Thanks, Bill the question was about THAT board in IT's bottom.I focused on it because its your current retro build which you posted and breifly/previously described as having "inverted" V in the rear. Just asking if it had spiral which is retro maybe a little earlier than that that era or angular inverted V = /\, where it was placed, apex @ stringer? and if and where you use that configuration in your shaping.
I "think" I know V. Correct me if I'm wrong,
Both inverted Vee and spiral have the element of concave associated/configured with them, the former typically flatter angular, the later radial with a lower centerline and higher railline that eventually meets back up with the centerline/stringer in the very tail:, and both are completely, in orientation and configuration, opposite of flat, domed or rolled V ( unless you flank the with concaves)
AND moreover All are especially & completely unrelated to the double horse shit twat @Mcdings been smoking.
Aloha peterg1
Did you notice the "Spiral Vee" thread Greg Griffen started in Discussions? Presuming the info is accurate, Spiral Vee is a rail to rail feature, as I think you were suggesting. I don't know if your perception of Spiral Vee matches what was stated or is the same as the drawings posted but it if is, then your question about whether or not I was using Spiral Vee in Shaun's board can now be answered in the negative. I didn't use Spiral or Inverted Vee. My "Concave Vee" is and pretty much always has been, a consistent shallow concave arc from rail to stringer. I will try to remember the info in Greg's thread so I can respond more authoritively next time and not sound like such an uninformed ignoramous, regarding something that all cool shaper dudes are supposed to know. :-)
Now in the "Poking Fun At The Surf Industry" Department. (not poking fun at you peterg1)
Sadly, I haven't invented a cool name to describle the shallow arc I use so we are just stuck with "Concave Vee" for now. But just for fun, maybe I will think up a cool name for it and print up some logos, T-shirts and Trucker Hats...!! That way this Concave Vee thing, which is not my invention I am sure, can be attributed to me for ever and ever.
Seriously though peterg1, thanks for the discussion and time.
"You can't take anything too seriously. You have to have a huge sense of humor about yourself and others. You have to get comfortable trying to be precise in an industry that worships imprecision, newness, being different etc, even if it is stolen and not new, yet still requires great conformity to be cool and accepted. You better be wearing a Trucker Hat..! It is a wild ride, have fun and do the best you can and ignore the rest lest it drive you crazy ! "
.... THAT .... right there , to me ..... has to be some of the best , most sensible advice [ for life , as well as "surfboard stuff "] that I have ever read , in eleven years of being on this forum.
[ Common sense really , but , as the cliche says ..... the thing about 'common sense ' , is that it is not actually all that 'common ' ! ]
"You can't take anything too seriously. You have to have a huge sense of humor about yourself and others. You have to get comfortable trying to be precise in an industry that worships imprecision, newness, being different etc, even if it is stolen and not new, yet still requires great conformity to be cool and accepted. You better be wearing a Trucker Hat..! It is a wild ride, have fun and do the best you can and ignore the rest lest it drive you crazy ! "
.... THAT .... right there , to me ..... has to be some of the best , most sensible advice [ for life , as well as "surfboard stuff "] that I have ever read , in eleven years of being on this forum.
[ Common sense really , but , as the cliche says ..... the thing about 'common sense ' , is that it is not actually all that 'common ' ! ]
Believe it or not I hadn't seen the previous posts you made regarding NOT using the term APEX! I'm saving this one and hereby consider it to be the final word on the subject. I will never refer to 'tail rocker apex' again.... HAHA
So...... Spiral Vee. Lets talk about this and then lets move on.
Greg Griffen's personal recolections are accurate as far as I know. Additionally, the quotes he posted are also accurate, as far as I know. And while I have said "I don't know" alot about these things, I probably know alot more then I was letting on that I did.
Greg is a tad older then I am and is the Older Guy who I was referring to that might post something about this subject. He isn't the only guy who knows but is the one I figured might speak up on the subject.
