the old man and the sea

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Huck's picture
Joined: 12/07/2009

Just thought I'd post some ruminations here, as I contemplate my next boards.  I'm a backyarder all the way, have pretty much only ever made boards for myself. 

Living in southern California, I typically surf crowded conditions.

As I age, it makes sense for me to concentrate on boards that enhance, and maybe prolong, my surfing experience for the remainder of my good surfing years.

As a result, I'm interested in making good, solid, reliable boards that are easy to catch waves with - something that paddles like a racing scull, trims like a lear jet, and corners like a Porsche, haha.

Love to hear any input, thoughts or ideas, thanks for reading. 

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mattwho's picture
Joined: 05/12/2014

Eh Huck!

Know what you are talking about.

A few things...

I feel your pain

We all have to consider, or analyze our blessings!

Rejoice in the fact that you are out there and are able.

You do surf very crowded spots

And I know “it’s that or nothing.

Although not the same today

I would hit Zuma at dawn or maybe Secos or Zero’s

Just a though!

We need to collaborate!

A got an 8-8 up for test rides…

Side note here, I have been hawking’ the blank catalog

Just trying to find a blank with enough volume to net a

Jee, 9-4?

Frankly I have had it with the “Queen Mary” (that 10-6).

Just too much trying to get out on the better days!

Like you losing some weight and, ha getting in shape.

I’ve resurrected my favorite LB 9-0 and BTW the “mother”

Of these newer LBs.

This concept is based on an known HP outline

using the MP John Peck penetrator rocker, i.e low entry, kicked tail.

with Dbl concave and quads.

(i really, really want one)

If you really want a “test rider” well “I’m your Huckleberry”!

Lastly

Making boards of the public

and test riders is

A thankless job.

You put in your best effort

And rarely does the public call and rant.

Test riders?

Shit! I feel like I am cross examining the defendant

And really grilling ‘em for info!

Count your blessings

Have you ever done EPS?

As I kind of tapped out on the PU Blanks…

Except the 9-9 B

I’ve used it before but for my fat ass?

Owe! “Tights alright”

Here are some shots of this concept.

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I would rather be someone's shot of whiskey, than everyone's cup of tea.

www.mattysurfboards.com

Huck's picture
Joined: 12/07/2009

Hey Mattwho thanks for the response!

That board is awesome!  Looks great, and quad too.  Is that the one you're calling Queen Mary?  Funny.

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mattwho's picture
Joined: 05/12/2014

Nice to hear from you!

EZ on those fingers, eh!

Naw the "Queen Mary" was the log I rode for our one and only surf!

10-6 massive Yater spoon job! pix...LOL

Ya know something?

In reading your response...

A horrible remembrance came rushing back!

Understand, I feel we, ah, or at least me

Go through Nazi's I'm 63 and have had at least 6 and working' on the next.

Nazi? "an unrelenting search in seeking the best surf and surfing as best you can"

I can remember an after work session at 3rd point.

Duking it out over insiders!

And at least once going home wave less!!!

That whole Malibu late 70's phase comes back to me

As I'm on a big lable and always looking at Sarlo’s dayglow ass in front of me!

Many of moonlight sessions @ 3rd, shit I could surf it blindfolded>>>

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I would rather be someone's shot of whiskey, than everyone's cup of tea.

www.mattysurfboards.com

Huck's picture
Joined: 12/07/2009

Funny again.  Yah, I've had the zero wave count too, so frustrating.

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mattwho's picture
Joined: 05/12/2014

Eh!

You got me fired up!

Just finishing 2 new stubbies

and fun to run in and see you have responded!

eh, better than textin'!

Crowds!  I just lose it with the chumps!

I use to surf Cardiff reef a lot as a young man

my last impression was...

After slipping into the pack.

And I'm looking lefts.

So sitting on the "edge" one comes they all back off I'm gone!

Lucky to get a few lip bashes in down the line...

Otherwise...

SHUT OUT...

Yeah I got some more...

Malibu?

Shit I gave up in my 30's!

I couldn't have a session long enough to get respect.

Want to hear a good one?

The "Ranch" I still get to surf it

but it is way more crowded.

Let’s see, 

got to be jezz, I guess 93

I get the call

be here at 4:30!

Oh...

Bring all your weapons!!!

The best wave outside of Cojo is Rights

and Rights it is....

About 3 sessions

only a few gross drop in's.

By #4 I'm pissed!

"Wayne the pain" gets in my face

"Hey man I saw you try to kick out on my buddy!"\

and now you just tried it on me!

I paddled up on his deck

and politely told him "your buddy I respect, I just showed him color"

(he needed to know that shoulder hopping 12+ is not acceptable)

And as for you!

 Wayne I am trying to kill you!

About that time I see Kennedy coming like a freight train!

KAPOW!

Wayne's screaming' "Kennedy you touch me

I'll own you!"

Glen let him go.

No more drop ins!

Here's to clincher!

We come in an here is Ray Kunze (the real Malibu Enforcer) AKA Ranch guard.

And he calmly asks Glen "why didn't you kill him?"

Starts to walk away

turns and sez

I wouldn't have seen nothing!

I'm always the guy furthest up

Ah, whether I'm too far across the peak of otherwise

I hate dropping in on folk....

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I would rather be someone's shot of whiskey, than everyone's cup of tea.

www.mattysurfboards.com

Huck's picture
Joined: 12/07/2009

Wow, that's crazy

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Surfer O's picture
Joined: 06/05/2014

Hey Huck,

If I lived in your area I would definately be trying to test ride your boards.  Those mid lengths looks sick man.  love the glass jobs too!  I'm sure that anything you decide to do is gonna turn out awesome!

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Huck's picture
Joined: 12/07/2009

Surfer O - thank you!

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mattwho's picture
Joined: 05/12/2014

Yo Huck,

Just on a mission with making myself a new stick...

Finally (I think 4 now) found a blank that has volume

and short, (HA) USB 9-3 AX 

A lot of work losing nose rocker and adding tail rocker.

Got it worked out today.

Came out 9"-1"

Gonna order 2 with triple stringers.

Red foam...

And for once I will not need to make a new template.

I would be honored to make you one.

Uh, RAM board that is...

Again this is my all-time best longboard.

And I cannot take any major credit!

Casey Crystal under influence of "Boy" made it for me as a gift.

Wow! 

I sort of drifted off at my rebirth working on classic outlines

I have templates up the ass (funny never got rid any, smart, eh?)

The Phil Edwards was fun.

The Yater Spoon turned into a series.

With the "Mega Spoon" my last.

Nice ride really.

Positives 

Floats well, wish I was 17 again as I find it embarrassing trying to knee paddle

Uh, so I don’t (in public) I’d never get any waves!

On plane it hauls ass!

Negatives

Try slowing the bitch down!

I was coming in at Emma Wood sat down and layed back! (high tide)

Poor fisherman on the rocks scrambled up the rocks!

Laughing I saved it!

Lastly the “Hips” classic

restrictive to quick and down the line type turns I was used to.

For now just have to nurse my turns.

That alone drives me.

Just need to create a geriatric High performance LB! 

LOL!

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I would rather be someone's shot of whiskey, than everyone's cup of tea.

www.mattysurfboards.com

Huck's picture
Joined: 12/07/2009

"Geriatric high performance longboard" - that says it all!  

