SHAPER'S HOTSEAT: Larry Allison aka ProBox Larry

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fins's picture
Joined: 07/13/2012

and ,

  WHAT do you feel with be the next major breakthrough in fin design[s] , in the future ?

  cheers

  ben

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*************************************************** http://www.benchipper.blogspot.com.au/

Skulls Road's picture
Joined: 05/30/2015

I was wondering if I could pick your brain a bit, Mr. Allison.

I purchased one of your 9in pivot flex fins with the intention of using it on my 7'4 Mitsven egg. I wanted a wide base fin with a good amount of flex in the middle and tip. Would you recommend foiling it down or going with a completely different fin? And if possible, is there anyone in the Santa Cruz area you would recommend?

Thanks.

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Probox-Larry's picture
Joined: 05/24/2007

Skulls Road wrote:

I was wondering if I could pick your brain a bit, Mr. Allison.

I purchased one of your 9in pivot flex fins with the intention of using it on my 7'4 Mitsven egg. I wanted a wide base fin with a good amount of flex in the middle and tip. Would you recommend foiling it down or going with a completely different fin? And if possible, is there anyone in the Santa Cruz area you would recommend?

Thanks.

call me at 310-530-1383 and I will take care of you my friend!

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Skulls Road's picture
Joined: 05/30/2015

Probox-Larry wrote:

call me at 310-530-1383 and I will take care of you my friend!

I'll most likely be giving you a call tomorrow after dawn patrol. Thanks!!!

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Probox-Larry's picture
Joined: 05/24/2007

Skulls Road wrote:

I was wondering if I could pick your brain a bit, Mr. Allison.

I purchased one of your 9in pivot flex fins with the intention of using it on my 7'4 Mitsven egg. I wanted a wide base fin with a good amount of flex in the middle and tip. Would you recommend foiling it down or going with a completely different fin? And if possible, is there anyone in the Santa Cruz area you would recommend?

Thanks.

call me at 310-530-1383 and I will take care of you my friend!

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Probox-Larry's picture
Joined: 05/24/2007

Lets take a journey back to late 70's with G&S Star Syetem fins which we were contracted to make their fiber glass fins for them at that time. Here is a Twin fin board with the fin boxes installed after the lamination along with another board made in 1979 with plastic Twins. 

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Probox-Larry's picture
Joined: 05/24/2007

Coming into the early 80's California Finsystem came out. Boards like Wave Tool used this system alot for bigger Twins.

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Probox-Larry's picture
Joined: 05/24/2007

Then coming into the mid 80's Ofish'l hit the market.

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Probox-Larry's picture
Joined: 05/24/2007

Then in the late 80's Freestyle finsystem. Again install after lamination. First Screwless fin concept!

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Probox-Larry's picture
Joined: 05/24/2007

Then coming into 1991 or 1992 what is now called Future Finsystems came about.

You guys know where I am going with this I think, should answer some questions. But I will explain more in tech!

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gdaddy's picture
Joined: 10/31/2008

I am not fond of the way the forum software inserts new comments in the middle of the thread so I'm trying to post at the end so that the discussion can continue chronologically

WHY and When did a Flang come into play in the surfboard world? I am talking Flang and not Glass over! Ok my friends share in! - See more at: http://www.swaylocks.com/forums/shapers-hotseat-larry-allison-aka-probox...

I think it was to increase the surface area and contact area of the box as a means of spreading the load around a little  - even while reducing the mass of the boxes + resin.  

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Probox-Larry's picture
Joined: 05/24/2007

gdaddy wrote:

I am not fond of the way the forum software inserts new comments in the middle of the thread so I'm trying to post at the end so that the discussion can continue chronologically

WHY and When did a Flang come into play in the surfboard world? I am talking Flang and not Glass over! Ok my friends share in! - See more at: http://www.swaylocks.com/forums/shapers-hotseat-larry-allison-aka-probox...

I think it was to increase the surface area and contact area of the box as a means of spreading the load around a little  - even while reducing the mass of the boxes + resin.  

Great answer gdaddy that is correct in the marketing companies words of today and true in product, but in reality what caused the change was roll overs that happend in the mid 80's with the Official box like shown in this pic. By Official changing his design and added the flang he stopped the roll over effect people were having in a 5 to 6 lb. Clark Foam PU blank in or around 1986 when the first flang Official box came into play.

