Not sure what you're referring to? No responses have been deleted by me, and responses don't self-delete when a thread is placed in a different folder. You'll have to clarify.
Can you explain your thoughts on the little square tail on that design? Also, any chance we can see the foil of that board?
Thanks for being on the HOT SEAT!!
Mike
Aloha Mike
Thanks for checking in! The tail on the board is a small Squash. No big revelations here. In the single fin days, pintails and rounded pintails ruled at Pipe. All in an effort to get the tail to sit down in the water a little deeper and keep the fin in the water so as to not spin out. With the advent of tri fins, and a fin near the rail it was possible to ride boards with much wider tails that wouldn't spin out. Wider tails plane better, accelerate better, and turn easier. Most of Shauns boards that I made him at this time had Squash tails, therefore the decision to make his longer boards with similar but smaller and narrower tails is pretty simple really. I am always trying to create a strong sense of familiarity and consistency between boards in a quiver so that the rider will have little problem moving between boards quickly as wave and circumstances require.
Most beginners and even many established shapers see every board as their moment to project their individual and innovative brilliance on the world of surfing and hopefully magazine fame! While this can, of course, be a lot of fun and entertaining but it is pretty much useless in the process of learning to shape well or truly advancing design.
It is always amazing to me how many shapers often with notable reputations have little in their resume's other then a few kooky designs that have never panned out, no longer exist or only did so for a very brief time. Don't get me wrong here, it is good to push the limits to discover where they lay. But our industry tends to glorify these odd designs and give them a life and validation, well beyond all levels of common sense or marketplace reality.
My personal goal has generally been one of sifting through all the varied design ideas washing around in my mind, finding ones that make sense and then refining those to their limits.
Regarding the "foil" of the board, sadly, I had very litttle time to take pictures between its completion to its shipping and didn't take any specific foil imanges. But I will look through what I have and see if any images show the thickness flow and foil better. I also shot HD video of the whole process but won't have time to edit it into anything for awhile. But maybe among the hours of footage, there might be a frame grab that I can do which would show the profile.
Generally speaking the board has a well balanced profile with a slighlty beaky nose and slighlty forward thickness as Shaun tends to ride forward on his boards as you can see in the photo of him at Pipe.
That board definitely captures an era, makes me feel old.
Bill, you said earlier that the rear bottom had concave V, did you mean like spiral vee or inverted vee. Can you Describe the later and where you like to use it in your shaping.
You always brought a ton of insight and info to Sways,
That board definitely captures an era, makes me feel old.
Bill, you said earlier that the rear bottom had concave V, did you mean like spiral vee or inverted vee. Can you Describe the later and where you like to use it in your shaping.
You always brought a ton of insight and info to Sways,
Mahalos for your generosity
Aloha peterg1
The big problem in discussing board design is language and how it confuses communications. You may recall that both Inverted Vee and Spiral Vee have been discussed on Swaylocks before, often with much confusion and only marginal agreement as to what those terms really describe in the end. So honestly and respectfully, I am not sure exactly what your question is.
In my world...
Vee in an area of the boards bottom, is simply stated as, where the center of the board is higher then the rails.
This generally creates two Vee panels, one on each side of the stringer.
Concave Vee means that each of these panels is concaved. That is, the center of the panel is lower then either side of the panel (as in the stringer or the rail) if the panel is adjusted to level. There are also Domed Vee, Rolled Vee, Flat Vee, Spiral Vee, Inverted Vee, etc, etc. Each, I am sure, is interpeted differently depending on the cultural language of the surf tribe it is being discussed within.
In my world, a very small and narcissistic tribe :-), neither of these above describe a Spiral Vee or Inverted Vee. Can you (and only you please) describe what these are to you so I can better understand your question and what you are trying to visualize when I say Concave Vee. And what you visualize when you say Inverted Vee. Draw a picture if you like. Then if I am using it, I can tell you where and why.
Good answer Bill. Sick and tired of hearing people say they just learned to shape "V-Panels. Or they are designing a board on AKU-Shape with "Spiral-V, inverted rocker and "double barrrel" bull shit out the Ass etc. etc. and yada, yada, yada. Yeah and I just shaped a "double horse shit twat bottom.
Good answer Bill. Sick and tired of hearing people say they just learned to shape "V-Panels. Or they are designing a board on AKU-Shape with "Spiral-V, inverted rocker and "double barrrel" bull shit out the Ass etc. etc. and yada, yada, yada. Yeah and I just shaped a "double horse shit twat bottom.
