the old man and the sea

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johnmellor's picture
Joined: 03/17/2004
Hi Matt - Don't know if you've been to the surf museum down in San Clemente? They have some old Simmons boards among others. Very similar rail contours, and nearly identical to Liddle style rails in every way. I doubt a blind folded person could tell the difference in a rail grab.
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mattwho's picture
Joined: 05/12/2014
Thanks John, gotta go, sometime soon. Can't recall exactly but BS studied marine architecture or the "Hull" long before Greg was a tinkle in Pop's eye! Bob Simmons an icon and we all owe... A very long story, indeed. In the end it was the Chapin garage door company, that gave BS his start. Look up Gard Chapin. Yeah, Mickey Dora's step dad... "Zig zagging" those old redwood balsa glider's. Me thinks "something was going on there at San O, way back....
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I would rather be someone's shot of whiskey, than everyone's cup of tea.

www.mattysurfboards.com

nomastomas's picture
Joined: 06/23/2004

I like "P" for maximizing volume, while keeping a fairly decent rail thickness. I use it on my mid-size floaters and my belly boards. I used it inadvertently on a longboard about 10 yrs ago, now that I think about it. I hadn't quite mastered blending my rail bands and was shooting for a pinched rail on a 9-6 Phil Edwards template I got from Kawika. Ended up with more of a sloped rail design. That board was one of my all-time favorites and really liked to take a high line on the wave. 

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Huck's picture
Joined: 12/07/2009

The wing squad is a blend of the  bottom half of M and the top half of J

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LiveTheMoment's picture
Joined: 06/27/2014
Really enjoying this thread, although I have just been lurking in the sidelines. Interesting because none of us will stay 'young'forever. It makes me think about what Mr Slater and friends might be riding when they are past 70. Can they stay short? I have to admit that I have a question which is the reason for dipping my feet in. You guys are experienced in mid length boards so where better place to ask. Making a 7' 0" funboard/minimal for a beginner, what kind of nose and tail rocker numbers would you recommend? I value all of my customers even if they can't surf (yet) so I want to get it right. Board in question is 7' 0" x 22" x 3" Thanks LTM
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mattwho's picture
Joined: 05/12/2014

I'll jump in

Check the US Blanks 7-4SP

A natural rocker stock blank

take 2" off the ends and it comes out

ABOUT

N 3" T 2"

And it is thick enough to get her done.

Good basic mini longboard blank.

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I would rather be someone's shot of whiskey, than everyone's cup of tea.

www.mattysurfboards.com

Huck's picture
Joined: 12/07/2009

here is the 8-4 Golden Standard in action.  Was my go-to, but fast being replaced by the Wing Squad, hope to get some shots of the that one too, maybe.

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mattwho's picture
Joined: 05/12/2014

Eh,

Nice.

Really love your expressions of stoke and concern!

Best.

Oh!

One more thing....

"Wounded Gull"

+1

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I would rather be someone's shot of whiskey, than everyone's cup of tea.

www.mattysurfboards.com

Huck's picture
Joined: 12/07/2009

yeah, two broken fingers on right hand, I can really tell, wondered if anyone else would notice

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Huck's picture
Joined: 12/07/2009

LiveTheMoment wrote:
Really enjoying this thread, although I have just been lurking in the sidelines. Interesting because none of us will stay 'young'forever. It makes me think about what Mr Slater and friends might be riding when they are past 70. Can they stay short?

Past 70?  Really?  I doubt it.  But past 60, yes, there are a lot of surfers past 60 who still ride shortboards.  I think a lot of them would do better with a bit more volume, but a lot of guys seem to stick with what has worked for them in the past, and don't question what might work better for them as they age.  

There are a lot of surfers older than 60, very few at age 70, so the decade between 60-70 is the decade, for most of us, we will have to give up surfing.  I say don't get depressed about it, instead, why not squeeze every last drop of fun and stoke out of it!

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Huck's picture
Joined: 12/07/2009

mattwho wrote:
I think the SW is worth a little more testing.