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gdaddy's picture
Joined: 10/31/2008

Yeah, I can see how a (basically) domed bottom on a box might roll over like that.   But anyways, you're saying the "squared" bottoms of the previous boxes didn't have that problem, ya?    I know I never had a problem with the traditional 10.5" box rolling over where ALL the load is being leveraged on just the one box by the 10+" fin.  Of course, I'm also not installing those boxes into stringerless 1.5# EPS, either.  

Which circles back around the my previous question about the role of foam density in protecting the box installs  (subtle, huh?)

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Dwight's picture
Joined: 02/13/2009

Lets see photos of you installing with the glass sock. I'm curious if you're letting the sock extend up thru the gap (above the board bottom). That would be ideal. Sand off excess after resin goes hard. But it seems like a fussy thing to deal with glass sock getting in the way of the tabs. Then you'd risk air voids. 

I've been wrapping my boxes with 1" wide glass tape. Two full wraps, then stuff it down in the hole. I use a popsicle stick to poke any glass sticking up, down into the slot gap. Never had a box failure set in 1.35# EPS.

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Probox-Larry's picture
Joined: 05/24/2007
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Probox-Larry's picture
Joined: 05/24/2007

Probox Larry Foiling and Soft Padding Sup Race Probox Twins, Enjoy my friends!

https://www.facebook.com/slimfastana/videos/10152311814980934/?pnref=story

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L.I.T.'s picture
Joined: 10/08/2014

Hi Larry,
         how's it going?

Oh dear; you may well not like the following questions, if so, I apologise in advance.

I'm currently building some fins for myself, and I've already got one surf-buddy who, upon hearing of this, is interested in me building a set of fins for them which they can't get anymore (they're no longer in production).

If they turn out well, I wouldn't be surprised if other surf-buddies start wanting fins from me too; probably something more custom (e.g. same dimensions as the fins they're currently running but with different flex or maybe a different foil, etc), but irregardless of what it is, I suspect there's a good chance they'll be asking for all kinds of different fin bases on them. Futures, FCS, FCS II, Pro-Box/Gearbox, longboard fin-box style, etc.

I'm happy to help them out with this (as spare time allows) as I think I'll get a real kick out of watching the difference it'll (hopefully) make to their surfing, but I don't want to break any laws in doing so.

So what are the legalities of doing this? -> If I'm interpreting the summary of the FCS vs Surfco judgement (see here: http://www.justice.gov/osg/brief/fin-control-systems-v-surfco-hawaii-amicus-invitation-petition) correctly, I get the impression it's legal to make fins with any kind of fin-base on them you want (i.e. not just the FCS original-style dual square-tab ones that the court case was about).

And that there's no requirement to obtain a license to do so, nor to pay royalties to the companies that manufacture those fin systems.

Is this true?

Different story though with the fin-boxes -> you can't make them without doing the above(?).

'Reason I ask that one is that a lot of my surf-buddies like to collect and ride old boards. So I think there's a fair chance that one day one of them will come to me with an ancient board whose fin is fine and which they dearly want to keep using, but whose ancient fin-box is busted beyond repair, and is something which you just can't buy nowadays. In that case the easiest option may well will be to try and fabricate something in the way of the original fin-box to get the board working for them again; would I be breaking any rules in doing so?

In regards to replicating an out-of-production fin for my friend (assuming I can get access to a set of the originals and measure up it's dimensions and flex rate), will I be breaking any laws in doing this? I'll be using a different construction method to the originals (and I probably won't be able to exactly replicate its characteristics because of that), but if I end up doing better than I expect and getting pretty close, what's the law around that? If you're not allowed to do that; what's the lee-way around that/how close can you get to replicating it exactly without infringing on any patents/copyright?

Mind you, the legal information I referred to above is just for under U.S. law - is it different elsewhere (e.g. I'm from Australia and I'm not sure what the deal is here)?

Cheers!

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chrisp's picture
Joined: 05/30/2006
Thanks Larry! Glad yo hear you are doing well! Do you use a hard pad for foiling? And a soft pad for finishing or???
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gadgetuk's picture
Joined: 04/01/2004

Probox-Larry wrote:
Probox Larry Foiling and Soft Padding Sup Race Probox Twins, Enjoy my friends!
https://www.facebook.com/slimfastana/videos/10152311814980934/?pnref=story

Can we get a closer look at your vice-grip clamp rig?

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magentawave's picture
Joined: 08/12/2009

Larry,

1) Are you familiar with how Joe Blair of Joe Blair Surfboards in Solana Beach places his fins (thrusters and quads) a lot farther forward than most? What do you think about that?