What a great pic of you and your son.

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mattwho's picture
Joined: 05/12/2014

Huck wrote:

"Geriatric high performance longboard" - that says it all!  

What a great pic of you and your son.

I would be nuts to turn that offer down, hope I can pay or trade something back for my own conscience sake, ha. 

Eh,

per your request,

 "My goals are simple, I want a board that paddles like a racing scull, trims like a lear jet, and corners like a Porsche."

We think alike!

I'll say this We all get lucky and get a magic board.

I've rode some and made some.

But back then I was really poor.

I sold 'em for the money as I needed it.

This board was a gift as well as magic and as such

I still have it and it is in my will!

Thinking about it really only have one photo...

"Secret spot" on an unnamed island....

Eh, no problem on the template!

9-1???

There is much more to this concept

So "bone up" on

Morey Pope John Peck Penetrator.

John Peck ( still kickin') AKA "Moses"

If you didnot know also the son of one Gregory Peck!

The guy was so over looked in the old days!

A very, very cool cat.

And he can still shape and surf quite well

It's all about rocker...

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I would rather be someone's shot of whiskey, than everyone's cup of tea.

www.mattysurfboards.com

thrailkill's picture
Joined: 05/07/2004

mattwho wrote:
John Peck......If you didnot know also the son of one Gregory Peck!
   Not so.      Gregory Peck's son,Jonathan, died in 1975.

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Bill Thrailkill SHAPER SINCE 1958
mattwho's picture
Joined: 05/12/2014

thrailkill wrote:

mattwho wrote:
John Peck......If you didnot know also the son of one Gregory Peck!
   Not so.      Gregory Peck's son,Jonathan, died in 1975.

another myth layed to rest...

sorry for any of my misunderstandings.

Still nice to know you dive deep......LOL

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I would rather be someone's shot of whiskey, than everyone's cup of tea.

www.mattysurfboards.com

L.I.T.'s picture
Joined: 10/08/2014

Hi Huck.

First the disclaimer: you and the other, more experienced, denizens of Sway's probably have a better idea of what would work well for you in your next boards than I do.

That being said, I've always been a fan of the work you do for the forum, so if I can I'd like to help out by running a few idea's past you (and anyone else following this thread); if it turns out something from that works out for you, well, bonus!

So, to kick off, there's probably others (as I mentioned earlier)  better positioned than I to advise you; have you had a chat yet to thrailkill and ace for some tips on how to achieve what you're after in your next boards?

I get the impression they've both got bagloads of experience and are also around the same stage of life as yourself, so they seem to me ideally positioned to provide a little guidance on the matter.

To my mind, you seem to be strongly leaning towards mid-length to longboards.

I don't know much about longboards, but here's a few boards/ideas that are more mid-lengthish that might appeal.

1. The Thrailkill OBQ (O.ne B.oard Q.uiver) Twingle (http://www.swaylocks.com/forums/thrailkill-obq). The OP's board was an 8' - not far off your 8'4 "Gold Standard", and it sounds like it paddles in easy, accelerates well with down-the-line stability of a single while also being able to turn hard without any risk of spin-outs. Has some rocker in the nose to handle those straight-down frontside takeoffs of yours as well as pitching surf. The OP sounds like he was a big boy, so if you're smaller than him, it should paddle even better for you. And WideAWAKE's building one now (again an 8 footer) - if he's not too far away from you, it might be worthwhile getting in contact with him and maybe even making the trip to check it out.

2. Retro-fitting a twingle to one of your existing boards (e.g. the "Gold Standard") to keep the speed, but increase the manoeuvrability of it, or building something matching your "Gold Standard" with twingle installed right from the get-go and any other enhancements you think the "Gold Standard" could do with.

Getting a little more performance-oriented now:

3. Greg Webber Diamond (a Flexy Long-Fin Twin+1. See here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=na-sG-Mffz8). Perhaps do something a little longer and thicker than the Greg Webber board (he did say his one is aimed at guys in their 40 and 50's). You may not even need to make a new board for this; just making a set of long flexy twin fins for the side bite positions on the "Gold Standard" along with a flexy single-tab keel fin for its centre finbox might give it all the upgrades you're after.

4. How about a Long-Fin Twin? E.g. something like the Neil Purchase Jr "Duo"; sounds like similiar characteristics to the Twingle (i.e. speed and hold), but with (I guess) even more in the way of manoeuvrability. Here's a review on it (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGxi4-ZMBrs); the presenter "Benny" sounds like he's fairly tall and heavy (about 100kg/200lbs), so if you're lighter, the 6'2" in the review may actually have enough volume to paddle well for you and handle small surf. If not, making something a little longer and thicker to handle those grovelly days might be just the ticket for you.

5. Maybe even something from the Lost "Domesticated" Series  (a set of boards designed by Matt Biolos for the guy who's getting a bit older, slower, heavier and is less fit than he used to be) or maybe even what the boards in that series have evolved to; The Lost "Puddle Jumper". Here's a review on the Puddle Jumper (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-08omZHtHY).

See here for a description of the "Domesticated Series" concept: http://www.lostsurfboards.net/2012/lost-surfboards-presents-the-domesticated-series-introducing-the-couch-potato-and-the-layzboy/

However, there's more to the Domesticated Series than is listed on that webpage, unfortunately there's no single webpage for this series; you'll need to go to the Lost website main page (http://www.lostsurfboards.net/boards/) and scroll down 'til you get to the "OG Domesticated Series" section and click through images of the different designs in the series to view their details.

The other great thing about a Lost board is that they're a production board that are popular world-wide, so there's a good chance you'll be able to beg/borrow/demo one in your local area to see (in action) if something like that will actually work for you.

6. How about a McCoy All-Round Nugget? See here: http://www.mccoysurfboards.com/surfboard-models/nugget-info

The Nug's have a rep as fast down-the-line boards, built to last, TONS of volume in them for their length and width, work as a thruster, but work even better (from what I've read and heard) as a single using the "Gullwing" fin that McCoy makes. I saw a local riding a late 70's/early 80's single fin shortboard at one point and that thing was as loose as any thruster (it sure made me stop and reconsider my impression of single-fins) so McCoy definitely knows how to make a single that's manoeuvrable. You can even get 'em in an 8' length; check this out for reviews on a bunch of Nugget's (including an 8'1") all bought and ridden by one guy (Burnsie): http://oldguysrip.blogspot.com.au/

In fact, have a read of all his reviews on that webpage as he's an older guy and reviews all the board he owns and rides, and he buys shortboards, mid-lengths, longboards, the works.

What's more, the shaper of the Nuggets (Geoff McCoy) would also be around your age bracket, so he'd know from experience what you'd be feeling when you're out in the surf and would be designing boards for himself to deal with that; if you've got the cash and are willing to buy a custom from him over building something yourself, he may well be worth a call/email. If not, he's been making the Nug's since at least the mid-90's (and I think they've been distributed to the U.S. for most of that time), so there's a lot of them out there and (like I said) they're built to last, so there's a good chance you could pick up one used, give it a run and if it works for you, make something similiar with any extra tweaks you think necessary, and if it doesn't work for you, well you can always sell it off without losing much in the way of money along the way.

