SHAPER'S HOTSEAT: Bill Barnfield

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laky's picture
Joined: 03/09/2015

Aloha Bill

I have long enjoyed your various posts on Swaylocks about your measurement driven design methodology.

I would like to hear your your thoughts in general about scaling boards boards upwards or downwards lengthwise.

For example, I plan to scale down my one of my favorite guns from 9'2" to 8'6".
 
Existing dimensions are: 9'2" long x 20 3/4" wide x 11 1/2" nose width x 11/2" tail width x 3.5" thick, quad fins
 
Proposed dimensions are: 8'6" long x 3 3/8" thick (hopefully), width undecided, multi system fins (quad/tri).
I would like to keep about 3 3/8" of thickness to conserve as much volume as possible.
 
My existing 9'2" is right on the bulls-eye, to use your sniper metaphor. It's my go-to board for double overhead beach break and sand bottom points.
I also use it in head-high waves if it's crowded, otherwise I'm on a shortboard.

Conditions are often raw, choppy, sideshore windy, hollow, with strong currents and lots of paddling. Occasionally lined-up and firing.

I am 5'10 tall x 150 pounds. Average ability. 64 years old. Surf an average 10 to 12 times per month. Size 8 1/2 feet.
My quiver consists of variations of round pins from 6"6" to 10'0"

My objective with the 8'6" is to use it for the same conditions as the 9'2" - going shorter to increase manueverability, plus fit the curve of the wave better.

Predictable feel and "no surprises" when I spin around and take off are key for me.

What dimensions would you recommend for overall width, nose width and tail width and thickness for the new 8'6"?

I assume my friend and local gunsmith, using his CAD/CAM setup, can manage the proportions of the complex curves (template, rocker, rails, foil, etc.) as length is reduced.

Some dimensions for overall width, nose width, tail width and thickness would be a big help in keeping the design process on track.

Any suggestions and/or dimensions you can offer would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance

Laky

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laky's picture
Joined: 03/09/2015

Typo correction regarding tail width

Existing dimensions are: 9'2" long x 20 3/4" wide x 11 1/2" nose width x 11/2" tail width x 3.5" thick, quad fins

Should read

Existing dimensions are: 9'2" long x 20 3/4" wide x 11 1/2" nose width x 11 1/2" tail width x 3.5" thick, quad fins

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LBatBeach's picture
Joined: 02/28/2014

Great thread....

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swaylock's picture
Joined: 01/27/2009

One more hot seat rule: If you feel absolutely complelled to ask the guest about a specific shape you are working on, please keep it to ONE QUESTION.

Thank you!

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GregTate's picture
Joined: 03/18/2004

Good rule. 

Or maybe start a new thread. It would be best to focus your Hotseat questions on topics that many people prople can benefit from.  

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Personally I'm always ready to learn, although I do not always like being taught. - Winston Churchill

everysurfer's picture
Joined: 09/20/2008
Hi Bill, A question on bottom rocker. How do you set up the various curves? What I mean is the nose rocker usually curves the most. Then you have the middle and tail rockers. Which of the two has a greater curve? For both short boards and step ups. And then what percentage of the board has entry or nose rocker, what percentage has the body, and what percentage is the tail rocker. And if I'm not going on too much, could you give your thoughts on rail compared to stringer rockers. Thanks in advance!
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Billbarnfield's picture
Joined: 07/09/2005

everysurfer wrote:
Hi Bill, A question on bottom rocker. How do you set up the various curves? What I mean is the nose rocker usually curves the most. Then you have the middle and tail rockers. Which of the two has a greater curve? For both short boards and step ups. And then what percentage of the board has entry or nose rocker, what percentage has the body, and what percentage is the tail rocker. And if I'm not going on too much, could you give your thoughts on rail compared to stringer rockers. Thanks in advance!

Aloha everysurfer

Good question..... hard to answer.  The reason is, is that over the years, I have come to learn that I often see things quite differently then other people and I form ways of doing things differenlty because of it.  That said, I often get questions that are totally logical to ask but are phrased in ways that are hard for me to answer.  Usually it is because the questions contain deep attachments to certain ways of thinking and perceiving things that are very familiar to the asker.

I try to always see things different and to frame them up in my mind in ways that are designed to break up habits, beliefs and presumptions.  Since I am always beating myself up in these ways, it is often hard for me to reach in and express myself on a subject in a way that will be comfortable for the asker to hear.

I don't know how others view rockers.  But I can tell by the way you have phrased your question, that you have a way of viewing rockers and you feel like maybe a majority of others do likewise.  

I understand this view and don't disagree with it.  But personally, I don't really break down rockers in that way.   I don't design them so distinctively in 3 parts.  I look at the whole curve and the total rocker amounts.  All waves and riders require or desire certain kinds of rockers.  Matching them up correctly is the challenge.

If we have to think in 3 parts..... Of the overall curve, the most important part is the middle as it governs the boards ability to plane well and move through the water comfortably.  Without this the board will be an instant dog.  The nose and tail are adjusted as needed to match waves and riders.

I don't think in terms of percentages or formulas that can be described easily.  I view the flow, it is a more artistic approach.  It can be described in numbers and needs to be for replecation, but it is the visualization that is the core creative process.

There is so much more to say about this and I have some great examples to clarify the importance of each.  Maybe I can get back to each of these questions and further my comments to forthcoming questions or comments.

For now I have to run into Honolulu for errands and will post more tonight.

.

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Billbarnfield's picture
Joined: 07/09/2005

Sorry to everyone for being so out of touch the last few days.  Shaun's board is now done and will packed and taken to the airport in a few minutes.  When I get back in a few hours, I will be free to spend more time here and will answer questions more promptly and with better focus and time.

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L.I.T.'s picture
Joined: 10/08/2014

Hi Bill,

            First of all, thanks for doing this.

1. You've listed developing, and then watching others use your Measurement Control System as one of your greatest board-building accomplishments. But after a bit of Googling I can't turn up a full description of it. I've seen some descriptions (from others) of your rocker measurement at the stringer technique, but that's about it.

I'd really appreciate it if you could give us the full run-down on MCS as I believe it's still very relevant to backyarders these days; even though using software to get a pre-shape turned out on a machine has become fairly accessible nowadays for the DIY'er, if we come across a board we'd like to measure up, getting a board scanned or traced on a machine with a scribing tool is not as easy. Let alone trying to do it in the carpark after a surf and in the time it takes for the board's owner to go grab a coffee, drink it and come back again.

Mind you, if you've already described your system in full on Swaylocks and if anyone has a link to the thread it happened in, please post it so poor old Bill doesn't have to retype everything again.

