Can you explain to me what a "Spiral V" is. One thing I do understand is the misuse of various terms to describe the same feature in a board. Hype etc.
Can you explain to me what a "Spiral V" is. One thing I do understand is the misuse of various terms to describe the same feature in a board. Hype etc.
Maybe this? I am not an expert on the subject and would love to find an "older timer" then me who really new the description in its original form.
Bill Thanks for clearing up the rumors that you were shaping at Sunset in Encinitas. Before the Willis Brothers moved to Hawaii I hd milton shape me a board turned out to be one of my all time favorite rides a simple round pin around 6'2' as I recall.
You have said that surfboard design has changed a lot since the advent of short boards. In That time many design elements have come and gone. As one of the better shapers in the last 40 years what elements that have gone out of fashion do you think need to be revisted? One of the things I have noticed from watching some old lips of Lopez , Rory Russel and others surfing Pipeline is how early they get into waves. Now it seems everyone has to drop in right under the lip. Guess this is kind of a leading question on volum and foam distribution of todays Boards.
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According to Mikki Dora Malibu went to the Dogs in 1964. The Chumash Indians will tell you it was 1664.
Bill Thanks for clearing up the rumors that you were shaping at Sunset in Encinitas. Before the Willis Brothers moved to Hawaii I hd milton shape me a board turned out to be one of my all time favorite rides a simple round pin around 6'2' as I recall.
You have said that surfboard design has changed a lot since the advent of short boards. In That time many design elements have come and gone. As one of the better shapers in the last 40 years what elements that have gone out of fashion do you think need to be revisted?
I can't think of anything that "Needs to be revisited" really. The current group of top shapers are amazingly talented guys with amazing tools and talents at their disposal. Shaping machines in the right hands, can allow them to quickly shape every variation of a design feature while keeping all the other features unchanged. This allows them to easily sift through all the variables one can think of to arrive at the best overall design and be fairly confident that they have got it right or are on the right track to get there. In the hands of the right guy this is unstopable!
Sadly many using machines, are busy copying other peoples successful designs rather then being used as, scientific tools for controlled experimentation.
Surfboard design is at a highly matured state, such that there is only a very, very small likelyhood that anyone is going to create any kind of revolutionary designs that will overturn the status quo. I am not saying it couldnt happen, it is just not very likely. This is typical of many products in their life cycle. Can anyone improve significantly on the iPod? Car Tires? The Trumpet? Eventually all products hit a certain level of maturity in their life cycle where they go a bit flat. Not because they are bad, but because they are so darn good and well refined that there just isn't anything left to improve on. Still you never know when someone might just stumble upon a unique combination of features that will launch a mini revolution. Usually this is due to some external change that makes the "new thing" possible. Wave pools might be just such a change. Or if for some strange reason ocean water got thicker. Or gravity changed. Like finding oceans on Mars.........
artz wrote:
One of the things I have noticed from watching some old lips of Lopez , Rory Russel and others surfing Pipeline is how early they get into waves. Now it seems everyone has to drop in right under the lip. Guess this is kind of a leading question on volum and foam distribution of todays Boards.
There are several reasons for what you are observing, not the least of which is crowds and multi fins.
In the early 70's the average length of a Pipe gun was 7'6" to 8'6". And thickness was between 2 3/4" to 3 1/4". Sunset boards were even bigger and thicker. Crowds are a powerful driving force in directing changes. In 71 I was riding a 7'6" x 18 1/2 and thinner. By 74 it was 8'2" x 19 and thicker. Shaun's famous pink gun was 8' if I remember right. You have to be competively equipped to match the crowd your in and if they go longer you have to also or you can't get enough waves.
Once multi fins got sorted out, everything changed radically. The fin on the inside rail meant it was near impossible to spin out or lose one's grip on the face of the wave. Additionally, it meant we could ride wider & thicker tails, allowing narrower boards that were thinner forward and yet were much faster then single fins. One could now outrun most any tube if it was clean enough. And since most were following this trend down in board size, it meant that everyone could follow along as well without the normal punishment of not getting enough waves.