Now, some of these "performance-oriented" options may not paddle as well as a "racing scull", but I mentioned them more as something to give you a few idea's to play with in coming up with a design for your next boards. If you find they paddle well for you (or at least well enough for you) in the flesh, well, even better!

Anyway, hope this has helped - in any regard, it's given you some web-surfing fodder to keep you out of the missus' hair for a night or two! :)

Cheers!

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Huck's picture
Joined: 12/07/2009

Thanks LIT for the input, and for bringing this thread back up.

I don't really chat with anyone about my planned shapes, other than here on Swaylocks. I like to share what I learn here.

I will check out WideAwake's thread that you reference.

I will check out that Greg Webber Diamond video

I will also look at the Neil Purchase Jr "Duo" .  I'm 5'7" and 175 lbs at present ( trying hard to drop that a bit, ha)

Will also look at the Lost "Domesticated" Series  for the "older, slower, heavier and less fit" surfer, seems like an appropriate description of the relentless effects of aging we're all eventually afflicted with.  Will also look at the "Puddle Jumper".

Quote:
However, there's more to the Domesticated Series than is listed on that webpage, unfortunately there's no single webpage for this series; you'll need to go to the Lost website main page (http://www.lostsurfboards.net/boards/) and scroll down 'til you get to the "OG Domesticated Series" section and click through images of the different designs in the series to view their details.
thanks, I'll check it out.

Would definitely take whatever I could learn from McCoy All-Round Nugget, and will check it out.  Will also look at http://oldguysrip.blogspot.com.au/, hopefully he gives the design details I would need.  I have read and enjoyed Burnsie's work in the past.  

Quote:
the shaper of the Nuggets (Geoff McCoy) would also be around your age bracket, so he'd know from experience what you'd be feeling when you're out in the surf and would be designing boards for himself to deal with that; if you've got the cash and are willing to buy a custom from him over building something yourself, he may well be worth a call/email.
 I am not looking to buy a custom, buying a blank is what I intend to do when I get some scratch!

The "racing scull" comment was in reference to the typically crowded spots I frequent.  I have to get in early, as dropping in later pretty much guarantees at least two snakes on the shoulder dropping in at the same time (at least one on a wavestorm) usually ending in a collision and a "sorry, man".  After a session of too many of those, and not enough decent waves to myself, I kinda give up on shorter boards as viable for my current circumstances.  Not complaining, just saying the way it is.

thanks again!

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Huck's picture
Joined: 12/07/2009

mattwho wrote:
...Just need to create a geriatric High performance LB! 

The reason I like this quote is that once you get past 60, you're on your swan song, your last hurrah.  Not being negative or pessimistic, just stating the fact.  I see a lot of surfers 60 and over, very very few 70 and over, so how many guys who still surf at 60 will lose it during the following decade?  We can push it out of our mind, but it doesn't change the reality.  We can say aging is all in the mind, but like it or not, the body goes through inevitable decline as we age.  I think it should be an important factor when designing boards for the over-60 set.  I see a lot of older guys on boards that I would say are inappropriate for their circumstances, and not getting many waves.  I want to keep getting getting waves and having fun right up to my last wave!

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nomastomas's picture
Joined: 06/23/2004

I turn 68 in a couple of weeks and here’s what I’ve come to accept:
1.  I need more volume than ever. As far as wave-catching goes at a crowded, competitive point-break, volume is the great equalizer. At a certain point, EPS/Epoxy becomes the core/shell of choice, despite its extra cost.
2.  I need more nose rocker than ever. Despite my daily dose of push-ups, sit-ups and stretching, I get to my feet slower than at any other time in my life. Those quick-twitch muscles have gone to the same place as my short-term memory. A little extra nose-rocker buys me the added time I need.
3.  Sometimes, one good wave is enough. Especially on a big, heavy day…nothing wrong with one-and-done. 
4. Tail-V, especially on LBs, is the path to “performance”. Turning ability is the cornerstone of performance by anyone’s standard. Having a shape that turns responsively allows the rider to do more than just trim. 
5.  Sometimes just trimming is all I want to do.
6.  Heavy, wide, single-fin, “old school” logs suck, no matter how “cool” the kids think they are. How did I manage to forget that?
6.  I must focus on my current abilities and disabilities, and shape to that. Doesn’t matter what I use to ride, not 30 yrs ago, not 10yrs ago, not even last year. 
7.  Doesn’t matter how old or how young you are, how well or how poorly you surf, how good your equipment or how bad your equipment is, somebody is probably going to drop in on you. Get over it…. 
8.  Some days, its better to just go fishing. Surfing on small days, weekends, holidays, DOH+ days carry a much higher probability for frustration and disappointment. Don’t need it, don’t want it.

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Huck's picture
Joined: 12/07/2009

Gold!

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mattwho's picture
Joined: 05/12/2014

Like I said....

Moses surfs well

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I would rather be someone's shot of whiskey, than everyone's cup of tea.

www.mattysurfboards.com

L.I.T.'s picture
Joined: 10/08/2014

mattwho wrote:

Like I said.... Moses surfs well

He does indeed - any idea of when that clip was filmed/how old John Peck was at the time?

Notice how lean he is. Not carrying much in the way of excess fat, or even muscle; it's amazing how much difference just losing the fat can make to your performance. Just how much excess weight can slow you down.

Ever tried walking a decent distance along a beach or up a steep hill with a 5kg weight belt strapped on? The extra weight doesn't feel like much when you first strap the belt on (I snorkel/dive a bit with a weight belt and getting to the water often entails a walk over the dunes and along the sand), but once you're well on your way you can't help but notice how much extra effort you're making and how much you're huffin' and puffin' compared to when you were strolling up that same stretch only a few minutes before when you went to check out the conditions in your regular clothes.

At one point I lost a fair bit of weight (mostly in fat) and ended up about the same weight as when I was a teenager. Then I decided to go for a run. When I got to the end of the run I found I'd easily matched (and maybe even bettered by a few seconds) my personal best (PB) time around that course. And I wasn't even pushing hard, I'd just been cruising (as opposed to the time I'd set that previous PB).

What really drove it home for me was that I hadn't been doing a lick of exercise for months - I'd gained a huge difference in "fitness", and it was all down to shedding excess body weight. Thats it. Thats all.

How much did you weigh back when you were in your 20's? Or even back when you were 16? How much do you weigh now (and how much of that would you estimate is body fat)? All that is extra weight you're trying to suddenly shove upright every time you make a takeoff.

nomastomas made the point that despite all the push-ups, sit-ups etc he's doing, he's getting slower to his feet slower than at any other time in his life - how much of that might be due to excess weight? I know I weigh more than I'd like.

To get a bit of an idea of just how much difference that excess weight is making in slowing down your time to your feet, estimate how much that excess weight/bodyfat is.

Then do a few "pop-ups" to mimic getting to your feet on a takeoff. Then strap on a rucksack filled with weights matching the excess weight you think you're carrying (try to keep a fair bit of that weight over your shoulders rather than down at your waist where it's more easily carried), and do a few more "pop-ups" to see how much difference that makes to how quickly you can get to your feet.

Being a split second quicker to your feet can make a big difference when taking off on a surfboard, especially in hollow/pitching waves.

That's just the speed-to-the-feet side of it.