2. You've managed to get out and play a lot over the course of your life (e.g. Surfing, MTB'ing, sailing, etc, etc), do you have any tips for others on how to accomplish this and still manage to keep the wife & kids happy(ish).

I asked Greg Loehr essentially the same thing while he was in the Hot Seat; his response was that getting out for a quick 30-minute surf most days (regardless of conditions) after work kept the surf-withdrawal symptoms in check.

But that just covers getting the minimum time in the water to deal with surf-withdrawal; most people want to get out and do as much as they possibly can (as it appears you've managed to do) and in as many different ways/sports/recreational past-times as they can. What tips have you got on how to accomplish that?

And y'know what, it'd be interesting to hear from Wendy on this topic too (a user-name like "Boss-o-Barnfield" might be the most accurate :) ) in order to hear their perspective on the matter, what they're willing to accept, or not, and most importantly, why. Sometimes the answers to that are surprising and allow you to figure out a way to accomplish what you were hoping to do and still manage to keep both parties happy (the key is you've got to ask in the first place).

On the other hand though, it might also be true that in some cases it would be better if the missus remained none-the-wiser as to some of the techniques you've figured out for playing with your various toys as much as possible; that info probably belongs in PM's to those interested, or perhaps posted in a "Secret Men's Business" forum (assuming Swaylocks has such a thing). I'll leave it up to you.

Cheers!

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Billbarnfield's picture
Joined: 07/09/2005

L.I.T. wrote:

Hi Bill,

            First of all, thanks for doing this.

1. You've listed developing, and then watching others use your Measurement Control System as one of your greatest board-building accomplishments. But after a bit of Googling I can't turn up a full description of it. I've seen some descriptions (from others) of your rocker measurement at the stringer technique, but that's about it.

I'd really appreciate it if you could give us the full run-down on MCS as I believe it's still very relevant to backyarders these days; even though using software to get a pre-shape turned out on a machine has become fairly accessible nowadays for the DIY'er, if we come across a board we'd like to measure up, getting a board scanned or traced on a machine with a scribing tool is not as easy. Let alone trying to do it in the carpark after a surf and in the time it takes for the board's owner to go grab a coffee, drink it and come back again.

Mind you, if you've already described your system in full on Swaylocks and if anyone has a link to the thread it happened in, please post it so poor old Bill doesn't have to retype everything again.

Cheers!

Aloha L.I.T

I will answer your questions in a few separate replies.  First some clarification and back story.  I have past training and experience as a machinist.  Everything in that world is machined to specific dimensions and tolerances.  So, quite naturally, it was fairly normal for me to see surfboards in similar ways.  Difficulte to do early on, due to hand and eye not being able to follow the blueprint that was in my head.  As that improved, and it does quickly using MCS, I was able to shape to tighter and tighter tolerances and do so faster and faster.

Powerful as this was, the reasons for doing so weren't really necessary yet, nor was the need as obvious as it was soon to be.  

Compared to today, design and shaping was more of a magic art and social endeavor.  It was mostly a lot of guessing and shooting in the dark until real improvement was stumbled upon or one came up with a good marketing line to get them off the hook.  Board dimensions were petty much limited to Length, Max Thickness and Template Widths.  These original measurements, though important, were severely limiting compared to the full number sets needed to describle a board and hopefully predict its function through the use of the Scientific Method.

 Have you ever noticed how certain things just can't happen until there is a complimentary convergence of several diverse factors.  And once the "Thing" happens, all kinds of new offshoots to that thing also happen.  GoPro is a classic example.  It couldn't exist successfully without there first being ..... The removal of Social constraints against Narcissisim and Voyerism.  YouTube and FaceBook being created.  Digital imaging.  Then Digital Video.  Digital Compression allowing HD Video..... Then.... BINGO...... GoPro!

Similarily several factors converged to make MCS necessary.  Not the least of which was Pro Surfing and the economics associated with it.  

The limited data set that was known and compiled to describe boards before MCS was inadequate to solve the emerging needs of Pro Surfers who needed better ways to guarantee their boards performance so as to payback the investments of their sponsors with more consistent finishes on the podium........ BINGO....... MCS!

I was always a big fan of science and of course, the Scientific Method.  For those not familiar with it, and as a contemporary shaper you must be....... You must.... Recognize a problem. Develop a Hypothesis as to why it exists.  Test your Hypothesis via experiments. Analyze the results.  Alter your Hypothesis if need be. Test again.  Analyze.  Alter Hypothesis. Test.  Analyze.  Continue until the results from your experiments and your Hypothesis form an accurate explaination for the Problem existing and strongly indicate or create a solution for the problem.

Without having a way to reasonably measure the complete board and the skills to shape accurately to detailed measurements.  There was really no way to truly test one Hypothesis against another.

More Later.........

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Billbarnfield's picture
Joined: 07/09/2005

L.I.T. wrote:

Hi Bill,

            First of all, thanks for doing this.

1. You've listed developing, and then watching others use your Measurement Control System as one of your greatest board-building accomplishments. But after a bit of Googling I can't turn up a full description of it. I've seen some descriptions (from others) of your rocker measurement at the stringer technique, but that's about it.

I'd really appreciate it if you could give us the full run-down on MCS as I believe it's still very relevant to backyarders these days; even though using software to get a pre-shape turned out on a machine has become fairly accessible nowadays for the DIY'er, if we come across a board we'd like to measure up, getting a board scanned or traced on a machine with a scribing tool is not as easy. Let alone trying to do it in the carpark after a surf and in the time it takes for the board's owner to go grab a coffee, drink it and come back again.

Mind you, if you've already described your system in full on Swaylocks and if anyone has a link to the thread it happened in, please post it so poor old Bill doesn't have to retype everything again.

SNIP

Cheers!

Aloha L.I.T.

I can't really cover all the MCS details in the space here.  But it isn't as mythical or complicated as you may be thinking it is.  Additionally, to make it work typically requires a deep change on a personal level  I will touch on this a bit first.

I don't know if Swaylockers read books much but I have a suggestion that should be required reading for anyone here.  It is written by Steven Pressfield of "The Legend of Bagger Vance" fame.  He has written many books but the one I am recomending is "The War of Art".  In it, he defines the things that trip up creative people and he describes some tools and techniques for overcoming them and opening the doors to success.

He is a writer, so replace his "writing" words with shaping words.  Here are quotes from the book.

"WHAT I KNOW"

"There's a secret that real shapers (writers) know that wannabe shapers (writers) don't, and the secret is this: It's not the shaping (writing) part that's hard.  What's hard is getting in the room to shape. (sitting down to write.)  What keeps us from shaping (sitting down) is Resistance.

