1. You've listed developing, and then watching others use your Measurement Control System as one of your greatest board-building accomplishments. But after a bit of Googling I can't turn up a full description of it. I've seen some descriptions (from others) of your rocker measurement at the stringer technique, but that's about it.
I'd really appreciate it if you could give us the full run-down on MCS as I believe it's still very relevant to backyarders these days; even though using software to get a pre-shape turned out on a machine has become fairly accessible nowadays for the DIY'er, if we come across a board we'd like to measure up, getting a board scanned or traced on a machine with a scribing tool is not as easy. Let alone trying to do it in the carpark after a surf and in the time it takes for the board's owner to go grab a coffee, drink it and come back again.
Mind you, if you've already described your system in full on Swaylocks and if anyone has a link to the thread it happened in, please post it so poor old Bill doesn't have to retype everything again.
SNIP
Cheers!
Aloha L.I.T.
I can't really cover all the MCS details in the space here. But it isn't as mythical or complicated as you may be thinking it is. Additionally, to make it work typically requires a deep change on a personal level I will touch on this a bit first.
I don't know if Swaylockers read books much but I have a suggestion that should be required reading for anyone here. It is written by Steven Pressfield of "The Legend of Bagger Vance" fame. He has written many books but the one I am recomending is "The War of Art". In it, he defines the things that trip up creative people and he describes some tools and techniques for overcoming them and opening the doors to success.
He is a writer, so replace his "writing" words with shaping words. Here are quotes from the book.
"WHAT I KNOW"
"There's a secret that real shapers (writers) know that wannabe shapers (writers) don't, and the secret is this: It's not the shaping (writing) part that's hard. What's hard is getting in the room to shape. (sitting down to write.) What keeps us from shaping (sitting down) is Resistance.
"THE UNLIVED LIFE"
"Most of us have two lives. The life we live, and the unlived life within us. Between the two stands Resistance."
"RESISTANCE IS INVISIBLE"
"Resistance cannot be seen, touched, heard, or smelled. But it can be felt. We experience it as an energy field radiating from a work-in-potential. It's a repelling force. It's negative. Its aim is to shove us away, distract us, prevent us from doing our work."
"RESISTANCE IS INTERNAL"
"Resistance is not a peripheral opponent. Resistance arises from within. It is self-generated and self-perpetuated. Resistance is the enemy within.
Back to me talking.... Excellence in any endeavor requires confronting Resistance and kicking its ass! I seems a common theme on Swaylocks that everyone wants to grow in their knowledge and skills, some even wanting to achieve big success in the surf industry. Or at least get chicks at parties! Ha! I promise you that those who have persued success, know Resistance and know it well. It stands boldly, right in the path you are trying to go down.
All the threads, post, tips, photos, graphics, etc on Swaylocks will not get us there unless we equip ourselves to recognize and overcome Resistance..... We are the Resistance!
This leads into your 2nd question about juggling lifestyle, marriage, family, busiess, etc. I will address it in another post.
Regarding the details of MCS. I should note here that some form of MCS is now so commonly used by everyone, that it seems to have always existed. And since the media pretty much overlooked the whole thing, there is no real history of where it came from. That said, being the guy now decades later, who is laying claim and discussing it, it feels well....... creepy. Add to that the fact that Cad/Cam shaping, pretty much totally relies on an MCS process, only obscures it more. My detaild brain (OCD) and being a machinist made this all familiar ground to me. In 81, I went back to school in Computer Science so that I would be able to do the programing to create a then, unknown others, computerized shaping machine. I am confident that there would have been little acceptence of the machines without everyone first trying to use MCS and recognizing the immense difficulty in doing so.
There is no limit to the data points one can measure and log. Especially now with scanners. There is also no limit to the amount of boards and waves you can ride, to judge in real time action, the feel of the actual numbers logged.
But the first part of this process is like homework and is not viewed as very fun. Though the eventual results are! The gap in time between the homework and the results is often too great to stimulate many to use the system. This creates a great opportunity for those more motivated to replace those less inclined...... and history bears this out.