2) What is the reason you decided to make Probox a post-glass system as opposed to pre-glass?

Thanks

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GregTate's picture
Joined: 03/18/2004

Great videos of foiling and soft padding the twins. Looks like you have a giant vent system sucking the dust away from you?

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Personally I'm always ready to learn, although I do not always like being taught. - Winston Churchill

Probox-Larry's picture
Joined: 05/24/2007

GregTate wrote:

Great videos of foiling and soft padding the twins. Looks like you have a giant vent system sucking the dust away from you?

Yes Greg our blower system is like air condition. 

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Probox-Larry's picture
Joined: 05/24/2007

Quote from Magentawave:

Larry,

1) Are you familiar with how Joe Blair of Joe Blair Surfboards in Solana Beach places his fins (thrusters and quads) a lot farther forward than most? What do you think about that?

2) What is the reason you decided to make Probox a post-glass system as opposed to pre-glass?

Thanks

Joe Blair gets it, in the Standup world which is the opposite of the Surfboard world. In the Surfboard Prone world you are catching and riding the board more off the tail. In the Standup Surf world you are riding off the balance point of the board which is further forward. People look at only one eliment of surfing which is riding the wave and forget you have to paddle with a paddle which is different than catching a wave on a Surfboard in simple term.

Probox Install is designed to adapte to any board bottom. With a flang glass over you are shaping the board around a finsystem which is ASS BACKWARDS, unless your board designs have NO tail rocker or curved bottom contours!! Another funny thing is a glass over is a polyester mainly install. With so many different board structures these days i see installs that are done like Probox after lamination then glassed over which is more work, go figure. 

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Probox-Larry's picture
Joined: 05/24/2007

Quote from Dwight:

Lets see photos of you installing with the glass sock. I'm curious if you're letting the sock extend up thru the gap (above the board bottom). That would be ideal. Sand off excess after resin goes hard. But it seems like a fussy thing to deal with glass sock getting in the way of the tabs. Then you'd risk air voids. 

I've been wrapping my boxes with 1" wide glass tape. Two full wraps, then stuff it down in the hole. I use a popsicle stick to poke any glass sticking up, down into the slot gap. Never had a box failure set in 1.35# EPS.

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Probox-Larry's picture
Joined: 05/24/2007

Dwight, I talk about the sock install on my blog www.Probox-Larryretrofits.blogspot.com

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Dwight's picture
Joined: 02/13/2009

Are white jigs still standard, or did you switch to black?

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Probox-Larry's picture
Joined: 05/24/2007

Dwight, White or what we call natural is standard so we have no color bleeding onto the boards like when we were using Red jigs.

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Probox-Larry's picture
Joined: 05/24/2007

Quote from Magentawave:

Larry,

What is the reason you decided to make Probox a post-glass system as opposed to pre-glass?

Thanks

- See more at: http://www.swaylocks.com/forums/shapers-hotseat-larry-allison-aka-probox...

Proboxes are installed like center channels which has no board bottom or structure limitations. This is the way I was taught as a teenager and then it started to change coming into the 90's when compaines seemed to start cutting corners and going backwards.

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Probox-Larry's picture
Joined: 05/24/2007

Quote from fins:

hi Larry ! what is your favourite fin setup at [if there is one?]  your favourite wave ?   and , why ?   cheers   ben - See more at: http://www.swaylocks.com/forums/shapers-hotseat-larry-allison-aka-probox...

fins, my favorite fin is a 8" Parish/Brewer comdo from 1976 that I ride on my Greg P. McCoy which I glassed at 17years old and Resin pin stripped. Wanye Miyata taught me alot of this Resin art of pinstripping and Dennis Andries taught me how to make a board. This board I rode till 1990 and still have it hanging on the wall  at my house because of the good surf memories. My Boards I ride today are Bruce Grant 6'11" and Mike Dawson funshape 6'11" with the same 8" fin design.

As for best wave I rode that is hard because there are a few. 1) Little Drakes in the Ranch at 3 to 5 feet, 6 guys out for 5 hours. 2) Town Hawaii in April 3 to 5 ft from 5:30 PM till 9 PM at night with a full moon and medium high tide with 25 guys in the water. 3) Doheny before the Marina was done evening glass off 3 to 5 feet medium high tide coming in. 4) Malibu one Dawn patrol morning with 3 of my friends hit it perfect on a Sat morning for 4 hours with 15 guys breaking from 3rd point 4 to 6 feet, until 10 am before over 100 guys were out. 5)Camp Lopez Mexico, left break 3 to 6 feet off the old road from TJ. These were a few unreal sessions that will stay with me for a long time. 