"THE UNLIVED LIFE"

"Most of us have two lives.  The life we live, and the unlived life within us.  Between the two stands Resistance."

"RESISTANCE IS INVISIBLE"

"Resistance cannot be seen, touched, heard, or smelled.  But it can be felt.  We experience it as an energy field radiating from a work-in-potential.  It's a repelling force. It's negative.  Its aim is to shove us away, distract us, prevent us from doing our work."

"RESISTANCE IS INTERNAL"

"Resistance is not a peripheral opponent.  Resistance arises from within. It is self-generated and self-perpetuated.  Resistance is the enemy within.

Back to me talking....  Excellence in any endeavor requires confronting Resistance and kicking its ass!  I seems a common theme on Swaylocks that everyone wants to grow in their knowledge and skills, some even wanting to achieve big success in the surf industry. Or at least get chicks at parties!  Ha! I promise you that those who have persued success, know Resistance and know it well.  It stands boldly, right in the path you are trying to go down.

All the threads, post, tips, photos, graphics, etc on Swaylocks will not get us there unless we equip ourselves to recognize and overcome Resistance.....  We are the Resistance! 

This leads into your 2nd question about juggling lifestyle, marriage, family, busiess, etc.  I will address it in another post.

Regarding the details of MCS.  I should note here that some form of MCS is now so commonly used by everyone, that it seems to have always existed.  And since the media pretty much overlooked the whole thing, there is no real history of where it came from.  That said, being the guy now decades later, who is laying claim and discussing it, it feels well....... creepy.  Add to that the fact that Cad/Cam shaping, pretty much totally relies on an MCS process, only obscures it more.  My detaild brain (OCD) and being a machinist made this all familiar ground to me.  In 81, I went back to school in Computer Science so that I would be able to do the programing to create a then, unknown others, computerized shaping machine. I am confident that there would have been little acceptence of the machines without everyone first trying to use MCS and recognizing the immense difficulty in doing so.

There is no limit to the data points one can measure and log.  Especially now with scanners.  There is also no limit to the amount of boards and waves you can ride, to judge in real time action, the feel of the actual numbers logged.  

But the first part of this process is like homework and is not viewed as very fun.  Though the eventual results are!  The gap in time between the homework and the results is often too great to stimulate many to use the system.  This creates a great opportunity for those more motivated to replace those less inclined...... and history bears this out.  

But until you begin to see the results and are able to specifically act upon them, it is often more work then most will want to go to.  Yet without the homework there will be no real success.  So you have to decide if your in or if you are out.  There isn't much of a middle road in this.  Knowing for sure, requires testing your Hypothesis and then doing it again and again, until you have eliminated all other Hypothesis and only one has proved out.

Here is a measurement plan that can be easily achieved.  Template: Nose, Tail, Wide Point and location.  Thickness: At 12" nose and tail + tips, Max thickness and location.  Rocker: At minimum, measure at Nose tip, 6" & 12" back.  Tail tip, and 6" & 12" up.  Center: 12" on either side of center.  If you can measure in 6" increments the whole way, that is better.

Bottom Contours: Measure at Tips.  At 12" Nose & Tail.  24" Nose and Tail. 12" at either side of Center.  Note if covex or concave at the same points.

Rails are a huge challenge if you don't shape often enough to have a good muscle memory retention, of what you have made or felt in boards, then make templates at 12" from Nose & Tail and Wide Point.

Fins: Up from tail, in from rail, Toe in & Cant, Foil.  Trace fin Template.

Are you feeling RESISTANCE?? Don't worry it is just you and YOU are way stronger then you.  Kick some butt and move on with freedom and courage as Resistance (you) has no power over you.

Maybe I will post up my ©Order Form so you guys can see what I use to compile and log this information.

BB

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L.I.T.'s picture
Joined: 10/08/2014

Billbarnfield wrote:

.....

This leads into your 2nd question about juggling lifestyle, marriage, family, busiess, etc.  I will address it in another post.

......

Maybe I will post up my ©Order Form so you guys can see what I use to compile and log this information.

BB

Hi Bill,
        first of all, thanks for your replies so far to the questions I posed :)  :). They've all been ripper's and I'm really looking forward to seeing your reply to the one on my question about juggling lifestyle, marriage, family, busiess, etc.

Some of the aspects of your replies were not what I expected, and it's made them that much better, more interesting and more enjoyable.

I've been holding my tongue for the last couple of days to let you finish answering all the questions I posed rather than interrupting with a response or a comment on what you've posted so far, but your question at the end of your post above whether it would be worthwhile for you to post a copy of your order form prompted me jump in with this post; I'd love to see the order form and I think it would make sense to it to post it now (assuming you're willing to do so) as it would nicely finish off your reply to my question on MCS before you move on to the one about juggling lifestyle, marriage, family, business, etc. 'Up to you.

But, to reiterate what I said at the start of this post, thanks for the replies so far Bill, and am very much looking forward to what's yet to come.

Cheers!

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Billbarnfield's picture
Joined: 07/09/2005

L.I.T. wrote:

Billbarnfield wrote:

Maybe I will post up my ©Order Form so you guys can see what I use to compile and log this information.

BB

Hi Bill,
       SNIP     

 I'd love to see the order form and I think it would make sense to it to post it now (assuming you're willing to do so) 

But, to reiterate what I said at the start of this post, thanks for the replies so far Bill, and am very much looking forward to what's yet to come.

Cheers!

Please Note this is  ©Copyrighted Material.  Not sure why it wouldn't show in the body of the post

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L.I.T.'s picture
Joined: 10/08/2014

Thanks Bill! :)  :)

'Like the dove in the background/watermark.

One of the things I like about many of your answers in this thread is there's often a nugget of philosophy in it; am guessing there'll be a bit of that as you tackle the "how to manage surfing alongside family, business, life etc" question  -> looking forward to it!

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Billbarnfield's picture
Joined: 07/09/2005

I am pretty caught up now on deadline issues and will begin to work down the list of questions.  It probably won't be in chronological order as some will take pulling together info and images.  Others I can answer right off the top of my head.  So if it looks like I have overlooked a question or two.  Hang in there, I will get to them.

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L.I.T.'s picture
Joined: 10/08/2014

Billbarnfield wrote:

I am pretty caught up now on deadline issues and will begin to work down the list of questions....

....  Hang in there, I will get to them.

No worries Bill - you've got a business to run & we appreciate what time you're able to spend here.

