SHAPER'S HOTSEAT: Greg Loehr

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gdaddy's picture
Joined: 10/31/2008

Greg, the nylon was Huie's idea.  I only thought of switching in the veil for the mesh to act as a moisture barrier when doing a veneer over EPS.   I had a bad (water instrusion) experience with a direct veneer>EPS bottom on the first one I did, but using 4oz under the veneers for the rest of the boards I've done like that seems like overkill.  

Huie doesn't have that problem because he's using those primo Aussie PU cores.  But now that he's talking about the other properties of the net I'm thinking of maybe doing both over EPS and just sticking to the net when doing a veneer over PU.  

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gregloehr's picture
Joined: 03/22/2004

I've been using White Hot which is made right up the road here in AZ.  Very nice stuff and no water intrusion at all. I agree that 4oz is overkill, maybe on longboards or guns, but on performance boards in small waves the nylon will be nice.  Nice idea Huie.

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gregloehr's picture
Joined: 03/22/2004

So this on the right is Ultra, the board on the left is brightened with PH but doesn't look real bright anymore.  Both new boards.

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newschoolblue's picture
Joined: 06/30/2004

Dang, that's an amazing difference.

And beautiful shapes to boot.

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L.I.T.'s picture
Joined: 10/08/2014

gregloehr wrote:

LIT, thanks, that was a nice group of questions.

:-) Cheers!

But hey, thank you for agreeing to come online and giving us all here the opportunity to ask, then answering each one so swiftly. You've been seriously pumping out those responses ever since the instant this thread first got fired up - guess that gives us another pretty good clue as to how you've managed to accomplish so much over your career; high productivity levels! :-)

It's been a real treat, so once again, thanks! :-)

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Huck's picture
Joined: 12/07/2009

2nd that

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gregloehr's picture
Joined: 03/22/2004

Hear, hear Ace. Thanks guys, I've always had fun here.  Sam shapes very nice.  He took over the factory in FL when I left.  Still surfs great, just got a little backside barrel spread in the new ESM mag.  I'm very lucky to have had him onboard for the last three decades.

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artz's picture
Joined: 02/01/2007

Greg, First let me compliment you on your short and astute synapses of International business. So when are you taking RR public ;) I would like to take this back to your surfing career. you Have surfed with and competed against some of the best surfers from the 1960s on. I know it is hard to put anyone above another but who are a few of the surfers you admired most or competitors you dreaded seeing in a heat?

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According to Mikki Dora Malibu went to the Dogs in 1964. The Chumash Indians will tell you it was 1664.

artz's picture
Joined: 02/01/2007

Greg, First let me compliment you on your short and astute synapses of International business. So when are you taking RR public ;) I would like to take this back to your surfing career. you Have surfed with and competed against some of the best surfers from the 1960s on. I know it is hard to put anyone above another but who are a few of the surfers you admired most or competitors you dreaded seeing in a heat?

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According to Mikki Dora Malibu went to the Dogs in 1964. The Chumash Indians will tell you it was 1664.

gregloehr's picture
Joined: 03/22/2004

Oh yea, there a question Greg asked me back on page one I forgot.  About different projects I've built.  He mentioned the prop I did for UF's man powered plane that crossed the English Channel.  Did a number of human powered boats and subs with FL Tech.  Did a solar car with them as well which was an awesome car.  Timothy Tice was the grad student who was the engineer on that one, brilliant kid.  There was a race from Epcot to GM headquarters in Detroit.  Our car was well in the lead but we hit the mountains and the engine overheated.  Tim went and got a hair dryer, took the heating elements out and duck taped in position.  They finished well but that time out cost them too much to win.  Lots of exotic surfboard, sailboard, kiteboard, snowboard, SUP projects with different people and companies.  Did a couple seminars at Cerritos College which were really nice.  Did another at Channins on the hill in Encinitas after Clark closed.  That one was quite well attended. I was really nervous laminating in front of all these legendary board builders. Did a fun one with a bunch of the Grand Canyon dory builders last winter.  We built 10 SUP's and had a great time doing it.  It was in Flagstaff and it was the first time I ever looked up from a shape and saw snow dumping from the sky.  Finally, this guy from Tampa came over with this gigantic chunk of foam and wanted a Catamaran pontoon shaped.  16 foot.  That was a nice challenge and maybe the biggest piece of foam I ever shaped. You really made me work on that one Greg.