Backside surfing at Pipe has continued to evolve to the point that those guys can often take of as deep or deeper then the frontside guys. Granted the grabbing rail, butt drag take off, to achieve this, is nearly a bodyboarder technique but it has been widely embrased and accepted so it is part of the whole process now.
While the crowds have gotten even worse, the improvements in board designs have allowed surfers to use ever smaller equipment that would not normally be crowd friendly at all. On top of that, at places like Pipeline, the caliber of the surfers has risen so high that everyone out, is a world class surfer. There is no room in the peak for anyone of lesser stature. This is hugely important when trying to paddle through a blinding, offshore spray and into the latest take off of your life on one of the most dangerous waves in the world, while confidently knowing that your peers in the water aren't likely to do anything stupid that is going to kill you..!
Thanks, Bill the question was about THAT board in IT's bottom.I focused on it because its your current retro build which you posted and breifly/previously described as having "inverted" V in the rear. Just asking if it had spiral which is retro maybe a little earlier than that that era or angular inverted V = /\, where it was placed, apex @ stringer? and if and where you use that configuration in your shaping.
I "think" I know V. Correct me if I'm wrong,
Both inverted Vee and spiral have the element of concave associated/configured with them, the former typically flatter angular, the later radial with a lower centerline and higher railline that eventually meets back up with the centerline/stringer in the very tail:, and both are completely, in orientation and configuration, opposite of flat, domed or rolled V ( unless you flank the with concaves)
AND moreover All are especially & completely unrelated to the double horse shit twat @Mcdings been smoking.
Thanks, Bill the question was about THAT board in IT's bottom.I focused on it because its your current retro build which you posted and breifly/previously described as having "inverted" V in the rear. Just asking if it had spiral which is retro maybe a little earlier than that that era or angular inverted V = /\, where it was placed, apex @ stringer? and if and where you use that configuration in your shaping.
I "think" I know V. Correct me if I'm wrong,
Both inverted Vee and spiral have the element of concave associated/configured with them, the former typically flatter angular, the later radial with a lower centerline and higher railline that eventually meets back up with the centerline/stringer in the very tail:, and both are completely, in orientation and configuration, opposite of flat, domed or rolled V ( unless you flank the with concaves)
AND moreover All are especially & completely unrelated to the double horse shit twat @Mcdings been smoking.
Aloha peterg1
I understand what board we are specifically talking about. But I never used the term.... "inverted" V to describe the vee in the board. Nor would I. I honestly don't know what an "Inverted Vee" is. I am UNaware of whether or not any concave is required to create an Inverted Vee as you have stated.
Shaun's board doesn't have what I would define as Spiral Vee. It is a Squash tail which eliminates the Spiral. Additionally, Shauns board is flat behind the fin so the rail line doesn't have to spiral up to meet the stringer.
In my world, the "Spiral" part of the Spiral Vee describes how on a round pintail the rail line is moving away from the center line. As this difference grows toward the tail, the rail line has to evenutally rise back up to meet with the stringner at the tip of the tail. Looking at the profile of the board, the rail line (sort of) spirals up radically at the tail of the board. I am not asserting this to be true or agreed to by everyone in the industry. It is just what I have always understood it to be going back a few decades. I have included a graphic to show this, that I made a long time ago when this subject came up before.
Maximum Vee is front of the fins around 24" up from tail. For the record, I don't use the term Apex when discussing board design as it has all kinds of inherent problems, not the least is that few understand it and where it actually lands on curves. (see previous Swaylocks discussions on Apex) By maximum Vee I mean the greatest distance between the stringer and rail rockers. It has nothing to do with what would or could be the Apex of either of those rockers.
I am still unclear of your question. Are you using spiral to describe the vee from rail to rail or am I misunderstanding you.