I should post this on the "Spiral Vee" thread but I am just going to give this subject one more shot and then move one because there are many who have asked questions that I haven't gotten to on this Hot Seat thread and don't want to delay them any longer.
It is very important for everyone to understand here, especially the younger guys (say.... under 50 ha, ha) that unless you were there 48 years ago or so, you will never understand how amazing the shortboard revolution was. I won't spend a bunch of time here trying to tell that story or make my point about how unique it was. But..... IT WAS! Just believe it. One of the reasons for this was because something totally new was being created by a whole bunch of people all around the surfing world who had no idea where it was going to go in the end. Most didn't even know each other. Most weren't industry pros. It was a very organic, grass roots happeining, in which there were no rules and no one in control.
No one really had a full grasp of what was happening nor was anyone really leading the charge. Everything was happening super fast and change dominated, it was coming from all directions at once. There were many different people in regional leaderships at moments, with a few making it into International leadership for brief times here and there. Every design developemnt of the time, had some point of origin and an originator or two. Some got credit, some didn't. Everthing was being coppied and shared at an amazing rate. A specific design development might get a name that stuck, others didn't. Within weeks, as a design circulated around the world, that name was being attributed to other designs that had nothing to do with the specifics of the original design. In most cases, the specific design wasn't even around anymore after a few months! But, the name often was and was kept circulating around and around by being attributed to all kinds of different versions of the original design and even sometimes, something completely different.
There is really no way to compare what happened back then to how such a revolution would happen now with the Internet and all the traveling surfers and contests all over the world. We all judge by our own standards and as such we all think we know, because we DO know within the scope of your true experience. But we are limited in what we can be sure of, because we usually weren't there yet likely wish we would have been. So we believe what we think we know about what happened because it makes us feel better, almost like we were actually there. But in a time of tomultious change, like the late 60s, this is a horrible way to establish what the true facts or history were.
This is why I am often saying...... I don't know! It doesn't mean I don't know what I am doing. It likely just means I don't know what your talking about, though you think you do.
I was there for a lot of the stuff discussed here but I also recognize how transient and perishible most of what happened was. So I don't like to lay claims to absolutes and don't feel I need to, to be a cool shaper dude. I know what I saw and what I experienced. And I am not worried about what I missed. I also recognize that the revolutioin was so huge, that my own experience can only reflect a small slice of the world wide revolution that took place.
So lets summerize. To the best of my knowledge, Original Spiral Vee has little to do with concaves. In fact, it seems to me that these bottoms, rail to rail, were not even very flat but rather slightly convex at their flattest points. Flats and convaves were added by others shortly after, including me but I never did or would call them Spiral or lay claim to any originality in this.
To the best of my knowledge, Spiral Vee with its original name and design was, as Greg has confirmed, a wide convex bottom in the forward center part of the board that slowly narrowed and tapered down to a narrow centered crown of Vee forward of the fin, lessening and flattening out toward the tail. And also, lessening and flattening toward the rails. Remember, this was an evolution away from longboads that had very roundy bottoms. This is hard to describe in words it is more so, a slice of a cone.
Nothing in this design really "spirals", it "Tapers". But that is what it got called and is one of the main reasons everyone gets so confused. Spirals, are by definition, completely different things. But it was a cool sounding name and it stuck big time! This is a perfect example of the name absorbing all the memories and emotions of the era while not describing the design very well at all.
Because of this, people wanting to be players in the tribe, attach deeply to these "named" things even though they only actually existed for a few months before morphing into all kinds of variations to the point where decades later everyone is arguing over the precise design and use of the term. As noted, not long after, some were calling Convave Vees, Spiral Vees. The little graphic I posted was another version of what some called a Spiral Vee and why.
There is nothing magic contained in the name, such that you can shape what you think is a "Spiral Vee" into your board and it will then inherit some deep and powerful magic from the late 60's which will hurtle your design into the stratosphere and bring you immense fame. The design had some relevence back then no doubt, but like most things of the time.... little of it, if anything, still exists in a form that can rightfully own the original title, let alone, bring special magic to your designs like Frodo's magic ring! The only magic left...... is solely in the minds of those who toss around the name and those who are impressed with them doing it.