But until you begin to see the results and are able to specifically act upon them, it is often more work then most will want to go to. Yet without the homework there will be no real success. So you have to decide if your in or if you are out. There isn't much of a middle road in this. Knowing for sure, requires testing your Hypothesis and then doing it again and again, until you have eliminated all other Hypothesis and only one has proved out.
Here is a measurement plan that can be easily achieved. Template: Nose, Tail, Wide Point and location. Thickness: At 12" nose and tail + tips, Max thickness and location. Rocker: At minimum, measure at Nose tip, 6" & 12" back. Tail tip, and 6" & 12" up. Center: 12" on either side of center. If you can measure in 6" increments the whole way, that is better.
Bottom Contours: Measure at Tips. At 12" Nose & Tail. 24" Nose and Tail. 12" at either side of Center. Note if covex or concave at the same points.
Rails are a huge challenge if you don't shape often enough to have a good muscle memory retention, of what you have made or felt in boards, then make templates at 12" from Nose & Tail and Wide Point.
Fins: Up from tail, in from rail, Toe in & Cant, Foil. Trace fin Template.
Are you feeling RESISTANCE?? Don't worry it is just you and YOU are way stronger then you. Kick some butt and move on with freedom and courage as Resistance (you) has no power over you.
Hi Bill,
first of all, thanks for your replies so far to the questions I posed :) :). They've all been ripper's and I'm really looking forward to seeing your reply to the one on my question about juggling lifestyle, marriage, family, busiess, etc.
Some of the aspects of your replies were not what I expected, and it's made them that much better, more interesting and more enjoyable.
I've been holding my tongue for the last couple of days to let you finish answering all the questions I posed rather than interrupting with a response or a comment on what you've posted so far, but your question at the end of your post above whether it would be worthwhile for you to post a copy of your order form prompted me jump in with this post; I'd love to see the order form and I think it would make sense to it to post it now (assuming you're willing to do so) as it would nicely finish off your reply to my question on MCS before you move on to the one about juggling lifestyle, marriage, family, business, etc. 'Up to you.
But, to reiterate what I said at the start of this post, thanks for the replies so far Bill, and am very much looking forward to what's yet to come.
One of the things I like about many of your answers in this thread is there's often a nugget of philosophy in it; am guessing there'll be a bit of that as you tackle the "how to manage surfing alongside family, business, life etc" question -> looking forward to it!
I am pretty caught up now on deadline issues and will begin to work down the list of questions. It probably won't be in chronological order as some will take pulling together info and images. Others I can answer right off the top of my head. So if it looks like I have overlooked a question or two. Hang in there, I will get to them.
I am pretty caught up now on deadline issues and will begin to work down the list of questions....
.... Hang in there, I will get to them.
No worries Bill - you've got a business to run & we appreciate what time you're able to spend here.
Incidentally, after thinking about it for a couple of minutes I realised that trying to accomplish a full MCS measurement in a carpark over the space of 20 minutes is probably not too realistic - I recall reading somewhere (probably something you posted or an interview you gave) that just the rail-to-rail measurements alone occur every half-inch of the board.
That being said I'd still love to hear about the full MCS system anyway - even more so about the reasons behind the system. How you designed it. How (and why) you decided to measure one thing, but not another. In your post above about the effect you had on Rusty, you mentioned the potential of what MCS can do; the measurements taken in MCS are just the beginning; being able to reproduce a board exactly is great (for a whole bunch of reasons), but what you do with those measurements is even more valuable; having a system you can apply to them that will teach you, that will help you learn what works, what doesn't, and why, so that you can quickly figure out how to get a board to work for any rider and/or any conditions, or figure out and understand a new board or concept from someone else, or perhaps something you've discovered or stumbled across yourself... now that is sexy.