Incidentally, after thinking about it for a couple of minutes I realised that trying to accomplish a full MCS measurement in a carpark over the space of 20 minutes is probably not too realistic - I recall reading somewhere (probably something you posted or an interview you gave) that just the rail-to-rail measurements alone occur every half-inch of the board.

That being said I'd still love to hear about the full MCS system anyway - even more so about the reasons behind the system. How you designed it. How (and why) you decided to measure one thing, but not another.  In your post above about the effect you had on Rusty, you mentioned the potential of what MCS can do; the measurements taken in MCS are just the beginning; being able to reproduce a board exactly is great (for a whole bunch of reasons), but what you do with those measurements is even more valuable; having a system you can apply to them that will teach you, that will help you learn what works, what doesn't, and why, so that you can quickly figure out how to get a board to work for any rider and/or any conditions, or figure out and understand a new board or concept from someone else, or perhaps something you've discovered or stumbled across yourself... now that is sexy.

Incidentally, I've been fooling around recently developing my own little measurement system; guess you could call it "CMS" (Carpark Measurement System) for rapidly measuring up a board in a carpark over the space of 20 minutes or so. Essentially, you place the board deck down on a flat surface/plank, trace a half-template for the rail outline, flip it onto it's rail with the stringer parallel to the surface/plank it's resting on, trace a deck and bottom rocker outline, then take measurements of the deck and bottom contours at several points along the length of the board (Wide Point plus several others according to what features are present on the deck and bottom), followed by fin position measurements.

What can I/should I be adding to this? -> I daresay though, the answer to my question about how you designed MCS as a system would tell me that :)

I'm afraid I'm off myself for a surf trip for the next couple of days so won't be able to see or respond to anything until then; 'looking forward to seeing what's happened here when I get back! This is turning into a really FUN and interesting thread :)

Cheers all!

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Huck's picture
Joined: 12/07/2009

Not sure how this ended up in the Hot Seat folder, but until it's over, it belongs in General Discussion, and Bill specifically requested such.  I want to honor that request, and hence I'm going to move this back to General Discussion.  Once Bill has taken off from the Hot Seat, the thread will be put in the Hot Seat folder, for future reference.

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artz's picture
Joined: 02/01/2007

Bill, I Know that you sent some time working with Rusty You also worked with a few other San Diego area shapers Like Bill Castor and Ed Wright.  Have any interesting stories about other San Diego area shapers you would like to share?

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According to Mikki Dora Malibu went to the Dogs in 1964. The Chumash Indians will tell you it was 1664.

greggriffin's picture
Joined: 05/09/2005

I am sure Bill has some Croteau stories :-)

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Billbarnfield's picture
Joined: 07/09/2005

artz wrote:

Bill, I Know that you sent some time working with Rusty You also worked with a few other San Diego area shapers Like Bill Castor and Ed Wright.  Have any interesting stories about other San Diego area shapers you would like to share?

Aloha artz

I never worked with Bill Castor directly, though he probably looked at the boards I had done for Chris.  I also never worked shaping with Ed Wright.  But his shop was a dealer for my boards for a few years, back when Michael WIllis shaped for him.  Since he had a factory, I would send the boards to him Hotcoated and they would finish them there.  Like with Castor, there was a lot of oportunity to examine my boards.  I hadn't seen Ed in decades but he popped into my store a while back and we had a good visit.

Michael Willis eventually moved to the North Shore maybe around 76 or 77 and later he did some ghost shaping on Japanese boards for me one summer, pre multi fins, pre Rusty.  Michael did really good on my boards.  He was a pretty good craftsman at the time and after teaching him Measurement Controlled Shaping, went on to become one of the North Shores more notable shapers.

I almost forgot, I did team boards for the G&S Team (McNulty etc).  Also spent a little time at their factory and with their shapers.  I can't remember their names now.  Some were more receptive then others.

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GregTate's picture
Joined: 03/18/2004

Huck, did we lose Bill's response to this question in the transfer?  It was classic.

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Personally I'm always ready to learn, although I do not always like being taught. - Winston Churchill

Huck's picture
Joined: 12/07/2009

Not sure what you're referring to?  No responses have been deleted by me, and responses don't self-delete when a thread is placed in a different folder.  You'll have to clarify.

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Billbarnfield's picture
Joined: 07/09/2005
 
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swaylock's picture
Joined: 01/27/2009

Bill, absolutely beautiful. 

Can you explain your thoughts on the little square tail on that design? Also, any chance we can see the foil of that board? 

Thanks for being on the HOT SEAT!!

Mike

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Billbarnfield's picture
Joined: 07/09/2005

swaylock wrote:

Bill, absolutely beautiful. 

Can you explain your thoughts on the little square tail on that design? Also, any chance we can see the foil of that board? 

Thanks for being on the HOT SEAT!!

Mike

Aloha Mike

Thanks for checking in!  The tail on the board is a small Squash.  No big revelations here.  In the single fin days, pintails and rounded pintails ruled at Pipe.  All in an effort to get the tail to sit down in the water a little deeper and keep the fin in the water so as to not spin out.  With the advent of tri fins, and a fin near the rail it was possible to ride boards with much wider tails that wouldn't spin out.  Wider tails plane better, accelerate better, and turn easier.  Most of Shauns boards that I made him at this time had Squash tails, therefore the decision to make his longer boards with similar but smaller and narrower tails is pretty simple really. I am always trying to create a strong sense of familiarity and consistency between boards in a quiver so that the rider will have little problem moving between boards quickly as wave and circumstances require.  

Most beginners and even many established shapers see every board as their moment to project their individual and innovative brilliance on the world of surfing and hopefully magazine fame!  While this can, of course, be a lot of fun and entertaining but it is pretty much useless in the process of learning to shape well or truly advancing design.  

It is always amazing to me how many shapers often with notable reputations have little in their resume's other then a few kooky designs that have never panned out, no longer exist or only did so for a very brief time.  Don't get me wrong here, it is good to push the limits to discover where they lay.  But our industry tends to glorify these odd designs and give them a life and validation, well beyond all levels of common sense or marketplace reality.  

My personal goal has generally been one of sifting through all the varied design ideas washing around in my mind, finding ones that make sense and then refining those to their limits.

Regarding the "foil" of the board, sadly, I had very litttle time to take pictures between its completion to its shipping and didn't take any specific foil imanges. But I will look through what I have and see if any images show the thickness flow and foil better.  I also shot HD video of the whole process but won't have time to edit it into anything for awhile.  But maybe among the hours of footage, there might be a frame grab that I can do which would show the profile.

Generally speaking the board has a well balanced profile with a slighlty beaky nose and slighlty forward thickness as Shaun tends to ride forward on his boards as you can see in the photo of him at Pipe.