As I have said many times...... That is a lot of what surfing and making boards is actually about, so if it rings your bells, enjoy your use of the term and impressing other with it. It is all good!
D
Aloha peterg1
Did you notice the "Spiral Vee" thread Greg Griffen started in Discussions? Presuming the info is accurate, Spiral Vee is a rail to rail feature, as I think you were suggesting. I don't know if your perception of Spiral Vee matches what was stated or is the same as the drawings posted but it if is, then your question about whether or not I was using Spiral Vee in Shaun's board can now be answered in the negative. I didn't use Spiral or Inverted Vee. My "Concave Vee" is and pretty much always has been, a consistent shallow concave arc from rail to stringer. I will try to remember the info in Greg's thread so I can respond more authoritively next time and not sound like such an uninformed ignoramous, regarding something that all cool shaper dudes are supposed to know. :-)
Now in the "Poking Fun At The Surf Industry" Department. (not poking fun at you peterg1)
Sadly, I haven't invented a cool name to describle the shallow arc I use so we are just stuck with "Concave Vee" for now. But just for fun, maybe I will think up a cool name for it and print up some logos, T-shirts and Trucker Hats...!! That way this Concave Vee thing, which is not my invention I am sure, can be attributed to me for ever and ever.
Seriously though peterg1, thanks for the discussion and time.
BB
"You can't take anything too seriously. You have to have a huge sense of humor about yourself and others. You have to get comfortable trying to be precise in an industry that worships imprecision, newness, being different etc, even if it is stolen and not new, yet still requires great conformity to be cool and accepted. You better be wearing a Trucker Hat..! It is a wild ride, have fun and do the best you can and ignore the rest lest it drive you crazy ! "
.... THAT .... right there , to me ..... has to be some of the best , most sensible advice [ for life , as well as "surfboard stuff "] that I have ever read , in eleven years of being on this forum.
[ Common sense really , but , as the cliche says ..... the thing about 'common sense ' , is that it is not actually all that 'common ' ! ]
THANKS !
Ben
*************************************************** http://www.benchipper.blogspot.com.au/
Glad you caught that too Ben.
Words to live by.
Thanks Bill for putting it all in perspective.
Respect.
Barry Snyder
Surfboards made by hand. Not machine.
http://barrysnyderdesigns.com
Instagram @barrysnyderdesigns
Hi Bill -
Some priceless stuff in this thread. I had typed a question but common sense got the better of me and I have edited it out. Thanks for sharing!
I saw it and worked on an answer.
Rocker Apex 2015.jpg
Believe it or not I hadn't seen the previous posts you made regarding NOT using the term APEX! I'm saving this one and hereby consider it to be the final word on the subject. I will never refer to 'tail rocker apex' again.... HAHA
Thanks! (seriously)
...
What happened to your post? I was going to answer but now it is gone....
So...... Spiral Vee. Lets talk about this and then lets move on.
Greg Griffen's personal recolections are accurate as far as I know. Additionally, the quotes he posted are also accurate, as far as I know. And while I have said "I don't know" alot about these things, I probably know alot more then I was letting on that I did.
Greg is a tad older then I am and is the Older Guy who I was referring to that might post something about this subject. He isn't the only guy who knows but is the one I figured might speak up on the subject.
I should post this on the "Spiral Vee" thread but I am just going to give this subject one more shot and then move one because there are many who have asked questions that I haven't gotten to on this Hot Seat thread and don't want to delay them any longer.
It is very important for everyone to understand here, especially the younger guys (say.... under 50 ha, ha) that unless you were there 48 years ago or so, you will never understand how amazing the shortboard revolution was. I won't spend a bunch of time here trying to tell that story or make my point about how unique it was. But..... IT WAS! Just believe it. One of the reasons for this was because something totally new was being created by a whole bunch of people all around the surfing world who had no idea where it was going to go in the end. Most didn't even know each other. Most weren't industry pros. It was a very organic, grass roots happeining, in which there were no rules and no one in control.