I wouldn't be surprised if excess weight has an effect on the cardio-vascular/paddling side of surfing too; I remember reading a book written by one of the guys who pioneered "Ultra-light" backpacking; he found that for every loss in the weight carried by a backpacker, the difference made to the extra distance that backpacker could now comfortably travel in a day were not simply linear, they were exponential.

'Might make a difference to the length of time/how hard you can comfortably paddle for during a session.

Mind you, I'm not advocating trying to become one of these zero-bodyfat people. That's just not healthy. What's more, if you ever have a serious accident and wind up on a surgeon's table, I've been told that surgeons prefer their patients to have a bit of fat on them compared to none at all; as fat is a relatively easily accessed energy reserve for the human body and when it's trying to deal with the trauma of a serious injury and any resulting surgery, it'll be burning a ton of energy and needs all the help it can get.

Anyway, I've rabbited on for far longer than I'd intended. Apologies for that.

Cheers all!

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L.I.T.'s picture
Joined: 10/08/2014

Huck wrote:

I don't really "chat" with anyone about my planned shapes, other than here on Swaylocks. So I guess we're chatting right now, along with anyone else who cares to join in, ha! I take what I can from the posts of those who's work I admire, but don't really seek to get more than they are willing to reveal online. I like to share what I learn here, and am not seeking proprietary or "secret" information, i.e. I'm not trying to get special insights that I would have to keep secret, to me that is counter to my reason for participating here.

Yep, that's fair enough, and you've been completely upfront about your position on that, so anyone deciding to give you a few pointers will be aware of how any info they provide will be treated, and can provide their guidance accordingly.

I wasn't suggesting anyone give away any deep dark secrets, just (if they felt so inclined), to give you a few pointers to get you heading in the right direction so you can keep enjoying your surfing, and getting the most out of it. Thats all.

Cheers!

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mattwho's picture
Joined: 05/12/2014

“Yep, that's fair enough, and you've been completely upfront about your position on that, so anyone deciding to give you a few pointers will be aware of how any info they provide will be treated, and can provide their guidance accordingly.

I wasn't suggesting anyone give away any deep dark secrets, just (if they felt so inclined), to give you a few pointers to get you heading in the right direction so you can keep enjoying your surfing, and getting the most out of it. Thats all.”

Sorry

But  the comment “anyone give away any deep dark secrets”

Just cut deep.

IMHO…

“There is nothing that has not be tried before”

It is the refinement of an existing idea.

And I might say there are more , eh ideas than I can handle!

So it is selective, my personal objectives (at this time)?

A quiver limited to:

5’-6” mush buster

5’-8” Groveler (currently in final sanding ).

5’ -10” Step up.

6’-0” Semi Gun (still testing, waves permitting)

6’-2” Gun  (still testing, waves permitting)

8’-8”- 10’-0” HPLB.

There is a lot of work there.

But nothing “new”

Just building and testing

Or, an attempt at advancing a design.

It really comes down to this

IF and, really think about this…

The ancients passed down this art

From, lava rock and fire…

Remember to, that surfing was a close knit group.

And a local, could name everyone in the lineup.

Yeah, secrets???

Maybe around the late 30’s

Gard Chapin with maybe the first “S” deck

And Sykes' scarfed nose (more nose rocker in the plank days)

Since the Gidget explosion

I believe things only got worse.

My story is such that I went through the revolution

With enough skill and surfing ability

understand, surfer shapers  are very observant.

And really should be considered spy’s

We see what works and we seek.

So unless you have a patent.

“”Blow it out your ass dude, cuz you work a Hardy’s” Dead Milkmen

BTW this is the Sin Bid.

Down here, exists a different sprit.

Of those willing to Share….

Here is a good spy photo of Skip Frye’s board (@ Huck HA!)

It started my blood pumping, again!

Been working on it since ’12 and getting somewhere!

Jump in I’ll give up what little I know.

There are no problems

Only solutions

Aloha…

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I would rather be someone's shot of whiskey, than everyone's cup of tea.

www.mattysurfboards.com

Huck's picture
Joined: 12/07/2009

Just gathering whatever intel is available through the Swaylocks gang, without asking for anyone's secret sauce. I'm basically just looking for a midlength or longboard good at paddling, trimming, and turning.

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Huck's picture
Joined: 12/07/2009

mattwho wrote:

“There is nothing that has not be tried before”

It is the refinement of an existing idea.

And I might say there are more , eh ideas than I can handle!

...

Just building and testing

Or, an attempt at advancing a design.

It really comes down to this

IF and, really think about this…

The ancients passed down this art

From, lava rock and fire…

Remember to, that surfing was a close knit group.

And a local, could name everyone in the lineup.

Yeah, secrets???

Maybe around the late 30’s

Gard Chapin with maybe the first “S” deck

And Sykes' scarfed nose (more nose rocker in the plank days)

Since the Gidget explosion

I believe things only got worse.

My story is such that I went through the revolution

With enough skill and surfing ability

understand, surfer shapers  are very observant.

And really should be considered spy’s

We see what works and we seek.

So unless you have a patent...


Hey ya mattwho, some food for thought in your cryptic post. I respect anyone's right to share what they feel comfortable sharing, and hold back what they don't feel comfortable sharing.  But I learn from what people share, and that's why I'm here.

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mattwho's picture
Joined: 05/12/2014

Eh,

Nice Huck!

BTW, I mean no disrepect!

My rant was simply "surfing history"

We should never repeat mistakes that we are knowledgeable of.

That said,

Are you aware of how Greg Noll got the formula for foam outta Grubby Clark?

There is nothing new

This shit of robbing stuff has been going on for decades!

Let’s break this down a little.

Local shaper

Custom

for local conditions

and a loyal following.

And the better guys,

well you call it….

Eh, Greg Liddle made my first “Island quiver”

Then, Glen Kennedy.

Oh Shit!

I gave away that I’m “Valley Cowboy” (LMAO)

Any way

That leaves the rest.

The big labels with CNC machines

and all the other bells and whistles

dominate with worldwide wanna be cool

exception for the ones that can surf 'em.

I can only speak for myself….

I come from a time period where

We protested and fought against

“The establishment”

I am not saying that plagiarism is acceptable.

But if there Really was something new

and I saw the big lables concept.

I don't think I would lose any sleep

again that has really not happened,

yet 

But I won't stop snoppin'..

Eh, one of these day's!

But honestly, you know me

I am, old, ugly and crazy.

Maybe, you missed it.

The revolution..

But I can die knowing I was blessed to have gone thru a time in surfing history

In those days, I surfed a “new concept” a least every month

The “Big” guys couldn’t change with the advances.

You know, I bailed in 81, yeah got a real job.

Finally slowed down enough to come back.

Really disappointed.

Real change is what I expected.

Outside of quads and single concaves

Nothing noteworthy had changed

 Let’s see 2012 -1981 = 31 years!

Think about that….

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I would rather be someone's shot of whiskey, than everyone's cup of tea.

www.mattysurfboards.com

Huck's picture
Joined: 12/07/2009

That's an interesting history and perspective!

I did kinda miss it, as you say.

Once the corporate interests took over the media, contests, and mass production of boards, it was kind of a foregone conclusion IMO that stagnation would follow. It is what it is, at least surfing itself is still fun!

I made a custom gun for a workmate, tried to get out of it but he begged and hounded me until I gave in. To hedge his bet he also ordered a custom from Glen - guess who's template Glen stole for his shape! Yah, I'll never get that template back lol. The guy I made the board for said it worked great, but he kinda soured on the board after a Swaylocks "bro" talked trash on me cuz of where I live.