I agree.  Sometimes we get caught between just being a surfer, wanting to paddle out on our favorite / comfortable board, vs being a shaper / team rider (for ourself), and paddling out on the new or unproven shape we don't feel so sure about.  Which is to say, I've had to force myself to stick with the WS lately, when my inclination was to the GS.  In spite of all the things I've said about volume, I have to supress the impulse to say this board has just too much volume, and grab the other board.  

Yet time and again, I paddle out on it and end up having a great session.  Friday was no exception, other than to say the crowd made it a little tougher than usual.  Pulled up in the darkness, and cars were already lining PCH along the beach.  By the time I suited up and headed to the water, still dark but the horizon just starting to lighten a tinge, there was already a thick swarm of black silhouettes barely visible in the lineup.  There was a little swell, a little size, and the word had gotten out.  Everyone got the memo.  So I was thinking, this is a chance to see if this board can really be the equalizer I'm starting to view it as, and wondering if I would even score a wave in the pack.  Some really nice sets coming through, head high, but several guys going for every wave.  I paddled a bit north of the thickest part, and waited for some sets.  

Ended up getting several waves, got worked more than once since I was taking off behind the peak of a lot of them.  Before the sun even came up I was a little tired, feeling my age as they say, I had a half dozen waves to my account, a couple of them good ones, but none were the wave-of-the-day variety.  Still, enough to say the board was still working for me, and still allowing me to get in early and claim a wave in a crowd, no small accomplishment for the old guy from the sticks.  And I noticed on the bigger faces I didn't need to walk the board as much as I did in the smaller stuff, I was able to navigate pretty well from one spot, just had to walk a bit if it walled up and got steep inside.

There was no one around me on the paddle back out, so I felt comfortable just to bail and rely on the leash when caught inside, I'm kinda paranoid about hanging on since I broke the fingers, although I'll turn turtle if there are people around.  The board paddles fast, so didn't get caught inside much.  Anyway, I was finding the crowd to be like a slalom course, and it was making me nervous, I got out after an hour or so but consider the session a success.

Quote:
In regards to volume…

Well…

There are more ways the one “to skin a cat”

Width is one.

I am working on strategic placement of volume.

i.e. chest and body mass in prone or paddling positon.

Sometimes you get a little lucky with a domed deck.

BTW this is relevant with SB’s as well.

And have been doing a few 2 band rails with hard tucked edge

Of course thinner In the critical spots (rear or under foot)

I am a fan of domed decks, I like the look and feel of a domed deck.  I have seen your boards, I know you foil them beautifully.  Only lately have I been getting away from domed decks, carrying thickness out to toward the edges more.  Still, I curve down before getting to the rail, something I have seen John Carper do on his guns.  It works for me, I don't think dustin would like it, because of the way he surfs, very on the rail.

Quote:
Ha Dustin weighs in @ 175#, let’s see 175# on a 5-8?

Volume management 101.

We need to have breakfast at the Vagabond

And talk!

Eh I’ll buy.

Aloha Nui!

I'm surprised Dustin weighs 175, but they say muscle tissue weighs more than fat, and he doesn't have an ounce of fat on him!  Yeah, that would be a challenge. Heck, he loses volume in his deck wells, you can see why in his go-pro videos, he really mashes down on his turns!

Surf session and breakfast sounds good, maybe our schedules will align sometime soon, I have a lot of irons in the fire and know you do too, so we'll just play it by ear.  Meanwhile, swaylocks is our Vagabond substitute, ha.

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mattwho's picture
Joined: 05/12/2014

Yeah Buddy!

Friday was the call!

I bleed for you having to deal with all that crap!

"T' use to sneak in

got a few days of "perfection"

even after going public,

always zig zag the fools and go till you get picked off.

I am so very pleased you are into the Winged Squad!

IMHO, a winner for your point break.

Yeah, nice to be busy, just sick of the contractor side.

Tuff love!

One day a week for surf sucks!

Like Friday...

My favorite beach break

1:00PM! swell, tide and wind

perfect "old mans" surf...

Lay out at noon

like a lizard on the rocks.

and have a go when it is on...

What luxury being able to scope and plan.