Well thanks for clearing that up "old timer" peeterG. Makes perfect sense. "Cuse me while I check the mail box for my Social Security check. There's nothing wrong with being unable to answer an honest question. But there is no need to circumvent, evade or otherwise BS ones way thru the question. Easier to say "flock I don't know".
hello Bill !
GREAT to have you on swaylocks !
two questions ....
1. what do you think has been the greatest thing in surfing over the last say 45 years [since 1970] ?
and ....
2. what has been the thing you have most enjoyed , in your eras of shaping on the north shore ?
cheers !
ben [previously chipfish61]
*************************************************** http://www.benchipper.blogspot.com.au/
Aloha Ben
#1 As a surfboard designer/builder Multi Fins. Even though they existed pre 70's.
But...... if I was a media guy...... Digital Photography and Video! And Drones!
#2 Surfing the waves here, in particular Pipeline, before it became too crowded.
Bill Pipe Photo - Jeff Devine
Bill Pipe Bottom Turn Yellow Devine 3-81.jpg
thanks very much Bill !
great photo too by the way !
cheers
ben
*************************************************** http://www.benchipper.blogspot.com.au/
Can you explain to me what a "Spiral V" is. One thing I do understand is the misuse of various terms to describe the same feature in a board. Hype etc.
Maybe this? I am not an expert on the subject and would love to find an "older timer" then me who really new the description in its original form.
Spiral Vee..? .jpg
Bill Thanks for clearing up the rumors that you were shaping at Sunset in Encinitas. Before the Willis Brothers moved to Hawaii I hd milton shape me a board turned out to be one of my all time favorite rides a simple round pin around 6'2' as I recall. You have said that surfboard design has changed a lot since the advent of short boards. In That time many design elements have come and gone. As one of the better shapers in the last 40 years what elements that have gone out of fashion do you think need to be revisted? One of the things I have noticed from watching some old lips of Lopez , Rory Russel and others surfing Pipeline is how early they get into waves. Now it seems everyone has to drop in right under the lip. Guess this is kind of a leading question on volum and foam distribution of todays Boards.
According to Mikki Dora Malibu went to the Dogs in 1964. The Chumash Indians will tell you it was 1664.
I can't think of anything that "Needs to be revisited" really. The current group of top shapers are amazingly talented guys with amazing tools and talents at their disposal. Shaping machines in the right hands, can allow them to quickly shape every variation of a design feature while keeping all the other features unchanged. This allows them to easily sift through all the variables one can think of to arrive at the best overall design and be fairly confident that they have got it right or are on the right track to get there. In the hands of the right guy this is unstopable!
Sadly many using machines, are busy copying other peoples successful designs rather then being used as, scientific tools for controlled experimentation.
Surfboard design is at a highly matured state, such that there is only a very, very small likelyhood that anyone is going to create any kind of revolutionary designs that will overturn the status quo. I am not saying it couldnt happen, it is just not very likely. This is typical of many products in their life cycle. Can anyone improve significantly on the iPod? Car Tires? The Trumpet? Eventually all products hit a certain level of maturity in their life cycle where they go a bit flat. Not because they are bad, but because they are so darn good and well refined that there just isn't anything left to improve on. Still you never know when someone might just stumble upon a unique combination of features that will launch a mini revolution. Usually this is due to some external change that makes the "new thing" possible. Wave pools might be just such a change. Or if for some strange reason ocean water got thicker. Or gravity changed. Like finding oceans on Mars.........
There are several reasons for what you are observing, not the least of which is crowds and multi fins.
In the early 70's the average length of a Pipe gun was 7'6" to 8'6". And thickness was between 2 3/4" to 3 1/4". Sunset boards were even bigger and thicker. Crowds are a powerful driving force in directing changes. In 71 I was riding a 7'6" x 18 1/2 and thinner. By 74 it was 8'2" x 19 and thicker. Shaun's famous pink gun was 8' if I remember right. You have to be competively equipped to match the crowd your in and if they go longer you have to also or you can't get enough waves.