Anyway, I'm perfectly happy with old school shapes, I try to look at shapes by function, not by era or fashion. If a shape works well for the guy riding it, all good, don't care of its in style, out of style, or made by a guy in timbucktoo. I do favor the small underground hand shaper, always, cuz like u I'm skeptical of "the man". Hah!

carry on!

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thrailkill's picture
Joined: 05/07/2004

Huck wrote:
  To hedge his bet he also ordered a custom from Glen - guess who's template Glen stole for his shape! Yah, I'll never get that template back....
Is that the GUN TEMPLATE that I think it is?

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Bill Thrailkill SHAPER SINCE 1958
Huck's picture
Joined: 12/07/2009

thrailkill wrote:
Is that the GUN TEMPLATE that I think it is?

Probably not. It was a 10-6 plan shape I designed, with a narrow pulled in diamond tail. My friend had it, and showed it to Glen, who commented "he nailed it!" Glen used it to make his gun, I was frankly honored, but my friend said I'll probably never get it back, and I haven't. I have a photo of the two guns side by side, will post it up when I get a chance.

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thrailkill's picture
Joined: 05/07/2004

Huck wrote:
Probably not. It was a 10-6 plan shape I designed...
Whew !    Thank you.

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Bill Thrailkill SHAPER SINCE 1958
mattwho's picture
Joined: 05/12/2014

Yeah,

the soft underbelly of Sway's

Hey I didn't totally mean there was noting really noteworty...

Asym's and finless designs seem to have made progress

again the development of existing ideas.

Now back to you...

And all respect!

You under estimate yourself!

I KNOW if you put your mind to it

You can do a lot more than you think.

Hey in considering your Hanalei charger experience.

Really take it as a complement!

Maybe "they should have been up front"

But "that's life" F. Sinatra.

I can sort'a recall an old "story"

In the day of Pat Curren developing the big wave board (he was and is the man).

I believe it was Doyle or Del Canon that got Pat to skeetch and outline on the sidewalk outside his shop.

And came back an "lifted" it.

Don't know if any of it is really ture

but that's the influance I have always been under.

That was a long time ago

right or wrong

those poor guys were riding hotdog boards in heavy surf.

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I would rather be someone's shot of whiskey, than everyone's cup of tea.

www.mattysurfboards.com

Huck's picture
Joined: 12/07/2009

there is a restaurant near my house that plays old surf videos constantly  - I go there a lot, love the old surf flicks. But you're right, that really had to fight their equipment, ballsy to even paddle out on those big heavy logs with no rocker!

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mattwho's picture
Joined: 05/12/2014

Blessed to have a "mate" like you.

Viva la révolution souterrain

or viva the underground revolution!

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I would rather be someone's shot of whiskey, than everyone's cup of tea.

www.mattysurfboards.com

Huck's picture
Joined: 12/07/2009

Hey Bill, per your earlier question, here is the picture of the guns I promised, that's mine on the right, Glen's on the left.  Made for a workmate's Hanalei trip.

Was told that mine performed very well, & best tube ride of the trip was on mine.  Windy days he took Glen's board out, as it was glassed with poly resin and was quite a bit heavier.  I glassed mine with epoxy, and kept the glassing schedule light as requested, so it was the go-to on glassy days.  

I used the 10-6A Rawson blank, per Robbie Dick's recommendation - he said you don't have to do a whole lot of shaping with that blank, and I didn't.  Its been a couple years, but IIRC I had put some panel V in the nose, with a small amount through the middle, and then a bit more out the back.  Down rails (but not hard down), with a tuck and an edge.  Hard down in the tail area.  

I kept my tail really pulled in, I think about 4" or 5" at the very back.  Foiled out at the nose and tail, but a lot of volume in the middle, more than I would normally have left in, but that was another request.  He wanted a boatload of foam, for paddling. 

Anyway, I was tickled pink to get a good ride report.

Oh yeah, and I got this shot of him riding it at Campus Point after he got back from Hanalei.

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Huck's picture
Joined: 12/07/2009

OK, enough of that.  Getting back now to my meandering thoughts on surfboard design regarding midlengths.  An older guy who can ride a longboard chooses to ride a midlength for one reason that I can see: because he wants to get closer to shortboard performance (than the longboard allows, and he can't ride shortboards anymore).  The kids may ride them for the cool retro look, or maybe just to up the wave count.

At any rate, to me this is the crux of midlength design: to get closer to shortboard performance, with more paddling and stability that you get with a shortboard.  By stability I mean that extra second for the popup that now goes just a little slower than it once did.  Little boards, you just gotta pop up and go, you don't do a push up and kinda lean the board down the line for a second, then stand up.  A longboard you can.  A midlength you can, and I like that.

Now, these issues could also be addressed with a longboard that has some secret sauce that allows it to turn better than average, and maybe handle critical drops a little better than average.  In other words, a standard longboard is great for paddling around, catching waves, trimming in the slot, they turn back when needed, overall good stuff for us older guys.  But when the waves pick up a little, maybe the drops get a little sucked out, a little steep and pitchy, the longboard isn't working so great anymore.  Or when you have some really down the line sections to get around, the longboard doesn't fly around them to get back to the face quite as well as shorter boards.  If you want to pump for speed, longboard isn't the right board.  And maybe you just want to have a little more flexibility to turn and move around on the face.  Longboard doesn't have that ability like a shorter board does.

Anyway, back to midlengths.  It seems that you could take much of what is being done in the "groveler" category of shortboards, and apply it to midlength design.  What comes to mind is wider tails, wider noses, down rails or soft rails with a tuck, double concaves in the fin area.  There is an awful lot I don't know here, be interested what others say.  

Also, the alternative and retro shapes some guys are now doing can be translated into midlengths, in fact some of those already are midlength.  The older guy just needs a little longer midlength than the hipsters do, IMO (my "golden standard" isn't a true longboard at 8-4 by 21, but its pushing the envelope of what could be called a midlength).  I think that's what LITs suggestions were angled at, looking at the groveler type boards for design ideas.

And that's kind of where I'm at right now, looking for a performance type longboard that is looser faster and handles drops better than a Malibu type longboard, or a midlength that I can tool around the lineup easily, get in early, but has some turning mojo and some down the line speed that your average "fun board" or mini-mal doesn't.  This is where I think modifications on my golden standard should be aimed.

I have a couple long 8' midlengths that I used some shortboard design on (in other words, not a mini-longboard), and kept a lot of foam in them.  I might have left a bit too much foam.  But maybe not - I was losing weight for awhile, now I've hit a plateu, so maybe I need to break those boards out of mothballs and see how I feel now about the increased volume / foam.  Hard to do when I'm having so much fun on my "golden standard"!  Even harder to paddle that 6' 7" stubby out, I have so little confidence on that thing, but every go out I get at least one wave, or one section, that shows me a little promise of what it could do if I could get it wired.  Turns on a dime.  Squirts around sections.  But man, I really miss the length when I'm moving around the lineup, or scratching to get in a wave with 3 other guys, and hoping to be the first up and going.