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gregloehr's picture
Joined: 03/22/2004

What a great question, Artz.  Lopez, Nuuhiwa, Tomson, Cairns, Roland, Tabeling, Crawford, both Aikau's, MP, BK, Rory, Bertelman, Aipa, Mark Warren, Slater, Hobgood, O'Rorke, Rasmussen, Purpus, Drouyn, Beatty, Mulhern, Kechele, Staples, James Jones, many more I can't think of right now. Thanks for making me remember that.

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foamdust's picture
Joined: 03/18/2004
Greg, I think I speak fof everyone in thanking you for participating in this Q/A session. Almost every question I can think of has been asked and answered. I've always wanted to know who shaped that red board you were riding at Pipe In "Fluid Drive", where you had that insane barrel. Back then It seemed you had to be Lopez, Rory Russell, Mike Armstrong, etc. to get deep at Pipe but you and other east coasters...Crawford, Rick Raz, proved everyone wrong. Best wishes in 2015.
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"Its not rocket science..."

idan1500's picture
Joined: 12/21/2013

sorry, im confused, is the new ULTRA are some kind of additive ? i mean like you adding additive F in a batch of  kwick kick?. or is it a new kind of epoxy resin that has nothing to do with kwick kick?

when it goes out  to the market?

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gregloehr's picture
Joined: 03/22/2004

Idan, the Ultra is a new resin modification, modified by us.  We can make any of our resins bright now with the Ultra package.  After a long test schedule we've found that it will generally look best for the longest time when combined with the CE (blue) package.  So we are suggesting the 2000 CE Ultra or the Kwik Kick CE Ultra as the brightened resin of choice for boards.

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gregloehr's picture
Joined: 03/22/2004

Owl shaped that beautiful 8 foot Pipeline gun. Crawford and I always talked about Pipeline when we were kids.  We surfed together everyday and pushed each other, friendly competition, lots of days at Sebastian Inlet.  Monster Hole too.  We were very aware that the only East Coaster who'd ever had a presence in HI was Valuzzi and no one at Pipe.  We were determined to change that. 

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gregloehr's picture
Joined: 03/22/2004

That's the Owl board, sweet ride.  

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greggriffin's picture
Joined: 05/09/2005
I got Owl going full steam about 3 hours ago , I know what buttons to push for the maximum experience ;-)
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foamdust's picture
Joined: 03/18/2004
Thanks Greg for sharing the story behind that board and that era. I find It amazing that through modern technology stories and information like this can be shared. Thanks.
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"Its not rocket science..."

tenderloin tom's picture
Joined: 12/12/2012

What is epoxy made of ?

Thanks

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Scrub it kook

gregloehr's picture
Joined: 03/22/2004

Love seeing Owl Greg.  Glad he's still Owl.  One of a kind.  Tell him I said hi.

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greggriffin's picture
Joined: 05/09/2005
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BarrySnyder's picture
Joined: 02/21/2009

Still one of the biggest characters on the North Shore.

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Barry Snyder

Surfboards made by hand. Not machine.

http://barrysnyderdesigns.com

Instagram @barrysnyderdesigns

lazlo's picture
Joined: 06/25/2013

Hi Greg,

Thank you for doing this.

 This Shapers hot seat is great!

 I am building hollow wood boards, and am using your resins.

I am sealing the inside before closing them up, but un thickened epoxy is quite heavy.and you can't squeegee the excess off all the insides like a flat panel.

My question is,can I thin the resin to go on much thinner and perhaps penetrate the wood somewhat.

What type thinner and how much can be used?Or would another product be better.

I've heard of that Smiths penetrating resin, which sounds OK in the descriptions I read.

One option I considered for light weight, is spraying some kind of water based polyurethane before closing up the board.

Since I'm using Resin Research epoxy for everything else, I just wondered if it could be thinned for that use as well.