I understand your frustration McDing. But I don't want anyone to misunderstand my comments. I am not attacking anyone and I am not "sick and tired" of anything or anyone.
One of the big problems with forums is that the directlon and personality of a thread can quickly drift off into at new trend led by the most outspoken or dramatic comments of the new posters. Before long, anyone in the thread is seen to be in agreement with the more extreme comments. I don't want to be caught in that kind of situation and I want to make clear that I am not in agreement with it.
Surfboard making is pretty much whatever anyone wants to make it. I am not saying that is particularily a good idea. I am just stating what it is. There is no University of Surfboard Building. There are no Trade Unions. There are no Standards Organizations, like there are for Engineers, Architects, etc. Everyone is pretty much winging it, like a bunch of grafitti artists painting trains and tunnels in England.
Except there is a big difference in that the surfboard builders product is also a tangible, functional piece of "Engineered Art". Not just "Art". And because of this, there are certain consumer expectations for performance, durability, safety and precision. Yet there is no governing body that oversees and demands this. I am not suggesting here that there should be either. I am just saying that the surfboard industry, like the underground drug industry is pretty much a buyer beware industry.
Everyone making boards, as they grow from begginer to a pro will eventually see how wacky the surfboard industry is. And the more their incomes rely on it, the more frustrated they will get with the easy entry into the market by horribly unskilled and often unprofessional players who can all too easily take a chunk out of the "pros" paycheck. At the same time the surfboard industry and consumers have embrased this business model wholeheartedly, especially since the shortboard revolution.
So where am I going with this..... Like it or not, this is the industry we are stuck with and it isn't likely to change anytime soon. In the huge pool of players there are all kinds. And because of the easy entry, there is no filtering process to make sure that the most skilled and best trained are the most players. In fact, it is probably more likely that most of the players are the least skilled with most having zero formal training.
There is then, little chance that there will be an accurate and shared vocabulary to describe design features. Who would establish this anyway? The surf magazines? Ha! Swaylocks..... Heck, we have rarely if ever achieved agreement on anything here. Is there anyone in charge? Nope!
You can't take anything too seriously. You have to have a huge sense of humor about yourself and others. You have to get comfortable trying to be precise in an industry that worships imprecision, newness, being different etc, even if it is stolen and not new, yet still requires great conformity to be cool and accepted. You better be wearing a Trucker Hat..! It is a wild ride, have fun and do the best you can and ignore the rest lest it drive you crazy!
Huck, did we lose Bill's response to this question in the transfer? It was classic.
Personally I'm always ready to learn, although I do not always like being taught. - Winston Churchill
Not sure what you're referring to? No responses have been deleted by me, and responses don't self-delete when a thread is placed in a different folder. You'll have to clarify.
Shaun's-Zig-Zag-Gun-Composite--OG-Flat.jpg
Bill, absolutely beautiful.
Can you explain your thoughts on the little square tail on that design? Also, any chance we can see the foil of that board?
Thanks for being on the HOT SEAT!!
Mike
Aloha Mike
Thanks for checking in! The tail on the board is a small Squash. No big revelations here. In the single fin days, pintails and rounded pintails ruled at Pipe. All in an effort to get the tail to sit down in the water a little deeper and keep the fin in the water so as to not spin out. With the advent of tri fins, and a fin near the rail it was possible to ride boards with much wider tails that wouldn't spin out. Wider tails plane better, accelerate better, and turn easier. Most of Shauns boards that I made him at this time had Squash tails, therefore the decision to make his longer boards with similar but smaller and narrower tails is pretty simple really. I am always trying to create a strong sense of familiarity and consistency between boards in a quiver so that the rider will have little problem moving between boards quickly as wave and circumstances require.
Most beginners and even many established shapers see every board as their moment to project their individual and innovative brilliance on the world of surfing and hopefully magazine fame! While this can, of course, be a lot of fun and entertaining but it is pretty much useless in the process of learning to shape well or truly advancing design.
It is always amazing to me how many shapers often with notable reputations have little in their resume's other then a few kooky designs that have never panned out, no longer exist or only did so for a very brief time. Don't get me wrong here, it is good to push the limits to discover where they lay. But our industry tends to glorify these odd designs and give them a life and validation, well beyond all levels of common sense or marketplace reality.
My personal goal has generally been one of sifting through all the varied design ideas washing around in my mind, finding ones that make sense and then refining those to their limits.
Regarding the "foil" of the board, sadly, I had very litttle time to take pictures between its completion to its shipping and didn't take any specific foil imanges. But I will look through what I have and see if any images show the thickness flow and foil better. I also shot HD video of the whole process but won't have time to edit it into anything for awhile. But maybe among the hours of footage, there might be a frame grab that I can do which would show the profile.