Once multi fins got sorted out, everything changed radically. The fin on the inside rail meant it was near impossible to spin out or lose one's grip on the face of the wave. Additionally, it meant we could ride wider & thicker tails, allowing narrower boards that were thinner forward and yet were much faster then single fins. One could now outrun most any tube if it was clean enough. And since most were following this trend down in board size, it meant that everyone could follow along as well without the normal punishment of not getting enough waves.
Backside surfing at Pipe has continued to evolve to the point that those guys can often take of as deep or deeper then the frontside guys. Granted the grabbing rail, butt drag take off, to achieve this, is nearly a bodyboarder technique but it has been widely embrased and accepted so it is part of the whole process now.
While the crowds have gotten even worse, the improvements in board designs have allowed surfers to use ever smaller equipment that would not normally be crowd friendly at all. On top of that, at places like Pipeline, the caliber of the surfers has risen so high that everyone out, is a world class surfer. There is no room in the peak for anyone of lesser stature. This is hugely important when trying to paddle through a blinding, offshore spray and into the latest take off of your life on one of the most dangerous waves in the world, while confidently knowing that your peers in the water aren't likely to do anything stupid that is going to kill you..!
Thanks, Bill the question was about THAT board in IT's bottom.I focused on it because its your current retro build which you posted and breifly/previously described as having "inverted" V in the rear. Just asking if it had spiral which is retro maybe a little earlier than that that era or angular inverted V = /\, where it was placed, apex @ stringer? and if and where you use that configuration in your shaping.
I "think" I know V. Correct me if I'm wrong,
Both inverted Vee and spiral have the element of concave associated/configured with them, the former typically flatter angular, the later radial with a lower centerline and higher railline that eventually meets back up with the centerline/stringer in the very tail:, and both are completely, in orientation and configuration, opposite of flat, domed or rolled V ( unless you flank the with concaves)
AND moreover All are especially & completely unrelated to the double horse shit twat @Mcdings been smoking.
Aloha peterg1
I understand what board we are specifically talking about. But I never used the term.... "inverted" V to describe the vee in the board. Nor would I. I honestly don't know what an "Inverted Vee" is. I am UNaware of whether or not any concave is required to create an Inverted Vee as you have stated.
Shaun's board doesn't have what I would define as Spiral Vee. It is a Squash tail which eliminates the Spiral. Additionally, Shauns board is flat behind the fin so the rail line doesn't have to spiral up to meet the stringer.
In my world, the "Spiral" part of the Spiral Vee describes how on a round pintail the rail line is moving away from the center line. As this difference grows toward the tail, the rail line has to evenutally rise back up to meet with the stringner at the tip of the tail. Looking at the profile of the board, the rail line (sort of) spirals up radically at the tail of the board. I am not asserting this to be true or agreed to by everyone in the industry. It is just what I have always understood it to be going back a few decades. I have included a graphic to show this, that I made a long time ago when this subject came up before.
Spiral Vee..? .jpg
Maximum Vee is front of the fins around 24" up from tail. For the record, I don't use the term Apex when discussing board design as it has all kinds of inherent problems, not the least is that few understand it and where it actually lands on curves. (see previous Swaylocks discussions on Apex) By maximum Vee I mean the greatest distance between the stringer and rail rockers. It has nothing to do with what would or could be the Apex of either of those rockers.
I am still unclear of your question. Are you using spiral to describe the vee from rail to rail or am I misunderstanding you.
BB
Spiral Vee..? .jpg
Well thanks for clearing that up "old timer" peeterG. Makes perfect sense. "Cuse me while I check the mail box for my Social Security check. There's nothing wrong with being unable to answer an honest question. But there is no need to circumvent, evade or otherwise BS ones way thru the question. Easier to say "flock I don't know".
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