On the subject of thinning resin, can you thin it with denatured alchohol or something when laminating to use  less resin?

If so, how much could you thin it.?Or is it a bad idea?

I'm just trying to think of ways to shave a bit off the glass jobs on these already heavier woodies.

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artz's picture
Joined: 02/01/2007

Greg I have met that guy from Tampa with his catamaran SUP.  He wins a lot of open races on that thing.  He has been rather closed mouth on who shaped it.  I thought maybe it was a home build. 

He is now building a Catamaran Fish sup but the design is all wrong stable but needs more float in the front. I have been working on my own design. My thinking is that cat SUP tunnel hulls are the way to go for flat water.
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According to Mikki Dora Malibu went to the Dogs in 1964. The Chumash Indians will tell you it was 1664.

artz's picture
Joined: 02/01/2007

Should have put the above as a question.  As to your thoughts on SUP design?

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According to Mikki Dora Malibu went to the Dogs in 1964. The Chumash Indians will tell you it was 1664.

greggriffin's picture
Joined: 05/09/2005
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greggriffin's picture
Joined: 05/09/2005
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greggriffin's picture
Joined: 05/09/2005

 

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huie's picture
Joined: 03/02/2007

they should now build a tri hull''   and they will find just how much better it will be than a twin.

 cheers huie

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cheers huie
now retired

greggriffin's picture
Joined: 05/09/2005

Video was taken 10 minutes from my house  :-)

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GregTate's picture
Joined: 03/18/2004

Artz, not me on the SUP cat. GL shaped that hull for me a few years ago. 18 feet by 16 inches and it was perfect to my eye. 

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Personally I'm always ready to learn, although I do not always like being taught. - Winston Churchill

newschoolblue's picture
Joined: 06/30/2004

Hi Greg,

Just curious, are there any prospects with regard to UV cure epoxy? 

Thanks,

Andrew

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pompano's picture
Joined: 06/22/2005

doh!  missed you at the show.  so, an easy one.  the addF i got from sam a year or so back?  how long do I keep it?  I'm getting ready to do a coupla compsands this summer. love your travel pics.  glad to see your knees are working well.

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gregloehr's picture
Joined: 03/22/2004

Hi Laslo, thin t he resin with about 20% xylene.  Maybe try one of those small foam rollers, I was always able to get the resin really thin with those.  Let the resin breathe for a couple days after to let the xylene leave.

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gregloehr's picture
Joined: 03/22/2004

Hi Artz,  SUP design is interesting as far as race boards go because they are true displacement hulls.  As such the narrower and longer you go the faster the board will paddle. It's a hull speed issue.  I've paddled with racers on the same size equipment and in a mile long race they'd beat me by a couple lengths (I'm no racer). It takes some serious horse power to get a displacement hull to run faster than the following wave you've created.  If your in a class race pretty much the winner will be the one with the narrowest board.  Racing in unlimited takes a real gorilla to push that much board especially if there's wind.  All this stuff already happened in kayaks and as the kids grew up on narrower equipment they began dominating.  So they finally classed all the measurements.  

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gregloehr's picture
Joined: 03/22/2004

Thanks Greg, nice links.

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gregloehr's picture
Joined: 03/22/2004

Hi Newschool,  I've worked on UV epoxies, I've had numerous samples.  The problem is that the epoxy oligimers need a very broad spectrum UV.  The lighting systems cost upwards 100K. Not many shops could swing that. There's some other high solids options out there but the results are pretty cheesy for board building.  Boards require high end physicals.

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gregloehr's picture
Joined: 03/22/2004

Hi Pompano, good to see you again.  Add F doesn't last forever and the only way to know is to test it. Yes the knees are good and the travel photography has been fun.  

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idan1500's picture
Joined: 12/21/2013
Hey Greg i think you are the only one that can answer me on this one: sometimes when im glassing PU With Kwick kick i get a yellowish spot were i put extra patches(fins patches,decals, etc.) What is the reason for that? What should i do?
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massive_swell's picture
Joined: 10/08/2009

Hey Greg,

2 Epoxy questions.....sorry they're  tough ones.......can't find it anywhere.....figure you're the right guy.....if anyone....