Incidentally, I've been fooling around recently developing my own little measurement system; guess you could call it "CMS" (Carpark Measurement System) for rapidly measuring up a board in a carpark over the space of 20 minutes or so. Essentially, you place the board deck down on a flat surface/plank, trace a half-template for the rail outline, flip it onto it's rail with the stringer parallel to the surface/plank it's resting on, trace a deck and bottom rocker outline, then take measurements of the deck and bottom contours at several points along the length of the board (Wide Point plus several others according to what features are present on the deck and bottom), followed by fin position measurements.
What can I/should I be adding to this? -> I daresay though, the answer to my question about how you designed MCS as a system would tell me that :)
I'm afraid I'm off myself for a surf trip for the next couple of days so won't be able to see or respond to anything until then; 'looking forward to seeing what's happened here when I get back! This is turning into a really FUN and interesting thread :)
Not sure how this ended up in the Hot Seat folder, but until it's over, it belongs in General Discussion, and Bill specifically requested such. I want to honor that request, and hence I'm going to move this back to General Discussion. Once Bill has taken off from the Hot Seat, the thread will be put in the Hot Seat folder, for future reference.
Bill, I Know that you sent some time working with Rusty You also worked with a few other San Diego area shapers Like Bill Castor and Ed Wright. Have any interesting stories about other San Diego area shapers you would like to share?
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According to Mikki Dora Malibu went to the Dogs in 1964. The Chumash Indians will tell you it was 1664.
Bill, I Know that you sent some time working with Rusty You also worked with a few other San Diego area shapers Like Bill Castor and Ed Wright. Have any interesting stories about other San Diego area shapers you would like to share?
Aloha artz
I never worked with Bill Castor directly, though he probably looked at the boards I had done for Chris. I also never worked shaping with Ed Wright. But his shop was a dealer for my boards for a few years, back when Michael WIllis shaped for him. Since he had a factory, I would send the boards to him Hotcoated and they would finish them there. Like with Castor, there was a lot of oportunity to examine my boards. I hadn't seen Ed in decades but he popped into my store a while back and we had a good visit.
Michael Willis eventually moved to the North Shore maybe around 76 or 77 and later he did some ghost shaping on Japanese boards for me one summer, pre multi fins, pre Rusty. Michael did really good on my boards. He was a pretty good craftsman at the time and after teaching him Measurement Controlled Shaping, went on to become one of the North Shores more notable shapers.
I almost forgot, I did team boards for the G&S Team (McNulty etc). Also spent a little time at their factory and with their shapers. I can't remember their names now. Some were more receptive then others.
Aloha L.I.T.
I can't really cover all the MCS details in the space here. But it isn't as mythical or complicated as you may be thinking it is. Additionally, to make it work typically requires a deep change on a personal level I will touch on this a bit first.
I don't know if Swaylockers read books much but I have a suggestion that should be required reading for anyone here. It is written by Steven Pressfield of "The Legend of Bagger Vance" fame. He has written many books but the one I am recomending is "The War of Art". In it, he defines the things that trip up creative people and he describes some tools and techniques for overcoming them and opening the doors to success.
He is a writer, so replace his "writing" words with shaping words. Here are quotes from the book.
"WHAT I KNOW"
"There's a secret that real shapers (writers) know that wannabe shapers (writers) don't, and the secret is this: It's not the shaping (writing) part that's hard. What's hard is getting in the room to shape. (sitting down to write.) What keeps us from shaping (sitting down) is Resistance.
"THE UNLIVED LIFE"
"Most of us have two lives. The life we live, and the unlived life within us. Between the two stands Resistance."
"RESISTANCE IS INVISIBLE"
"Resistance cannot be seen, touched, heard, or smelled. But it can be felt. We experience it as an energy field radiating from a work-in-potential. It's a repelling force. It's negative. Its aim is to shove us away, distract us, prevent us from doing our work."
"RESISTANCE IS INTERNAL"
"Resistance is not a peripheral opponent. Resistance arises from within. It is self-generated and self-perpetuated. Resistance is the enemy within.