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Billbarnfield's picture
Joined: 07/09/2005

swaylock wrote:

Bill, absolutely beautiful. 

Can you explain your thoughts on the little square tail on that design? Also, any chance we can see the foil of that board? 

Thanks for being on the HOT SEAT!!

Mike

This is the closest image I could find to a profile.

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peterg1's picture
Joined: 07/17/2006

That board definitely captures an era, makes me feel old.

Bill, you said earlier that the rear bottom had concave V, did you mean like spiral vee or inverted vee. Can you Describe the later and where you like to use it  in your shaping.

You always brought a ton of insight and info to Sways,

Mahalos for your generosity

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Billbarnfield's picture
Joined: 07/09/2005

peterg1 wrote:

That board definitely captures an era, makes me feel old.

Bill, you said earlier that the rear bottom had concave V, did you mean like spiral vee or inverted vee. Can you Describe the later and where you like to use it  in your shaping.

You always brought a ton of insight and info to Sways,

Mahalos for your generosity

Aloha peterg1

The big problem in discussing board design is language and how it confuses communications.  You may recall that both Inverted Vee and Spiral Vee have been discussed on Swaylocks before, often with much confusion and only marginal agreement as to what those terms really describe in the end.  So honestly and respectfully, I am not sure exactly what your question is. 

In my world...

Vee in an area of the boards bottom, is simply stated as, where the center of the board is higher then the rails.

This generally creates two Vee panels, one on each side of the stringer.

Concave Vee means that each of these panels is concaved.  That is, the center of the panel is lower then either side of the panel (as in the stringer or the rail) if the panel is adjusted to level.  There are also Domed Vee, Rolled Vee, Flat Vee, Spiral Vee, Inverted Vee, etc, etc.  Each, I am sure, is interpeted differently depending on the cultural language of the surf tribe it is being discussed within.

In my world, a very small and narcissistic tribe :-), neither of these above describe a Spiral Vee or Inverted Vee.  Can you (and only you please) describe what these are to you so I can better understand your question and what you are trying to visualize when I say Concave Vee.  And what you visualize when you say Inverted Vee.  Draw a picture if you like.  Then if I am using it, I can tell you where and why.

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McDing's picture
Joined: 05/22/2004

Good answer Bill.  Sick and tired of hearing people say they just learned to shape "V-Panels.  Or they are designing a board on AKU-Shape with "Spiral-V, inverted rocker and "double barrrel" bull shit out the Ass etc. etc. and yada, yada, yada.   Yeah and I just shaped a "double horse shit twat bottom.

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That which can be assorted without evidence was read in an illegal magazine.

Billbarnfield's picture
Joined: 07/09/2005

McDing wrote:

Good answer Bill.  Sick and tired of hearing people say they just learned to shape "V-Panels.  Or they are designing a board on AKU-Shape with "Spiral-V, inverted rocker and "double barrrel" bull shit out the Ass etc. etc. and yada, yada, yada.   Yeah and I just shaped a "double horse shit twat bottom.

I understand your frustration McDing.  But I don't want anyone to misunderstand my comments.  I am not attacking anyone and I am not "sick and tired" of anything or anyone.  

One of the big problems with forums is that the directlon and personality of a thread can quickly drift off into at new trend led by the most outspoken or dramatic comments of the new posters.  Before long, anyone in the thread is seen to be in agreement with the more extreme comments.  I don't want to be caught in that kind of situation and I want to make clear that I am not in agreement with it.  

Surfboard making is pretty much whatever anyone wants to make it.  I am not saying that is particularily a good idea.  I am just stating what it is.  There is no University of Surfboard Building.  There are no Trade Unions.  There are no Standards Organizations, like there are for Engineers, Architects, etc.  Everyone is pretty much winging it, like a bunch of grafitti artists painting trains and tunnels in England.  

Except there is a big difference in that the surfboard builders product is also a tangible, functional piece of "Engineered Art".  Not just "Art".  And because of this, there are certain consumer expectations for performance, durability, safety and precision.  Yet there is no governing body that oversees and demands this.  I am not suggesting here that there should be either.  I am just saying that the surfboard industry, like the underground drug industry is pretty much a buyer beware industry.

Everyone making boards, as they grow from begginer to a pro will eventually see how wacky the surfboard industry is.  And the more their incomes rely on it, the more frustrated they will get with the easy entry into the market by horribly unskilled and often unprofessional players who can all too easily take a chunk out of the "pros" paycheck.  At the same time the surfboard industry and consumers have embrased this business model wholeheartedly, especially since the shortboard revolution.

So where am I going with this.....  Like it or not, this is the industry we are stuck with and it isn't likely to change anytime soon.  In the huge pool of players there are all kinds.  And because of the easy entry, there is no filtering process to make sure that the most skilled and best trained are the most players.  In fact, it is probably more likely that most of the players are the least skilled with most having zero formal training.

There is then, little chance that there will be an accurate and shared vocabulary to describe design features.  Who would establish this anyway?  The surf magazines?  Ha!  Swaylocks..... Heck, we have rarely if ever achieved agreement on anything here.  Is there anyone in charge?  Nope!

You can't take anything too seriously.  You have to have a huge sense of humor about yourself and others.  You have to get comfortable trying to be precise in an industry that worships imprecision, newness, being different etc, even if it is stolen and not new, yet still requires great conformity to be cool and accepted.  You better be wearing a Trucker Hat..!  It is a wild ride, have fun and do the best you can and ignore the rest lest it drive you crazy!

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fins's picture
Joined: 07/13/2012

hello Bill !

  GREAT to have you on swaylocks !

  two questions ....

1. what do you think has been the greatest thing in surfing over the last say 45 years [since 1970] ?

  and ....

 2. what has been the thing you have most enjoyed , in your eras of shaping on the north shore ?

  cheers !

  ben  [previously chipfish61]

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*************************************************** http://www.benchipper.blogspot.com.au/

Billbarnfield's picture
Joined: 07/09/2005

fins wrote:

hello Bill !

  GREAT to have you on swaylocks !

  two questions ....

1. what do you think has been the greatest thing in surfing over the last say 45 years [since 1970] ?

  and ....

 2. what has been the thing you have most enjoyed , in your eras of shaping on the north shore ?

  cheers !

  ben  [previously chipfish61]

Aloha Ben

#1  As a surfboard designer/builder Multi Fins.  Even though they existed pre 70's.

     But...... if I was a media guy...... Digital Photography and Video!  And Drones!

#2  Surfing the waves here, in particular Pipeline, before it became too crowded.