What impact do common fillers used  have on the properties (Tensile strength modulus and % elongation) of cured epoxy.  Stuff like Microballoons, cabosil, "q-cell" graphite powder milled fibers. etc.Trying to understand when to use/not use what and what i need to concerned about overdoing it the some fillers. 

What if anything could I add to an epoxy that's readily available(ish) to make it more "rubbery" and  increase % elongation at the expense of other properties, if  I desired this property over others.  

Thanks. 

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rickter's picture
Joined: 12/30/2008

Thanks for posting, Greg, this thread is pretty F'n great.

To piggyback on the question about Add F, what is the usable shelf life of epoxy resins and hardeners (CE, KK, Fast, etc.)? I've been told about 1 year as a rule of thumb when stored at a consistent temp. Is that about right?

I recently unearthed some old (3+ years??) jugs of CE and fast hardener I had forgoten about. Resin looks good. The hardener was pretty yellow so I did a test panel. As I anticipated it was noticeably yellow on scrap foam, but everything kicked fine and seemed to pass the "thumb test". I figured I would try this with some tint to overcome the cosmetic factor. Am I trippin? Does the potential strength of epoxy degrade with age? Thanks again.

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gregloehr's picture
Joined: 03/22/2004

Idan, your scraping the inside of the bucket with the squeegee and you have some material in the corners that aren't thoroughly mixed.  Anywhere that is resin rich with yellow a bit faster.

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gregloehr's picture
Joined: 03/22/2004

asHi Massive Swell, generally fillers increase modulus, Tg, and impact strength.  The obviously also increase viscosity which makes their use on general purpose resins limited.  We have a low viscosity system, the Composite Pro, which I have sold to boat manufacturers with a 10% Cab-O-Sil content to increase those desired attributes.  With boards using such a thing would be useless since our laminates are so light but on a boat with 50 ounces on the exterior of a cored laminate there can be real advantage.

As for changing the modulus we do sell resins which feature that.  Not something you can add yourself but we do have two resin which are more flexible than the standard.

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gregloehr's picture
Joined: 03/22/2004

Ricker, you did the appropriate test and your good to go.  As long as the stuff kicks and the laminate looks good, continue.  BTW shelf life is usually just industries way of offering a guarantee.  Most products are good far beyond shelf life.

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L.I.T.'s picture
Joined: 10/08/2014

I got a million questions, but I asked a bunch earlier on and had them all answered, so 'figured I'd hold back for a while to give everyone else their fair share of asking questions too.

But now the thread's quietened down a bit I reckon it's reasonable for me to ask a few more.

First, a little housekeeping, then, in my next couple of posts we'll get to the fun stuff.

Okay, let's get the housekeeping out of the way; I've been intending to build a board (or two!) for the last year or so, and had in the back of my mind that I'd like to use RR epoxy to build 'em with.

I've got the time and money to do so at the moment, so recently I contacted Surftech Australia (listed on the RR website as the Australian distributor) asking for a price list and shipping costs for their RR products.

The reply was short and to the point (which I actually appreciate): "Sorry unavailable".

Is there a new distributor I ought to be contacting? How do I get my hands on some RR epoxy and what ought I to be using?

The plan is a VH-grade EPS core (28kg per cubic metre/1.75lb per cubic foot). 3mm-thick  3-layer lauan pine plywood stringer (center layer looks to me like it's ~2mm thick with two 0.5mm veneers either side of it) from the local hardware store.

I'm thinking of laminating one layer of Cerex Orion 0.75oz over the core, then 6oz + 4oz fibreglass on the bottom, and 6oz+4oz+4oz fibreglass on the deck.

I built myself a vac-rig a while back ('built a wood-skinned kiteboard in the past with it), but am not sure if it's worth using on this build as I'm trying to minimise the chances of failure seeing as it's my first time building a surfboard - 'might use it for the Cerex layer, but am thinking of hand-lamming the fibreglass ones to produce a durable rather than light board (i.e. the thicker layer of resin from hand-lamming should make it a bit more ding-proof?).