Back to me talking.... Excellence in any endeavor requires confronting Resistance and kicking its ass! I seems a common theme on Swaylocks that everyone wants to grow in their knowledge and skills, some even wanting to achieve big success in the surf industry. Or at least get chicks at parties! Ha! I promise you that those who have persued success, know Resistance and know it well. It stands boldly, right in the path you are trying to go down.
All the threads, post, tips, photos, graphics, etc on Swaylocks will not get us there unless we equip ourselves to recognize and overcome Resistance..... We are the Resistance!
This leads into your 2nd question about juggling lifestyle, marriage, family, busiess, etc. I will address it in another post.
Regarding the details of MCS. I should note here that some form of MCS is now so commonly used by everyone, that it seems to have always existed. And since the media pretty much overlooked the whole thing, there is no real history of where it came from. That said, being the guy now decades later, who is laying claim and discussing it, it feels well....... creepy. Add to that the fact that Cad/Cam shaping, pretty much totally relies on an MCS process, only obscures it more. My detaild brain (OCD) and being a machinist made this all familiar ground to me. In 81, I went back to school in Computer Science so that I would be able to do the programing to create a then, unknown others, computerized shaping machine. I am confident that there would have been little acceptence of the machines without everyone first trying to use MCS and recognizing the immense difficulty in doing so.
There is no limit to the data points one can measure and log. Especially now with scanners. There is also no limit to the amount of boards and waves you can ride, to judge in real time action, the feel of the actual numbers logged.
But the first part of this process is like homework and is not viewed as very fun. Though the eventual results are! The gap in time between the homework and the results is often too great to stimulate many to use the system. This creates a great opportunity for those more motivated to replace those less inclined...... and history bears this out.
But until you begin to see the results and are able to specifically act upon them, it is often more work then most will want to go to. Yet without the homework there will be no real success. So you have to decide if your in or if you are out. There isn't much of a middle road in this. Knowing for sure, requires testing your Hypothesis and then doing it again and again, until you have eliminated all other Hypothesis and only one has proved out.
Here is a measurement plan that can be easily achieved. Template: Nose, Tail, Wide Point and location. Thickness: At 12" nose and tail + tips, Max thickness and location. Rocker: At minimum, measure at Nose tip, 6" & 12" back. Tail tip, and 6" & 12" up. Center: 12" on either side of center. If you can measure in 6" increments the whole way, that is better.
Bottom Contours: Measure at Tips. At 12" Nose & Tail. 24" Nose and Tail. 12" at either side of Center. Note if covex or concave at the same points.
Rails are a huge challenge if you don't shape often enough to have a good muscle memory retention, of what you have made or felt in boards, then make templates at 12" from Nose & Tail and Wide Point.
Fins: Up from tail, in from rail, Toe in & Cant, Foil. Trace fin Template.
Are you feeling RESISTANCE?? Don't worry it is just you and YOU are way stronger then you. Kick some butt and move on with freedom and courage as Resistance (you) has no power over you.
Maybe I will post up my ©Order Form so you guys can see what I use to compile and log this information.
BB
Hi Bill,
first of all, thanks for your replies so far to the questions I posed :) :). They've all been ripper's and I'm really looking forward to seeing your reply to the one on my question about juggling lifestyle, marriage, family, busiess, etc.
Some of the aspects of your replies were not what I expected, and it's made them that much better, more interesting and more enjoyable.
I've been holding my tongue for the last couple of days to let you finish answering all the questions I posed rather than interrupting with a response or a comment on what you've posted so far, but your question at the end of your post above whether it would be worthwhile for you to post a copy of your order form prompted me jump in with this post; I'd love to see the order form and I think it would make sense to it to post it now (assuming you're willing to do so) as it would nicely finish off your reply to my question on MCS before you move on to the one about juggling lifestyle, marriage, family, business, etc. 'Up to you.
But, to reiterate what I said at the start of this post, thanks for the replies so far Bill, and am very much looking forward to what's yet to come.
Cheers!
Please Note this is ©Copyrighted Material. Not sure why it wouldn't show in the body of the post
BP Order Form 2015 Short Board Dove.pdf
Thanks Bill! :) :)
'Like the dove in the background/watermark.