No one really had a full grasp of what was happening nor was anyone really leading the charge. Everything was happening super fast and change dominated, it was coming from all directions at once. There were many different people in regional leaderships at moments, with a few making it into International leadership for brief times here and there. Every design developemnt of the time, had some point of origin and an originator or two. Some got credit, some didn't. Everthing was being coppied and shared at an amazing rate. A specific design development might get a name that stuck, others didn't. Within weeks, as a design circulated around the world, that name was being attributed to other designs that had nothing to do with the specifics of the original design. In most cases, the specific design wasn't even around anymore after a few months! But, the name often was and was kept circulating around and around by being attributed to all kinds of different versions of the original design and even sometimes, something completely different.
There is really no way to compare what happened back then to how such a revolution would happen now with the Internet and all the traveling surfers and contests all over the world. We all judge by our own standards and as such we all think we know, because we DO know within the scope of your true experience. But we are limited in what we can be sure of, because we usually weren't there yet likely wish we would have been. So we believe what we think we know about what happened because it makes us feel better, almost like we were actually there. But in a time of tomultious change, like the late 60s, this is a horrible way to establish what the true facts or history were.
This is why I am often saying...... I don't know! It doesn't mean I don't know what I am doing. It likely just means I don't know what your talking about, though you think you do.
I was there for a lot of the stuff discussed here but I also recognize how transient and perishible most of what happened was. So I don't like to lay claims to absolutes and don't feel I need to, to be a cool shaper dude. I know what I saw and what I experienced. And I am not worried about what I missed. I also recognize that the revolutioin was so huge, that my own experience can only reflect a small slice of the world wide revolution that took place.
So lets summerize. To the best of my knowledge, Original Spiral Vee has little to do with concaves. In fact, it seems to me that these bottoms, rail to rail, were not even very flat but rather slightly convex at their flattest points. Flats and convaves were added by others shortly after, including me but I never did or would call them Spiral or lay claim to any originality in this.
To the best of my knowledge, Spiral Vee with its original name and design was, as Greg has confirmed, a wide convex bottom in the forward center part of the board that slowly narrowed and tapered down to a narrow centered crown of Vee forward of the fin, lessening and flattening out toward the tail. And also, lessening and flattening toward the rails. Remember, this was an evolution away from longboads that had very roundy bottoms. This is hard to describe in words it is more so, a slice of a cone.
Nothing in this design really "spirals", it "Tapers". But that is what it got called and is one of the main reasons everyone gets so confused. Spirals, are by definition, completely different things. But it was a cool sounding name and it stuck big time! This is a perfect example of the name absorbing all the memories and emotions of the era while not describing the design very well at all.
Because of this, people wanting to be players in the tribe, attach deeply to these "named" things even though they only actually existed for a few months before morphing into all kinds of variations to the point where decades later everyone is arguing over the precise design and use of the term. As noted, not long after, some were calling Convave Vees, Spiral Vees. The little graphic I posted was another version of what some called a Spiral Vee and why.
There is nothing magic contained in the name, such that you can shape what you think is a "Spiral Vee" into your board and it will then inherit some deep and powerful magic from the late 60's which will hurtle your design into the stratosphere and bring you immense fame. The design had some relevence back then no doubt, but like most things of the time.... little of it, if anything, still exists in a form that can rightfully own the original title, let alone, bring special magic to your designs like Frodo's magic ring! The only magic left...... is solely in the minds of those who toss around the name and those who are impressed with them doing it.
As I have said many times...... That is a lot of what surfing and making boards is actually about, so if it rings your bells, enjoy your use of the term and impressing other with it. It is all good!
This great and reverent synthesis could be the soulmate of Huck's advice about the shaping process:
Theories and concepts are great tools, but hard to understand for shaping noobs.
Experience rules, but we don't have the will to wait and learn anymore...
Let's get back to the foam and try to get something enjoyable from it !
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