Bear in mind, (and this might make it a little more interesting for you), this is a kneeboard I'm making here (to replace my current one which I've been riding for ages and is getting pretty long in the tooth nowadays; has got a decent delam happening on the deck/rail area). Us kneeboarders do things differently and the high-pressure areas are out near the rail rather than at the stringer.

A standup shortboard (also to replace my current one which is also getting pretty old), is next on the list - might do a T-flex. Might do an all-nylon. Or might do a Bert Burger style compsand. Haven't made my mind up yet; do I need to be worrying about using different RR products/epoxies for this depending on the build style?

Cheers!

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L.I.T.'s picture
Joined: 10/08/2014

Okay, now for the fun stuff!  :-)

Top of the list of questions I'd most like to hear the answer to is this; In the past you've been described as a fairly outspoken guy on various issues - e.g. Epoxy, East Coast surfers, etc, etc.

So what's on your mind nowadays?

Come on Greg, cut loose!

I don't know how others feel about this, but I'd sure like to hear it.

In a similiar vein, you mentioned that one of the reasons you go to work in the mornings is because you love being challenged, being told you can' t do something, and then going out and proving that statement wrong; what are you trying to prove wrong right now?

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L.I.T.'s picture
Joined: 10/08/2014

gregloehr wrote:

Basically the three fin is an incredibly versitile design. Changing the fins allows that nearly every board can be good, even great.....

....So I had four rear fins I used, a 2 inch, a 3 inch a 4 inch and a full size which was 4.5 or so. The 2 inch was for Cocoa Beach style waves, mush. The board glides better and planes easier. The 3 inch was for Melbourne Beach, Satellite Beach type waves. Little more hold and a bit freer edges. The 4 was for Sebastian Inlet. Again more lift for the front edges and more hold. The full size for was for Hatteras. The waves are powerful and hollow so the 4.5 worked great. Same board, four trailing fins.

Okay, that does it; I've been thinking of have a go at making up some fins as I'd snapped a couple of side fins over the last 6 months, and have now only got one full set to share between two boards (what's more the two side fins in it are slightly different designs) , but after reading this I'm definitely going to have a go.

Plan is to make up 2 side fins and 4 centres - however, since I've heard you're a fairly big guy greg, I'm wondering if instead of building a 2.5, 3, 4 and 4.5 inch centre fins to match what you were using, I should be scaling all of these sizes down proportionately according to my difference in weight (I'm currently riding a mix of FCS G5's/M5's)?

You were also talking about how altering your edges will alter the pitch/balance of the board.

An easy way to temporarily do this is with a bit of paraffin wax; but after looking into it a bit, I've found you can buy different kinds that have melting points from 40C all the way up to 80C. I'm guessing to avoid delam's when applying it, you'd try to use one with a low melting temp, but I'm also guessing wouldn't want it to melt while it was on the board (e.g. Inside the car boot on a hot sunny day) which would require a higher melting temp -> what kind of a melting temp should we be looking for here? E.g. What temp will a PU/PE and EPS/Epoxy board be able to handle respectively before there's a chance of incurring a delam?

Once I've got these fins and wax figured out and ready, as a windsurfing friend of mine likes to say when he's spotted a good wind forecast and wants to call a session for it: "It's playtime!!!" :-)

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grasshopper's picture
Joined: 03/18/2004

greg - it would be fun to hear some more stories about building some of the first thin, high rockered, deep concave boards. the fashion now is on the complete opposite side of the spectrum! 

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https://instagram.com/grasshoppersurfboards/ 

L.I.T.'s picture
Joined: 10/08/2014

This is something that I probably won't get around to for a while, but what are RR epoxies like for building snowboards with. Have you built any with them yourself G.L.?

'Reason being I'd like to have a crack at building one of my favourite old snowboards that went out of production years ago. Have had a few snowboards since then, but none of them have been as good as this old one (am still using it as my "rockhopper" on days with less-than-perfect cover, and if it hadn't lost most of it's camber/pop, none of the others would be getting a look-in on the good days).

Cheers!

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ghettorat's picture
Joined: 06/30/2010

Greg Loehr's a super-hero...

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