our foam will take.  But here's a cool way of figuring post cure.  Room temp epoxies cure in one week at 77F.  Every 10F added cuts cure by 1/2.  So 87 is 3.5 days, 97 1.75 days, 107  20 hours, 117 is 12 hours 127 is 5 hours, 137 is 2.5 hours and 147 is 1.25 hours.  You can stop there because the foam won't take any more.  When you get above the 127 level your going to begin to see a much different animal than RT cure.  Cross link density improves significantly so that your modulus and elongation both go up.  To do this takes some equipment and some tests to get it exactly dialed in.  To get an idea of what this is like wrap a piece of wet cloth around a soda can and heat at 150 for an hour or so.  Then do one at room temp for a week.  Demold each and compare.

Hi Dwight, a lot depends on the epoxy your using.  It can also depend also on how chemical sensitive you are.  And certainly a full cure will reduce the chemicals available that can cause some reaction.  The chemicals don't disappear from the epoxy they instead react within the chemistry instead of relating to your skin.  Fully reacted resin is inert. But it takes a week at room temperature to achieve full cure. Before that there is still reactivity going on.  All epoxies are not equal when it comes to sensitizing skin. Some may cause very significant problems, some cause almost none.  I designed ours for me and my crew.  It was very important to me to have the safest thing I could get.  

Awhile back I ruffled some feathers when I said that working with Resin Research Kwik Kick in extreme heat (over 100 degrees f) I cut back a little on hardener, got a lecture about exact ratios, weakening the mix, etc.  So is that a real no-no?  I didn't experience any strength issues that I noticed, but wanted to hear it from the source.

Hi Everysurfer, we have a low viscosity system, the Composite Pro System.  It primarily for infusion, fabric intensive composites and fabrics that are difficult to wet.  Look at our website resinresearch.net under composite pro.  2070 is probably where to start.

I don't like doing that Huck, it does make the board yellow faster.  Instead, laminate a side in two batches.  Mix the first batch and do the stringer to one rail, finish that, mix the second batch and do the other side.  No one ever did this in the polyester days because it didn't work well but with epoxy this works great.  I do 12 foot SUP's in summer in Arizona no problem.

Cleanliness, I have fond memories of those good ole days too.  Things were much simpler back then.  Waves were better too.

BTW, had a fun day of Golf with Ed Angulo, Steve Walden and Don Bowers today. At the 19th hole after a few beers we figured that together we had a total of 186 years of shaping experience.  Damn we're old.

You know, I've never really had fish eyes and could never figure what people were doing to get them, especially since Additive F.  Then I found it. I buzz the laminate with some 100 or 80, then wipe off the dust with a paper towel or old t shirt and the hot coat the thing making sure you brush it out enough times to make it flow.  That's all there is to it.  It's the brushing that does the trick.

Newbie type question(s), if that's OK?

With all your experience and knowledge, what tips or tricks would you give to someone moving from PE glassing to Epoxy?

What would you recommend for an inexperienced "backyarder" - Epoxy over PU or Epxoy over EPS / XPS?

Thanks for your time.

Hey Greg - back when I was a grom there was a magazine issue, either Surfer or Surfing...featuring "The 25 most influential shapers of all time" or such...and there amongst the usual suspects was yourself, pictured with a big block of EPS. It'd be a spin-out to see that again.

That was my introduction to you, and of course I later worked with you. That was a pleasure - I fondly remember watching you mix the RR formula by kicking a 44 gallon drum up and down the drive...so non-rocket science it was a relief!

All the best

JD

That was a cool time at FW Josh.  Surfing Mags top ten shapers of all time, I was very honored but I'm not sure you can boil it down to ten, maybe one hundred but so many have had great influence.  I grew up in Cocoa Beach.  Pretty much everyone was involved in the space program at some level, all the parents. I would go to parties with my parents and all of us surf guys would be huddled in a corner talking surf while the geek dads would be huddled in a corner talking about launching a Saturn 5.  We thought we were so cool but 50 years after we're gone no one will remember anything we did but in a thousand years they'll still be talking about what those geeky dads did.  They had a saying back then, "Low tech is high tech," which is pretty much the same as KISS.  Rolling drums was a way to get it done.  

Hi Wingnut.  My opinion on foam has been, for a very long time, that it's all about the waves your riding vs. foam density.  If your riding small waves, under head high, you should be riding EPS.  Lower density rides better and the lower you go the better it'll ride.  As you get into some juice begin to ride higher density EPS, maybe XPS.  As the waves get more serious you begin to move into higher densities in urethane and then if you into really big stuff you begin riding wood cores.  Watching the pro guys now, especially Slater, they generally are riding EPS and when the swell starts pumping they switch to PU.  Then you watch the tow in guys and their using high density PU or balsa.  I like epoxy over everything (bet that's a surprise) because it's easier, stronger and nicer to work with.  In my latter days of board building laminating became my favorite job because it was clean, quiet and not real physical.  I'd go to work in the evening when it was cool, turn on the music and shoot half a dozen sides.  PE isn't like that. Rush, rush, rush with a mask on and acetone and vapors.  As for tips this place has always been the place to ask specific questions.  Lots of good stuff here.

Hi Mattwho, the guys I work with in FL are using wider tails (16") in gutless crap with deep concave running all the way through the bottoms now.  1/4 to 3/8ths deep.  Mostly four fins or three fins with a small fin in the back.  Just gets down to planing in nothing.

...epoxy is not easier and nicer than polyesters as you say...but you are the seller so...

the fact is all the problems that people mention here and using your brand that s appropiate one; more problems with the others.

None problem in all type of weather with polyesters except in extremely low temp...but in that case epoxy cannot play.

then this thread is turning in a publicity of a resin brand.

Hi Greg-

Thanks for being in the hot seat. -J

For surfboards, do you post-cure at the end (after everything) or before final sanding (after all epoxy layers, before any other materials or finishes)?

What do you think of acrylic floor sealers and 2-part automotive clears over epoxy?