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mattwho's picture
Joined: 05/12/2014

Huck wrote:

OK, enough of that.  Getting back now to my meandering thoughts on surfboard design regarding midlengths.  An older guy who can ride a longboard chooses to ride a midlength for one reason that I can see: because he wants to get closer to shortboard performance (than the longboard allows, and he can't ride shortboards anymore).  The kids may ride them for the cool retro look, or maybe just to up the wave count.

At any rate, to me this is the crux of midlength design: to get closer to shortboard performance, with more paddling and stability that you get with a shortboard.  By stability I mean that extra second for the popup that now goes just a little slower than it once did.  Little boards, you just gotta pop up and go, you don't do a push up and kinda lean the board down the line for a second, then stand up.  A longboard you can.  A midlength you can, and I like that.

Now, these issues could also be addressed with a longboard that has some secret sauce that allows it to turn better than average, and maybe handle critical drops a little better than average.  In other words, a standard longboard is great for paddling around, catching waves, trimming in the slot, they turn back when needed, overall good stuff for us older guys.  But when the waves pick up a little, maybe the drops get a little sucked out, a little steep and pitchy, the longboard isn't working so great anymore.  Or when you have some really down the line sections to get around, the longboard doesn't fly around them to get back to the face quite as well as shorter boards.  If you want to pump for speed, longboard isn't the right board.  And maybe you just want to have a little more flexibility to turn and move around on the face.  Longboard doesn't have that ability like a shorter board does.

Anyway, back to midlengths.  It seems that you could take much of what is being done in the "groveler" category of shortboards, and apply it to midlength design.  What comes to mind is wider tails, wider noses, down rails or soft rails with a tuck, double concaves in the fin area.  There is an awful lot I don't know here, be interested what others say.  

Also, the alternative and retro shapes some guys are now doing can be translated into midlengths, in fact some of those already are midlength.  The older guy just needs a little longer midlength than the hipsters do, IMO (my "golden standard" isn't a true longboard at 8-4 by 21, but its pushing the envelope of what could be called a midlength).  I think that's what LITs suggestions were angled at, looking at the groveler type boards for design ideas.

And that's kind of where I'm at right now, looking for a performance type longboard that is looser faster and handles drops better than a Malibu type longboard, or a midlength that I can tool around the lineup easily, get in early, but has some turning mojo and some down the line speed that your average "fun board" or mini-mal doesn't.  This is where I think modifications on my golden standard should be aimed.

I have a couple long 8' midlengths that I used some shortboard design on (in other words, not a mini-longboard), and kept a lot of foam in them.  I might have left a bit too much foam.  But maybe not - I was losing weight for awhile, now I've hit a plateu, so maybe I need to break those boards out of mothballs and see how I feel now about the increased volume / foam.  Hard to do when I'm having so much fun on my "golden standard"!  Even harder to paddle that 6' 7" stubby out, I have so little confidence on that thing, but every go out I get at least one wave, or one section, that shows me a little promise of what it could do if I could get it wired.  Turns on a dime.  Squirts around sections.  But man, I really miss the length when I'm moving around the lineup, or scratching to get in a wave with 3 other guys, and hoping to be the first up and going.

Wow!

A Novel.

I love surfing

it has been my life since I was twelve

and baseball was something I did before.

I have never stopped surfing

eh, my body has!

The first to go was Large waves

my last BW board was a 8-6 x 23 Rusty Island

I tell you what

and you already know the spring has sprung.

I'd paddle like a madman and start getting up...

The first few years I got away with it 

and a lot of "pit stops".

Then comes the late drops and saves.

Then you just get pitched more often than not.

Just hate being bounced of the bottom.

Shit I broke 3 ribs at the beach pad

like a wounded dog..

 I quit.

Bigger waves?

Aloha!

Tore a hole in me selling my board, but it went to a good home.

I just went surfing

I was happy with a 9-0 HPLB

But then I needed "help"

or paddle power.

I love Skip Frye.

And the glider...

One of the first (prior to Sway's) was a 3 stringer "Phil Edwards" only

10-6! 

Worked well, I became 

just a little silly with it

and scared myself straight!

Grabbed a OH left on it and tried to pull in

And OMG!

I’m doing a Stuka and all I can see is board

And I am going to die, 10-6!

Eh!

I am truly blessed!

The fins broke loose and I saved it

And I really didn’t “soil my suit”!

That my son …

Started my quest

Still have the Queen Mary

But planning on something of which you just

Eh, let’s say “touched on”

Maybe not so "down the line ripper"

non the less some kind of  geriatric high performance what ever.

Don't over look the "Contender"!

I already have my concept for a HPLB of my old ass...

From a mush of testing by Boy and my experience

So

#1 Paddle

            Float or volume (in the right places)

            Entry rocker.

#2 Wave entry

#3 performance.

Ultimately it is a give and take dilemma.

Here is a start for you

9-3AX.

Oh!

Speaking of "old men" being SLOW to thier feet

M. Purpus Saturday @ Hermosa contest

Riding a Jacobs and rocking the house...

Aloha Pal…

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I would rather be someone's shot of whiskey, than everyone's cup of tea.

www.mattysurfboards.com

Huck's picture
Joined: 12/07/2009

Going with my original premise of the golden standard, could a contender be made from the us blanks. 8-4?

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mattwho's picture
Joined: 05/12/2014

Huck wrote:

Going with my original premise of the golden standard, could a contender be made from the us blanks. 8-4?

You are on it!

the 8-4 SP yeah? 

Great choice,

BTW, the Contender was from 7-4 SP

You do know about the 8-4 SPX ?

Love that "X"  (really considered it)

Alot more than the "Big Guy"shapes...

Have fun and keep the stoke....

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I would rather be someone's shot of whiskey, than everyone's cup of tea.

www.mattysurfboards.com

Huck's picture
Joined: 12/07/2009

Man, Matty. You're way more hardcore than me! But I was away from surfing for a lot of years, so I'm determined to make the best of what waves I can still get at my age. Surfing is kind of a tonic for the downers of life, if you keep it fun and positive.

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mattwho's picture
Joined: 05/12/2014

Oh,

forgive me as I am a little like

"Columbo"

I mean 

ah, just one thing before I go.

I been thinking about the nose on the "Contender" 

wanna pull it in and I have just the thing.

I layed it out origionally but thought is was a sin to waste foam.

So I am back to where I was?

Eh take a break and enjoy the video!

LOL

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I would rather be someone's shot of whiskey, than everyone's cup of tea.

www.mattysurfboards.com

johnmellor's picture
Joined: 03/17/2004

I've been following this thread since before it got sent to the sin bin.  Lots of good stuff in here!  

I'm afraid I have a bit of a quibble with Huck over his concept of a shortboard making it around sections easier than a longer board.  My experience has been just the opposite.  With a flatter tail bottom that is wide enough and contoured enough to generate some 'oomph', a longboard can glide around sections quite easily.

On a board made for a friend a few years back, we went for a 17" wide tail.  The rails in back were down with an edge and we went with a 2+1 fin setup.  The tail looked essentially similar to one of Matt's.  

At the Big Sur campout this past weekend, some of us discussed the "new" 14" tail being closer to 17" - especially on, but not necessarily limited to, grovelers.  