But unfortunately now days we have surf reports.

Jee wiz,

when I was a punk

it was the newspaper with highs and lows!

Shit I have NOAA now!

Eh back to your statement

“So I was thinking this is a chance to see if this board can really be the equalizer I'm starting to view it as, and wondering if I would even score a wave in the pack.  Some really nice sets coming through, head high, but several guys going for every wave.  I paddled a bit north of the thickest part, and waited for some sets. "

#1 Glad to see you have confidence in the WS.

#2 You have it down on where you have an advantage in the lineup...

I never paddled past the last guy on

the other side of the peak of first in the pecking order

but as soon as the cat was gone...

I never "snake" only run and hassle drop ins to their limits.

I had the priority

they did the crime

Eh, like that a#* Sarlo!

Do it!

There is still some honor out there!

Eh,

"Watch out kid ya don't get kilt" (Field Of Dreams).

Side note here.

Funny 2 me!

I have always had a stoke on favorite boards

The confidence is the main thing.

And for me (and as you should know) my oscillation between riding for someone

and (getting' pissed) and riding my own.

It really is a boost to be stoked on your ride

Whatever the heck it is!

Earned priority and confidence

Love it!

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I would rather be someone's shot of whiskey, than everyone's cup of tea.

www.mattysurfboards.com

LiveTheMoment's picture
Joined: 06/27/2014
Thanks for the guidance on the 7'0'' . I added a bit more rocker in the nose area, customers a complete beginner so I have visions of him doing the death grip with both hands while coming down on the drop, so a little extra in the nose area to help stop the nose poking in. Those crowds sound crazy. Although I find it hard to believe that there are no incrowded spots left with a bit of extra driving time? What about boat trips out to the channel islands and surfing yourselves out for a couple of days at a time? I saw on some maps that there are some nice waves out there! Really I know nothing about so cal, so, tell it to me like it is. LTM
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Huck's picture
Joined: 12/07/2009

The crowds are a reality, if you live here you complain, but you learn to deal with them.  Not all bad, I have gotten to know several of the dawn patrollers, some by name and some by  their face, so in some ways it's like I'm surfing with my friends.  Yes there are the aggro boys, but I try to steer clear, for the most part.  I'm an old guy, I don't have to fight my way up through the pecking order, if I'm the first one up and going on a wave, odds are good it will remain my wave.  If I get snaked, yes I might throw a little stinkeye, but then I paddle back for the next one and forget about it.  

The crowds aren't there all day every day, there is some flux, and you can time it right to get some uncrowded surf time too.  Yes there are some less crowded spots in driving distance, but I don't always have that option.  The spot I surf is 5 minutes from my current job, and I only have a brief period in the morning before work for a quick paddle out and a few waves.  I'm not gonna drive the coast and hike into the less crowded spots, miss a bunch of work and bring home a half a paycheck, when I'm barely getting by on what I'm making now, haha.  

I hear guys griping and complaining all the time, I have just made up my mind to stay positive, be friendly and share a little stoke or a compliment or some wax when I can, not get caught up in drama in the lineup, try not to get hurt or hurt anyone, catch a few fun waves, clean up in the public beach shower, and go on about my day.  Once in awhile I'll even get a "nice wave dude", and that puts a smile on my face.  Works for me, as they say.  Attitude is everything.  Volume helps me get by.

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LiveTheMoment's picture
Joined: 06/27/2014
Nicely said Huck, That kind of head space is what its all about. Personally I always try to steer away from crow0ds and surf inferior waves if necessary to escape the people. Or walk miles to in-accessible waves and make a day or days trip. Its usually worth the effort, but as you mentioned getting time to do it is the hard part. Got a trip planned to places off the radar on Friday, but it could be cancelled last minute due to conditions (might be too rough for boat crossings) A question for Huck and Mattwho, as an estimate what kind of volume in litres do you think is your lower limit? LTM
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Huck's picture
Joined: 12/07/2009

I don't have an answer in litres, I'm old school and don't play much with the computer design programs, but here's a couple boards that are at the lower end of my comfort zone.  A 6-7 stubbie, and a 7-4 squaretail.  The more uncrowded the spot I'm surfing, the lower the volume I can get away with.