Bill Pipe  Photo - Jeff Devine

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fins's picture
Joined: 07/13/2012

Billbarnfield wrote:

fins wrote:

hello Bill !

  GREAT to have you on swaylocks !

  two questions ....

1. what do you think has been the greatest thing in surfing over the last say 45 years [since 1970] ?

  and ....

 2. what has been the thing you have most enjoyed , in your eras of shaping on the north shore ?

  cheers !

  ben  [previously chipfish61]

Aloha Ben

#1  As a surfboard designer/builder Multi Fins.  Even though they existed pre 70's.

     But...... if I was a media guy...... Digital Photography and Video!  And Drones!

#2  Surfing the waves here, in particular Pipeline, before it became too crowded.

Bill Pipe  Photo - Jeff Devine

thanks very much Bill !

  great photo too by the way !

  cheers

  ben

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*************************************************** http://www.benchipper.blogspot.com.au/

McDing's picture
Joined: 05/22/2004

Can you explain to me what a "Spiral V" is.  One thing I do understand is the misuse of various terms to describe the same feature in a board. Hype etc.

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Billbarnfield's picture
Joined: 07/09/2005

McDing wrote:

Can you explain to me what a "Spiral V" is.  One thing I do understand is the misuse of various terms to describe the same feature in a board. Hype etc.

Maybe this?  I am not an expert on the subject and would love to find an "older timer" then me who really new the description in its original form.

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artz's picture
Joined: 02/01/2007

Bill Thanks for clearing up the rumors that you were shaping at Sunset in Encinitas.   Before the Willis Brothers moved to Hawaii I hd milton shape me a board turned out to be one of my all time favorite rides a simple round pin around 6'2' as I recall. You have said that surfboard design has changed a lot since the advent of short boards. In That time many design elements have come and gone.  As one of the better shapers in the last 40 years what elements that have gone out of fashion do you think need to be revisted?  One of the things I have noticed from watching some old lips of Lopez , Rory Russel and others surfing Pipeline is how early they get into waves. Now it seems everyone has to drop in right under the lip. Guess this is kind of a leading question on volum and foam distribution of todays Boards.

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According to Mikki Dora Malibu went to the Dogs in 1964. The Chumash Indians will tell you it was 1664.

Billbarnfield's picture
Joined: 07/09/2005

artz wrote:

Bill Thanks for clearing up the rumors that you were shaping at Sunset in Encinitas.   Before the Willis Brothers moved to Hawaii I hd milton shape me a board turned out to be one of my all time favorite rides a simple round pin around 6'2' as I recall.

You have said that surfboard design has changed a lot since the advent of short boards. In That time many design elements have come and gone.  As one of the better shapers in the last 40 years what elements that have gone out of fashion do you think need to be revisted?

I can't think of anything that "Needs to be revisited" really.  The current group of top shapers are amazingly talented guys with amazing tools and talents at their disposal.  Shaping machines in the right hands, can allow them to quickly shape every variation of a design feature while keeping all the other features unchanged.  This allows them to easily sift through all the variables one can think of to arrive at the best overall design and be fairly confident that they have got it right or are on the right track to get there.  In the hands of the right guy this is unstopable!

Sadly many using machines, are busy copying other peoples successful designs rather then being used as, scientific tools for controlled experimentation.

Surfboard design is at a highly matured state, such that there is only a very, very small likelyhood that anyone is going to create any kind of revolutionary designs that will overturn the status quo.  I am not saying it couldnt happen, it is just not very likely.  This is typical of many products in their life cycle.  Can anyone improve significantly on the iPod? Car Tires?  The Trumpet?  Eventually all products hit a certain level of maturity in their life cycle where they go a bit flat.  Not because they are bad, but because they are so darn good and well refined that there just isn't anything left to improve on.  Still you never know when someone might just stumble upon a unique combination of features that will launch a mini revolution.  Usually this is due to some external change that makes the "new thing" possible.  Wave pools might be just such a change.  Or if for some strange reason ocean water got thicker.  Or gravity changed.  Like finding oceans on Mars.........

artz wrote:

One of the things I have noticed from watching some old lips of Lopez , Rory Russel and others surfing Pipeline is how early they get into waves. Now it seems everyone has to drop in right under the lip. Guess this is kind of a leading question on volum and foam distribution of todays Boards.

There are several reasons for what you are observing, not the least of which is crowds and multi fins.

In the early 70's the average length of a Pipe gun was 7'6" to 8'6".  And thickness was between 2 3/4" to 3 1/4". Sunset boards were even bigger and thicker.  Crowds are a powerful driving force in directing changes.  In 71 I was riding a 7'6" x 18 1/2 and thinner.  By 74 it was 8'2" x 19 and thicker.  Shaun's famous pink gun was 8' if I remember right.  You have to be competively equipped to match the crowd your in and if they go longer you have to also or you can't get enough waves.

Once multi fins got sorted out, everything changed radically.  The fin on the inside rail meant it was near impossible to spin out or lose one's grip on the face of the wave.  Additionally, it meant we could ride wider & thicker tails, allowing narrower boards that were thinner forward and yet were much faster then single fins.  One could now outrun most any tube if it was clean enough.  And since most were following this trend down in board size, it meant that everyone could follow along as well without the normal punishment of not getting enough waves.

Backside surfing at Pipe has continued to evolve to the point that those guys can often take of as deep or deeper then the frontside guys.  Granted the grabbing rail, butt drag take off, to achieve this, is nearly a bodyboarder technique but it has been widely embrased and accepted so it is part of the whole process now.

While the crowds have gotten even worse, the improvements in board designs have allowed surfers to use ever smaller equipment that would not normally be crowd friendly at all.  On top of that, at places like Pipeline, the caliber of the surfers has risen so high that everyone out, is a world class surfer.  There is no room in the peak for anyone of lesser stature.  This is hugely important when trying to paddle through a blinding, offshore spray and into the latest take off of your life on one of the most dangerous waves in the world, while confidently knowing that your peers in the water aren't likely to do anything stupid that is going to kill you..!

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peterg1's picture
Joined: 07/17/2006

Thanks,  Bill the question was about THAT board in IT's bottom.I focused on it because its your current retro build which you posted and breifly/previously described as having "inverted" V in the rear. Just asking if it had spiral which is retro maybe a little earlier than that that era or angular  inverted V = /\, where it was placed, apex @ stringer? and if and where you use that configuration in your shaping.