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Probox-Larry's picture
Joined: 05/24/2007

hi Larry ! what is your favourite fin setup at [if there is one?]  your favourite wave ?   and , why ?   cheers   ben - See more at: http://www.swaylocks.com/forums/shapers-hotseat-larry-allison-aka-probox...

Fins, in a Standup World my surfboard of choice is this 10'6" with Multiple Fins set up using Probox 

My Raceboard is a 12'6" with multiple Probox fins with new fin designs that I made in the last 3 years for Standup.

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sharkcountry's picture
Joined: 03/25/2006

Just want to say thanks for all the helpful information. As far as the probox installations, I do it the same as you have shown except in the past I didn't make the holes in the foam with the fin key. On my last installation I angled the cut into the foam a little to make the bottom wider than the top, and I also added a glass patch over the bottom covering the last quarter or so of the board. I pack the boxes with flour and added wax in the grub holes over the screws, but may try something instead of the flour next time.

I'm using 1lb EPS for a couple of boards, so I'm going to add either wood or high density PU foam under the lamination and sink the boxes into that. In the past I've broken the side glassed on fins and have delaminated the glass under others so I guess I am pretty hard on the side fins.

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Probox-Larry's picture
Joined: 05/24/2007

Wanted to share a simple way of picking the right fin by looking at the machine base of the fin. The reason for the difference in lay-ups is overses companies can not foil a fin right by hand, so they CNC cut which is why they use a smaller oz class which the CNC cutter can cut. But neglct to tell you it's heavier and stiffer flex which effects the preformance of the fin.

Fin Structure from Overseas in Black and here by Larry Allison in clear. These 2 fins are same outline but come from 2 different location. The black fin is made up using a 4or 5 oz fiberglass (small square looking) weighing 12 ozs, the one by Larry Allison is made up using a 7 1/2 oz fiberglass (larger square looking) weighing 9 ozs. Not only is the weight different but so is the flex, the black overseas fin is stiffer flex lack of projection hard to turn. The Larry Allison flex has more twang with a "S" flex with good projection and easy to turn. Next time someone compares weight makes sure you are comparing apples to apples! Look at the base of your fiberglass fin next time and notice the square size which is the weave, small square is heavy and big square is light!

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Probox-Larry's picture
Joined: 05/24/2007
fins and ,

  WHAT do you feel with be the next major breakthrough in fin design[s] , in the future ?

  cheers

  ben

- See more at: http://www.swaylocks.com/forums/shapers-hotseat-larry-allison-aka-probox...

Answer : Ben the answer depends on what Industry you are referring to Surf Industry or Sup Industry. The Surf Industry has gone backwards where corporate companies are so busy trying to change the surf history to legitimize them selfs. The Sup Industry has part of that corporate makeup but also has a new cutting edge side pushing forward, which you can see in some of my Sup Fins designs, http://www.standupfinsbylarryallison.blogspot.com/ 

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sharkcountry's picture
Joined: 03/25/2006

Larry do you have an online site where you show the different fin models you sell?

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magentawave's picture
Joined: 08/12/2009

Larry

That's really interesting about how heavier cloth produces a better flex.

1) How many layers of 7.5 oz cloth do you use for your fins that go into a Probox box? (thrusters, quads, twins)

2) And how many layers of 7.5 oz do you use for your single fins?

3) Do you always use E cloth with polyester resin?

4) What do you think about the flex in all these honeycomb fins verses solid fiberglass?

Thanks.

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Huck's picture
Joined: 12/07/2009

There is so much hype, smoke, and mirrors out there on the subject of fin design - is there a website, book, or other source you can recommend for understanding different fin designs and how they affect performance?

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SMR Fin Technology's picture
Joined: 09/03/2016

Agreed Huck, the basics of fin design are often repeated but is there a more definitive explanation of fin design available ? Larry  would be the go to guy for this ?

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johnmellor's picture
Joined: 03/17/2004

Question for Larry or ?

If the 7.5 OZ lay-ups are lighter, and I am assuming that the claim is accurate and in fact comparing equal fiber/fabric ratio, does going with even heavier cloth extend this advantage?

I.E. does 10 OZ cloth offer and avantage over 7.5 OZ cloth in regard to weight or flex properties?

I'm assuming that at some point, it is a matter of diminishing returns due to the texture/3-D effect of the weave... like maybe 7.5 is the Goldilocks answer.

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