Generally speaking the board has a well balanced profile with a slighlty beaky nose and slighlty forward thickness as Shaun tends to ride forward on his boards as you can see in the photo of him at Pipe.
This is the closest image I could find to a profile.
ST Barnfield Zig Zag Gun Deck Profile.jpg
That board definitely captures an era, makes me feel old.
Bill, you said earlier that the rear bottom had concave V, did you mean like spiral vee or inverted vee. Can you Describe the later and where you like to use it in your shaping.
You always brought a ton of insight and info to Sways,
Mahalos for your generosity
Aloha peterg1
The big problem in discussing board design is language and how it confuses communications. You may recall that both Inverted Vee and Spiral Vee have been discussed on Swaylocks before, often with much confusion and only marginal agreement as to what those terms really describe in the end. So honestly and respectfully, I am not sure exactly what your question is.
In my world...
Vee in an area of the boards bottom, is simply stated as, where the center of the board is higher then the rails.
This generally creates two Vee panels, one on each side of the stringer.
Concave Vee means that each of these panels is concaved. That is, the center of the panel is lower then either side of the panel (as in the stringer or the rail) if the panel is adjusted to level. There are also Domed Vee, Rolled Vee, Flat Vee, Spiral Vee, Inverted Vee, etc, etc. Each, I am sure, is interpeted differently depending on the cultural language of the surf tribe it is being discussed within.
In my world, a very small and narcissistic tribe :-), neither of these above describe a Spiral Vee or Inverted Vee. Can you (and only you please) describe what these are to you so I can better understand your question and what you are trying to visualize when I say Concave Vee. And what you visualize when you say Inverted Vee. Draw a picture if you like. Then if I am using it, I can tell you where and why.
Good answer Bill. Sick and tired of hearing people say they just learned to shape "V-Panels. Or they are designing a board on AKU-Shape with "Spiral-V, inverted rocker and "double barrrel" bull shit out the Ass etc. etc. and yada, yada, yada. Yeah and I just shaped a "double horse shit twat bottom.
I understand your frustration McDing. But I don't want anyone to misunderstand my comments. I am not attacking anyone and I am not "sick and tired" of anything or anyone.
One of the big problems with forums is that the directlon and personality of a thread can quickly drift off into at new trend led by the most outspoken or dramatic comments of the new posters. Before long, anyone in the thread is seen to be in agreement with the more extreme comments. I don't want to be caught in that kind of situation and I want to make clear that I am not in agreement with it.
Surfboard making is pretty much whatever anyone wants to make it. I am not saying that is particularily a good idea. I am just stating what it is. There is no University of Surfboard Building. There are no Trade Unions. There are no Standards Organizations, like there are for Engineers, Architects, etc. Everyone is pretty much winging it, like a bunch of grafitti artists painting trains and tunnels in England.
Except there is a big difference in that the surfboard builders product is also a tangible, functional piece of "Engineered Art". Not just "Art". And because of this, there are certain consumer expectations for performance, durability, safety and precision. Yet there is no governing body that oversees and demands this. I am not suggesting here that there should be either. I am just saying that the surfboard industry, like the underground drug industry is pretty much a buyer beware industry.
Everyone making boards, as they grow from begginer to a pro will eventually see how wacky the surfboard industry is. And the more their incomes rely on it, the more frustrated they will get with the easy entry into the market by horribly unskilled and often unprofessional players who can all too easily take a chunk out of the "pros" paycheck. At the same time the surfboard industry and consumers have embrased this business model wholeheartedly, especially since the shortboard revolution.
So where am I going with this..... Like it or not, this is the industry we are stuck with and it isn't likely to change anytime soon. In the huge pool of players there are all kinds. And because of the easy entry, there is no filtering process to make sure that the most skilled and best trained are the most players. In fact, it is probably more likely that most of the players are the least skilled with most having zero formal training.
There is then, little chance that there will be an accurate and shared vocabulary to describe design features. Who would establish this anyway? The surf magazines? Ha! Swaylocks..... Heck, we have rarely if ever achieved agreement on anything here. Is there anyone in charge? Nope!
You can't take anything too seriously. You have to have a huge sense of humor about yourself and others. You have to get comfortable trying to be precise in an industry that worships imprecision, newness, being different etc, even if it is stolen and not new, yet still requires great conformity to be cool and accepted. You better be wearing a Trucker Hat..! It is a wild ride, have fun and do the best you can and ignore the rest lest it drive you crazy!
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