One of the things I like about many of your answers in this thread is there's often a nugget of philosophy in it; am guessing there'll be a bit of that as you tackle the "how to manage surfing alongside family, business, life etc" question -> looking forward to it!
I am pretty caught up now on deadline issues and will begin to work down the list of questions. It probably won't be in chronological order as some will take pulling together info and images. Others I can answer right off the top of my head. So if it looks like I have overlooked a question or two. Hang in there, I will get to them.
No worries Bill - you've got a business to run & we appreciate what time you're able to spend here.
Incidentally, after thinking about it for a couple of minutes I realised that trying to accomplish a full MCS measurement in a carpark over the space of 20 minutes is probably not too realistic - I recall reading somewhere (probably something you posted or an interview you gave) that just the rail-to-rail measurements alone occur every half-inch of the board.
That being said I'd still love to hear about the full MCS system anyway - even more so about the reasons behind the system. How you designed it. How (and why) you decided to measure one thing, but not another. In your post above about the effect you had on Rusty, you mentioned the potential of what MCS can do; the measurements taken in MCS are just the beginning; being able to reproduce a board exactly is great (for a whole bunch of reasons), but what you do with those measurements is even more valuable; having a system you can apply to them that will teach you, that will help you learn what works, what doesn't, and why, so that you can quickly figure out how to get a board to work for any rider and/or any conditions, or figure out and understand a new board or concept from someone else, or perhaps something you've discovered or stumbled across yourself... now that is sexy.
Incidentally, I've been fooling around recently developing my own little measurement system; guess you could call it "CMS" (Carpark Measurement System) for rapidly measuring up a board in a carpark over the space of 20 minutes or so. Essentially, you place the board deck down on a flat surface/plank, trace a half-template for the rail outline, flip it onto it's rail with the stringer parallel to the surface/plank it's resting on, trace a deck and bottom rocker outline, then take measurements of the deck and bottom contours at several points along the length of the board (Wide Point plus several others according to what features are present on the deck and bottom), followed by fin position measurements.
What can I/should I be adding to this? -> I daresay though, the answer to my question about how you designed MCS as a system would tell me that :)
I'm afraid I'm off myself for a surf trip for the next couple of days so won't be able to see or respond to anything until then; 'looking forward to seeing what's happened here when I get back! This is turning into a really FUN and interesting thread :)
Cheers all!
Not sure how this ended up in the Hot Seat folder, but until it's over, it belongs in General Discussion, and Bill specifically requested such. I want to honor that request, and hence I'm going to move this back to General Discussion. Once Bill has taken off from the Hot Seat, the thread will be put in the Hot Seat folder, for future reference.
Bill, I Know that you sent some time working with Rusty You also worked with a few other San Diego area shapers Like Bill Castor and Ed Wright. Have any interesting stories about other San Diego area shapers you would like to share?
According to Mikki Dora Malibu went to the Dogs in 1964. The Chumash Indians will tell you it was 1664.
I am sure Bill has some Croteau stories :-)
Aloha artz
I never worked with Bill Castor directly, though he probably looked at the boards I had done for Chris. I also never worked shaping with Ed Wright. But his shop was a dealer for my boards for a few years, back when Michael WIllis shaped for him. Since he had a factory, I would send the boards to him Hotcoated and they would finish them there. Like with Castor, there was a lot of oportunity to examine my boards. I hadn't seen Ed in decades but he popped into my store a while back and we had a good visit.
Michael Willis eventually moved to the North Shore maybe around 76 or 77 and later he did some ghost shaping on Japanese boards for me one summer, pre multi fins, pre Rusty. Michael did really good on my boards. He was a pretty good craftsman at the time and after teaching him Measurement Controlled Shaping, went on to become one of the North Shores more notable shapers.
I almost forgot, I did team boards for the G&S Team (McNulty etc). Also spent a little time at their factory and with their shapers. I can't remember their names now. Some were more receptive then others.
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