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Huck's picture
Joined: 12/07/2009

Hey John maybe that's just a personal issue, rather than a fair generalization, i.e. I have a harder time getting around sections on a longboard, personally.  That's one of the things I like about riding my shorter (midlength) boards, vs. riding my longboard.  Maybe I need to try some different fins, like the one in the photo?  What longboard fin do you recommend for projection in a turn?

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johnmellor's picture
Joined: 03/17/2004

Hi Huck -

My general theory is something with a wide base and/or longer trailing tip.  In actual practice there is a point of diminishing returns where you'll be 'dragging skeg.'

I'm brainstorming something a little kinky right now... an asymmetrically foiled single with a bit of toe-in - obviously for a wave with a consistent directional breaking pattern, a right point for example.

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Huck's picture
Joined: 12/07/2009

haha, that sounds wild!  I probably should try some different fins, and see what happens.  I have avoided that for the most part, as fins can be pretty expensive, I can almost buy a blank for the cost of some fins.  And you know, I'm itching to get another blank or two ...or three...  :-)

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Huck's picture
Joined: 12/07/2009

nomastomas wrote:
I turn 68 in a couple of weeks and here’s what I’ve come to accept:
1.  I need more volume than ever. As far as wave-catching goes at a crowded, competitive point-break, volume is the great equalizer. At a certain point, EPS/Epoxy becomes the core/shell of choice, despite its extra cost.
2.  I need more nose rocker than ever. Despite my daily dose of push-ups, sit-ups and stretching, I get to my feet slower than at any other time in my life. Those quick-twitch muscles have gone to the same place as my short-term memory. A little extra nose-rocker buys me the added time I need.
3.  Sometimes, one good wave is enough. Especially on a big, heavy day…nothing wrong with one-and-done. 
4. Tail-V, especially on LBs, is the path to “performance”. Turning ability is the cornerstone of performance by anyone’s standard. Having a shape that turns responsively allows the rider to do more than just trim. 
5.  Sometimes just trimming is all I want to do.
6.  Heavy, wide, single-fin, “old school” logs suck, no matter how “cool” the kids think they are. How did I manage to forget that?
6.  I must focus on my current abilities and disabilities, and shape to that. Doesn’t matter what I use to ride, not 30 yrs ago, not 10yrs ago, not even last year. 
7.  Doesn’t matter how old or how young you are, how well or how poorly you surf, how good your equipment or how bad your equipment is, somebody is probably going to drop in on you. Get over it…. 
8.  Some days, its better to just go fishing. Surfing on small days, weekends, holidays, DOH+ days carry a much higher probability for frustration and disappointment. Don’t need it, don’t want it.

So a bit more meditating and reflecting, especially on this point: " I need more volume than ever. As far as wave-catching goes at a crowded, competitive point-break, volume is the great equalizer".

I started off on my volume quest with the 9' version of the Golden Standard, with fatter rails, no pinched rails like the GS.  A foot more in length, 2" more width, and volume all the way out to the rails.  I liked it, still do, its one of my quiver favorites.

Then came a high volume board that I called the Banana Boat.  I liked it, but in truth, haven't spent much time on it (I have so many boards).  Nevertheless, I figured if some is good, more is better, so next I went with a super thick super high volume winged swallowtail ("the Wing Squad") based roughly on the Banana Boat, but with pulled in  nose and different tail.  Both quads. 

The Banana Boat was based somewhat on Tom Mahady's "lineup killer".  The Wing Squad ended up taking notes from the Rusty Big Cat, although my shape is my own.  And maybe a nod to Joe Blair for emboldening me to go with extreme volume.

In a sense, the Wing Squad is a concept board, taking certain ideas to an extreme, to see what they yield.  The idea is an 8' x 22.75" board, nearly a longboard at that size, and then making it very thick, high volume, so in effect, it has the volume of a longboard.  But with a pulled in nose that is definitely not a longboard nose, and an overall template more in line with a smaller performance oriented board.  I guess the concept might be called a sort of a longboard that's not a longboard, or maybe a high performance longboard in disguise.

To get all that volume, I had to make some steep rails, which were part of the concept.  Thick board (3.75"!), not a lot of dome, volume all the way out, then a real steep curved bevel down at the rails, to a small radius and tuck.  A big guy might be able to bury a rail with this board, I don't think I could.  You have to hold the board to appreciate how extreme the thickness and rails are, pictures don't tell the whole story.  You wrap your hands around the rail and there's just so much foam there.  Like I say, feels like an SUP rail.

So its made to be a paddler, get up on plane quick, and hopefully be faster than a longboard.  I wanted this thing to be almost like a small SUP, and it is.  Riding it again the past two days (small waves), I'm convinced that the concept is working, even 'tho there is room for improvement.

I really can catch waves a lot easier with all that foam, and the wide tail.  The nose makes steep or late drops easier than on a longboard.  The board is fast, and more maneuverable than my single fin longboard.  I'm still learning how to ride it, and how to turn it

Being my first winged surfboard, I was skeptical of the "pivot point" hype regarding the wings, but they do seem to aid in turning.  Its an "outside the box" shape that takes a bit of getting used to.  Part of the problem for me is that I have to remember to walk the board like a longboard, its too much foam to stay in one place on the board.

So I'm thinking, on one of my iterations, to maybe mix some of these design features in with the Golden Standard.  Lower the volume (thickness) to somewhere between the two, make the board a little narrower than the 22.75" of the Wing Squad, a little wider than the 21" of the GS, keep the pulled in nose, wide tail with wings and swallowtail, keep the rails and bottom shape, keep the quad setup.

I'm going to conclude this ramble by saying that one of the mysteries is that at 2.75" thick my 8-4 paddles and catches waves just as well as my thicker boards, and as well as the nine foot version of itself.  But then, that's subjective, isn't it?

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mattwho's picture
Joined: 05/12/2014

Huck,

Absolutely agree with all you stated.

Volume, rocker and outline.

IMHO both the wing squad and the Gold standard

Through me into condendrum as well.

I lean towards the WS @ 8ft.

The pulled in nose and wings are “Da Kine”

BTW, what is your take on the quads???

I am interested because

Well quads although an aged concept

Is worthy of pursuit.

In your correspondence with Mellnor

I noted your wish to “project “or make a “down the line” point surf type turn.

Most folk (truster,etc.) use a cant @ 5 deg

Which as a blend in the rule I live by more cant more vertical and vise versa

Beach breaks 6-9

Point 4-6

Any help?

Quite complex

Quads, that is

“So I'm thinking, on one of my iterations, to maybe mix some of these design features in with the Golden Standard.  Lower the volume (thickness) to somewhere between the two, make the board a little narrower than the 22.75" of the Wing Squad, a little wider than the 21" of the GS, keep the pulled in nose, wide tail with wings and swallowtail, keep the rails and bottom shape, keep the quad setup.

I'm going to conclude this ramble by saying that one of the mysteries of the Golden Standard is that at 2.75" thick it paddles just as well and catches waves just as well as all the high volume boards, and as well as the nine foot version of itself.  But then, that's subjective, isn't it?”

You and I seek the same goal

Plainly

Catch wave early (volume)

Make the drop (pulled in nose and rocker) with a few popping noises coming from old bones.

And last performance.

The last is almost “a bridge too far”

By that I mean

How  in the Hell do you get volume and still have a rail that works?

As you no doubt know the flow of water over the rail is very important for speed and performance.

I believe Brewer said it

Basically the best rail is equal all the way ‘round.