I "think" I know V. Correct me if I'm wrong,

Both inverted  Vee and spiral have the element of concave associated/configured with them, the former typically flatter angular, the later radial with a lower centerline and  higher railline that eventually meets back up with the centerline/stringer in the very tail:, and both are completely, in orientation and configuration, opposite of flat, domed or rolled V ( unless you flank the with concaves)

AND moreover All are especially & completely  unrelated to the double horse shit twat @Mcdings been smoking.

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Billbarnfield's picture
Joined: 07/09/2005

peterg1 wrote:

Thanks,  Bill the question was about THAT board in IT's bottom.I focused on it because its your current retro build which you posted and breifly/previously described as having "inverted" V in the rear. Just asking if it had spiral which is retro maybe a little earlier than that that era or angular  inverted V = /\, where it was placed, apex @ stringer? and if and where you use that configuration in your shaping.

I "think" I know V. Correct me if I'm wrong,

Both inverted  Vee and spiral have the element of concave associated/configured with them, the former typically flatter angular, the later radial with a lower centerline and  higher railline that eventually meets back up with the centerline/stringer in the very tail:, and both are completely, in orientation and configuration, opposite of flat, domed or rolled V ( unless you flank the with concaves)

AND moreover All are especially & completely  unrelated to the double horse shit twat @Mcdings been smoking.

Aloha peterg1

I understand what board we are specifically talking about.  But I never used the term.... "inverted" V to describe the vee in the board. Nor would I.  I honestly don't know what an "Inverted Vee" is.  I am UNaware of whether or not any concave is required to create an Inverted Vee as you have stated.

Shaun's board doesn't have what I would define as Spiral Vee.  It is a Squash tail which eliminates the Spiral.  Additionally, Shauns board is flat behind the fin so the rail line doesn't have to spiral up to meet the stringer.  

In my world, the "Spiral" part of the Spiral Vee describes how on a round pintail the rail line is moving away from the center line.  As this difference grows toward the tail, the rail line has to evenutally rise back up to meet with the stringner at the tip of the tail.  Looking at the profile of the board, the rail line (sort of) spirals up radically at the tail of the board.  I am not asserting this to be true or agreed to by everyone in the industry.  It is just what I have always understood it to be going back a few decades.  I have included a graphic to show this, that I made a long time ago when this subject came up before.

Spiral Vee..? .jpg

Maximum Vee is front of the fins around 24" up from tail.  For the record, I don't use the term Apex when discussing board design as it has all kinds of inherent problems, not the least is that few understand it and where it actually lands on curves.  (see previous Swaylocks discussions on Apex) By maximum Vee I mean the greatest distance between the stringer and rail rockers.  It has nothing to do with what would or could be the Apex of either of those rockers.

I am still unclear of your question.  Are you using spiral to describe the vee from rail to rail or am I misunderstanding you.

BB

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McDing's picture
Joined: 05/22/2004

Well thanks for clearing that up "old timer" peeterG.   Makes perfect sense.  "Cuse me while I check the mail box for my Social Security check.  There's nothing wrong with being unable to answer an honest question.  But there is no need to circumvent, evade or otherwise BS ones way thru the question.  Easier to say "flock  I don't know".

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That which can be assorted without evidence was read in an illegal magazine.

Billbarnfield's picture
Joined: 07/09/2005

D

peterg1 wrote:

Thanks,  Bill the question was about THAT board in IT's bottom.I focused on it because its your current retro build which you posted and breifly/previously described as having "inverted" V in the rear. Just asking if it had spiral which is retro maybe a little earlier than that that era or angular  inverted V = /\, where it was placed, apex @ stringer? and if and where you use that configuration in your shaping.

I "think" I know V. Correct me if I'm wrong,

Both inverted  Vee and spiral have the element of concave associated/configured with them, the former typically flatter angular, the later radial with a lower centerline and  higher railline that eventually meets back up with the centerline/stringer in the very tail:, and both are completely, in orientation and configuration, opposite of flat, domed or rolled V ( unless you flank the with concaves)

AND moreover All are especially & completely  unrelated to the double horse shit twat @Mcdings been smoking.

Aloha peterg1

Did you notice the "Spiral Vee" thread Greg Griffen started in Discussions?  Presuming the info is accurate, Spiral Vee is a rail to rail feature, as I think you were suggesting.  I don't know if your perception of Spiral Vee matches what was stated or is the same as the drawings posted but it if is, then your question about whether or not I was using Spiral Vee in Shaun's board can now be answered in the negative.  I didn't use Spiral or Inverted Vee.  My "Concave Vee" is and pretty much always has been, a consistent shallow concave arc from rail to stringer.  I will try to remember the info in Greg's thread so I can respond more authoritively next time and not sound like such an uninformed ignoramous, regarding something that all cool shaper dudes are supposed to know.  :-) 

Now in the "Poking Fun At The Surf Industry" Department.  (not poking fun at you peterg1)

Sadly, I haven't invented a cool name to describle the shallow arc I use so we are just stuck with "Concave Vee" for now.   But just for fun, maybe I will think up a cool name for it and print up some logos, T-shirts  and Trucker Hats...!!  That way this Concave Vee thing, which is not my invention I am sure, can be attributed to me for ever and ever.

Seriously though peterg1, thanks for the discussion and time.

BB

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fins's picture
Joined: 07/13/2012

"You can't take anything too seriously.  You have to have a huge sense of humor about yourself and others.  You have to get comfortable trying to be precise in an industry that worships imprecision, newness, being different etc, even if it is stolen and not new, yet still requires great conformity to be cool and accepted.  You better be wearing a Trucker Hat..!  It is a wild ride, have fun and do the best you can and ignore the rest lest it drive you crazy ! "

.... THAT .... right there , to me ..... has to be some of the best , most sensible advice [ for life , as  well as "surfboard stuff "]  that I have ever read , in eleven years of being on this forum.

[ Common sense really , but , as the cliche says ..... the thing about 'common sense ' , is that it is not actually all that 'common ' ! ]

  THANKS !

    Ben

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*************************************************** http://www.benchipper.blogspot.com.au/

BarrySnyder's picture
Joined: 02/21/2009

fins wrote:

"You can't take anything too seriously.  You have to have a huge sense of humor about yourself and others.  You have to get comfortable trying to be precise in an industry that worships imprecision, newness, being different etc, even if it is stolen and not new, yet still requires great conformity to be cool and accepted.  You better be wearing a Trucker Hat..!  It is a wild ride, have fun and do the best you can and ignore the rest lest it drive you crazy ! "

.... THAT .... right there , to me ..... has to be some of the best , most sensible advice [ for life , as  well as "surfboard stuff "]  that I have ever read , in eleven years of being on this forum.

[ Common sense really , but , as the cliche says ..... the thing about 'common sense ' , is that it is not actually all that 'common ' ! ]

  THANKS !

    Ben

Glad you caught that too Ben.

Words to live by.

Thanks Bill for putting it all in perspective.

Respect.

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Barry Snyder

Surfboards made by hand. Not machine.

http://barrysnyderdesigns.com

Instagram @barrysnyderdesigns

johnmellor's picture
Joined: 03/17/2004

Hi Bill -

Some priceless stuff in this thread.  I had typed a question but common sense got the better of me and I have edited it out.  Thanks for sharing!

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Billbarnfield's picture
Joined: 07/09/2005

johnmellor wrote:

Hi Bill -

Some priceless stuff in this thread.  I had typed a question but common sense got the better of me and I have edited it out.  Thanks for sharing!

I saw it and worked on an answer.

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johnmellor's picture
Joined: 03/17/2004

Believe it or not I hadn't seen the previous posts you made regarding NOT using the term APEX!  I'm saving this one and hereby consider it to be the final word on the subject.  I will never refer to 'tail rocker apex' again.... HAHA

Thanks! (seriously)

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wavewhisperer's picture
Joined: 10/18/2012

...

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Billbarnfield's picture
Joined: 07/09/2005

wavewhisperer wrote:

...

What happened to your post?  I was going to answer but now it is gone....

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Billbarnfield's picture
Joined: 07/09/2005

So...... Spiral Vee.  Lets talk about this and then lets move on.

Greg Griffen's personal recolections are accurate as far as I know.  Additionally, the quotes he posted are also accurate, as far as I know.  And while I have said "I don't know" alot about these things, I probably know alot more then I was letting on that I did.

Greg is a tad older then I am and is the Older Guy who I was referring to that might post something about this subject.  He isn't the only guy who knows but is the one I figured might speak up on the subject.

I should post this on the "Spiral Vee" thread but I am just going to give this subject one more shot and then move one because there are many who have asked questions that I haven't gotten to on this Hot Seat thread and don't want to delay them any longer.

It is very important for everyone to understand here, especially the younger guys (say.... under 50 ha, ha) that unless you were there 48 years ago or so, you will never understand how amazing the shortboard revolution was.  I won't spend a bunch of time here trying to tell that story or make my point about how unique it was.  But..... IT WAS!  Just believe it.  One of the reasons for this was because something totally new was being created by a whole bunch of people all around the surfing world who had no idea where it was going to go in the end.  Most didn't even know each other.  Most weren't industry pros.  It was a very organic, grass roots happeining, in which there were no rules and no one in control.

No one really had a full grasp of what was happening nor was anyone really leading the charge.  Everything was happening super fast and change dominated, it was coming from all directions at once.  There were many different people in regional leaderships at moments, with a few making it into International leadership for brief times here and there. Every design developemnt of the time, had some point of origin and an originator or two.  Some got credit, some didn't.  Everthing was being coppied and shared at an amazing rate.  A specific design development might get a name that stuck, others didn't.  Within weeks, as a design circulated around the world, that name was being attributed to other designs that had nothing to do with the specifics of the original design.  In most cases, the specific design wasn't even around anymore after a few months!  But, the name often was and was kept circulating around and around by being attributed to all kinds of different versions of the original design and even sometimes, something completely different. 

There is really no way to compare what happened back then to how such a revolution would happen now with the Internet and all the traveling surfers and contests all over the world.  We all judge by our own standards and as such we all think we know, because we DO know within the scope of your true experience.  But we are limited in what we can be sure of, because we usually weren't there yet likely wish we would have been.  So we believe what we think we know about what happened because it makes us feel better, almost like we were actually there.  But in a time of tomultious change, like the late 60s, this is a horrible way to establish what the true facts or history were.

This is why I am often saying...... I don't know!  It doesn't mean I don't know what I am doing.  It likely just means I don't know what your talking about, though you think you do.

I was there for a lot of the stuff discussed here but I also recognize how transient and perishible most of what happened was.  So I don't like to lay claims to absolutes and don't feel I need to, to be a cool shaper dude.  I know what I saw and what I experienced.  And I am not worried about what I missed.  I also recognize that the revolutioin was so huge, that my own experience can only reflect a small slice of the world wide revolution that took place.

So lets summerize.  To the best of my knowledge, Original Spiral Vee has little to do with concaves.  In fact, it seems to me that these bottoms, rail to rail, were not even very flat but rather slightly convex at their flattest points.  Flats and convaves were added by others shortly after, including me but I never did or would call them Spiral or lay claim to any originality in this.

To the best of my knowledge, Spiral Vee with its original name and design was, as Greg has confirmed, a wide convex bottom in the forward center part of the board that slowly narrowed and tapered down to a narrow centered crown of Vee forward of the fin, lessening and flattening out toward the tail.  And also, lessening and flattening toward the rails. Remember, this was an evolution away from longboads that had very roundy bottoms.  This is hard to describe in words it is more so, a slice of a cone.

Nothing in this design really "spirals", it "Tapers".  But that is what it got called and is one of the main reasons everyone gets so confused.  Spirals, are by definition, completely different things.  But it was a cool sounding name and it stuck big time!  This is a perfect example of the name absorbing all the memories and emotions of the era while not describing the design very well at all.  

Because of this, people wanting to be players in the tribe, attach deeply to these "named" things even though they only actually existed for a few months before morphing into all kinds of variations to the point where decades later everyone is arguing over the precise design and use of the term.  As noted, not long after, some were calling Convave Vees, Spiral Vees.  The little graphic I posted was another version of what some called a Spiral Vee and why.

There is nothing magic contained in the name, such that you can shape what you think is a "Spiral Vee" into your board and it will then inherit some deep and powerful magic from the late 60's which will hurtle your design into the stratosphere and bring you immense fame.  The design had some relevence back then no doubt, but like most things of the time.... little of it, if anything, still exists in a form that can rightfully own the original title, let alone, bring special magic to your designs like Frodo's magic ring!  The only magic left...... is solely in the minds of those who toss around the name and those who are impressed with them doing it.

As I have said many times...... That is a lot of what surfing and making boards is actually about, so if it rings your bells, enjoy your use of the term and impressing other with it.  It is all good!

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Zourite's picture
Joined: 09/07/2014

This great and reverent synthesis could be the soulmate of Huck's advice about the shaping process:

Just build what you like and have fun. Surfing is about having fun.

Theories and concepts are great tools, but hard to understand for shaping noobs.

Experience rules, but we don't have the will to wait and learn anymore...

Let's get back to the foam and try to get something enjoyable from it !

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