Eh, I could be wrong.

But “back in the early 68-70 underground”

I learned a few weird ideas one that really worked was

The Razorblade.

Shape in the bottom (flat)

Only instead of banding

Just take a hand saw and cut

From scribed line (rail) to top of stringer.

Came out with a 1//2” rail all the way around.

Single fin W.A.V.E. set days

Single fin with Greenough stage 3 fin

One wicked ass rides made 3 in my Pop’s garage!

BTW prior to MP’s “Camel” and very painful to paddle…

Sorry now I’m rambling!

Point is RAILS.

The blank I am looking at is close to 4” thick @ 9-3

Yeah, plenty of float!

Ya know me and this board will be a single concave quad.

Need a laugh?

The only quad I have ridden is my Kneeboard.

Which in time “Sonny”

Well, I just kept getting stuck in that position

In challenging surf, that is.

Back to the rail…

A quest……

Still thinking of how to possibly find a solution.

Running on now…

I’ll close with a spy shot of Mere Made concept…

Ah, love her

Maybe just the rail….

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I would rather be someone's shot of whiskey, than everyone's cup of tea.

www.mattysurfboards.com

johnmellor's picture
Joined: 03/17/2004

Hi Matt -

That one looks a bit like my friend Taylor's board...

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mattwho's picture
Joined: 05/12/2014

Nice John!

Taylor is pushing the limits....

For some reason that idea brought up memories…

LOL...

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I would rather be someone's shot of whiskey, than everyone's cup of tea.

www.mattysurfboards.com

Huck's picture
Joined: 12/07/2009

OK Matty, here's what I'm currently thinking: People tend to be afraid of volume.  Volume is a friend to the paddler, but dealing with it on the wave face, or caught inside on a set, it can seem bulky or clunky and scary.  I think its the main detraction for people who hate riding longboards.  I think you have to learn to appreciate it, learn to manage it in the lineup.  I hear of people getting shoulder injuries from trying to duck dive a longboard, or talking about the board being an aircraft carrier, etc.

My point of view is that volume is something you have to work at to master it, so to speak.  No you can't duckdive like a glass slipper, you have to find ways of getting through the waves without hurting yourself, we did it back in the pre-leash days, and Derek Hynd just uses his double-leash when he's paddling through the big soups.  I used to feel the same as everyone else, but now you could say I have become a student of volume, learning to not hate it or be afraid of it, and I don't believe a high volume board has to be an aircraft carrier.

Volume is no easy feat for the shaper, either, packing that extra foam into a board will challenge your shaping skills, I discovered.  You have to re-think your approach to stuff like dome, foil, rails, and blending curves.  Thinner boards are easier to shape, IMO.

Performance is a personal issue, I'm looking for a board that goes (or feels) faster than my longboard, takes late drops better, turns easier, etc.  So I guess performance may be difficult once you add volume, but for my needs, its not unattainable.

Now you mention the rails in this context, i.e. "How in the Hell do you get volume and still have a rail that works?"  Well, I think you have to work with the physics of what you have, and what's possible.  In this regard, I think SUPs have kinda re-defined what we once thought would and wouldn't work on a wave.  I'm not talking about the kooks, I'm talking about the young bucks you see on 7' - 8' SUPs that rip. They're doing stuff with high volume, thick rail boards, that might not be up to Kelly or Mick's performance level, but its way beyond what the average longboarder is doing, and way beyond what I can do on my longboard.

So I don't get psyched out by thick rails, I just realize that thick rails can be made to work well enough if the rest of the design elements come together.

The rail on the WS is thick, but its similar to a rail I've seen on some old Brewer boards, I kinda got my inspiration from that.  My deck is pretty flat through the middle, there is some dome, but its not an even curve peaking at the stringer, its more like a curve from the rail to a third of the way to the stringer, then flat the other 2/3rds in.  And the rail is working for me, had the board out again today and there was a little more size, maybe 4-5' and glassy, and lo and behold the bigger the face, the better that rail was working.  So far so good, maybe just got lucky on a few waves today, but I'm becoming more optimistic about this board every time I take it out.

Plus, I think a lot of rail issues are related to the foil also, if the fat rail thins in the nose and tail, and you're turning from the tail, then you really don't have to sink a fat rail to get a decent turn.  Sure, you're not gonna do a spray blasting rail turn like Occy, ha!, but you can still do a good turn, if you get my drift.  It may be that rail fins, like the quad has, are a factor in the fat rail working, you don't have to actually sink the rail to get a good bite, so to speak.

I definitely caught my share of waves, even sitting in the middle of a crowded pack.  I caught waves where I had to paddle to the left trying to catch a right, so I didn't hit the guys sitting RIGHT inside me.  But man, this board is a wave catching machine.  More than once I thought bummer, missed that one, and suddenly, boom - I was in, off and riding!  I heard a long time local, on a potato chip, complaining when I got out - he couldn't get any mojo, and blamed it on the "twenty-seven longboarders going for every wave", but that wasn't a problem for me.

I'm starting to think of the Wing Squad as my secret weapon, because I really get a lot of waves on it, it handles late drops better than any other board I have, and people see it and don't think of it as a longboard, but like I said, its almost a longboard in disguise.  I took a late drop on a close out set wave just because I was tired of waiting, and it was fun!  I wouldn't do that on my other boards.

BTW, my "down the line" question was regarding a single fin, no sidebites, just one, old school, single, fin.  Maybe try a pivot fin, I used to have one I made that I really liked before I broke the tab off.

Regarding quads - I like them!  for me, with the single fin I have to almost plan my turns ahead of time, with the quad I can just sorta react, if that makes sense.

I've built a couple of those raised deck or step deck type boards, they didn't work so well for me, but then I didn't spend a lot of time riding them either.  I guess I could go back and explore that someday, barely scratched the surface, but for now I have come to prefer the aesthetic of just going with a bigger, or thicker board, without the fancy stuff at the rails.  Like I say, my thick rail on the WS is working for me, and there are other ways of thinning the rail a bit if I need to, dome the deck, add a Stewart style bevel, usually with a little forethought you can get a thinner rail on a thicker board if you really want it.  Anyway, I'm trying to keep an open mind, waiting to hear a great ride report from one of those, but not going that direction anymore myself.

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mattwho's picture
Joined: 05/12/2014

Eh Huck,

With you and yeah

I think the SW is worth a little more testing.

In regards to volume…

Well…

There are more ways the one “to skin a cat”

Width is one.

I am working on strategic placement of volume.

i.e. chest and body mass in prone or paddling positon.

Sometimes you get a little lucky with a domed deck.

BTW this is relevant with SB’s as well.

And have been doing a few 2 band rails with hard tucked edge

Of course thinner In the critical spots (rear or under foot)

Ha Dustin weighs in @ 175#, let’s see 175# on a 5-8?

Volume management 101.

We need to have breakfast at the Vagabond

And talk!

Eh I’ll buy.

Aloha Nui!

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I would rather be someone's shot of whiskey, than everyone's cup of tea.

www.mattysurfboards.com

mattwho's picture
Joined: 05/12/2014

Ya'll

thinking about them there "volume rails"

just in case...

Here are the established ideas

interesting, No?

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I would rather be someone's shot of whiskey, than everyone's cup of tea.

www.mattysurfboards.com

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