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LiveTheMoment's picture
Joined: 06/27/2014

Nice, especially the look of the 6'7''

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Huck's picture
Joined: 12/07/2009

mattwho wrote:

Yeah Buddy!

Friday was the call!

I bleed for you having to deal with all that crap!

"T' use to sneak in

got a few days of "perfection"

even after going public,

always zig zag the fools and go till you get picked off.

I am so very pleased you are into the Winged Squad!

IMHO, a winner for your point break.

So far, so good, now I need to start working on my hybrid WS / GS design.  I'm also hoping for a Matty custom - if I buy the blank, and provide the template, think I could persuade you?  I'll do the glassing.

Quote:
Yeah, nice to be busy, just sick of the contractor side.

Tuff love!

One day a week for surf sucks!

Me too, but just taking what I can get right now.

Quote:
Like Friday...

My favorite beach break

1:00PM! swell, tide and wind

perfect "old mans" surf...

Lay out at noon

like a lizard on the rocks.

and have a go when it is on...

What luxury being able to scope and plan.

But unfortunately now days we have surf reports.

Jee wiz,

when I was a punk

it was the newspaper with highs and lows!

Shit I have NOAA now!

Funny.  For us it was crazy Dr. George (Fishbeck), the only weather newscaster who might mention the surf...

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mattwho's picture
Joined: 05/12/2014

"So far, so good, now I need to start working on my hybrid WS / GS design.  I'm also hoping for a Matty custom - if I buy the blank, and provide the template, think I could persuade you?" 

Eh! No problem...

I argree with LTM

the 6-7 rockz it!

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I would rather be someone's shot of whiskey, than everyone's cup of tea.

www.mattysurfboards.com

Huck's picture
Joined: 12/07/2009

Thanks guys, I love my stubbie, but my last few sessions on it have been less than rewarding. It's one of the things that prompted this thread, actually. I decided rather than be frustrated, I'd use the experience as a springboard to analyzing which boards my best sessions were on, and why. And then, how can I focus on what created those best sessions when designing / shaping my next board(s).

I was so frustrated I thought about selling it, but finally decided I am keeping this board for uncrowded days and frontside waves.  For the other 99% of the time, I think I'm gonna have to stick with longer boards.

I loved the few waves I caught with it, so I know it's gonna be fun in the right conditions. But I gotta face reality, if I want to maximize my stoke for the little surfing time I get in the week, and the conditions I am faced with, I gotta go with the 'wave count' boards.  I think everyone dealing with aging and crowd issues (combined) eventually comes to the same realization.

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mattwho's picture
Joined: 05/12/2014

Sorry Bro...

But that is why a quiver is best.

It was good today!

Sneaker NW ha Rincon only 40+ surf forcasters out!

Damn the surf reports to Hell!

Good news, better SW down @OH

Just a little to much for this oldman (stand up)

Regarding the board...

I was kinda thinking a trade off

6-7 for 8-8...

I haven't given up on sweet talking Dustin out of the 8-8

Just that

ah, a 6-7 to these kids is long.

How much do you wiegh?

PM O.K. LMAO!

Here is the story...

I really want to make a board for myself

something with paddle power

AND, easy to get out.

Just hate having to "abandon ship"

In my heart of hearts

I really want to go single concave with quads.

Here are some shots of the 8-8

Double concave quad and tested winner.

Also the vector net aids in winning rail bash contests with snakes

one, two and then they pull out,

They can't affort it!

Your thoughts?

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I would rather be someone's shot of whiskey, than everyone's cup of tea.

www.mattysurfboards.com

Huck's picture
Joined: 12/07/2009

Consider it done!  Want me to add center thruster plug for Dustin?

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mattwho's picture
Joined: 05/12/2014

Huck wrote:

Consider it done!  Want me to add center thruster plug for Dustin?

I'm inclinded to agree with LTM.

Boy loves thrusters!

BTW.

those fin boxes look like "probox"

FCS (tab) will work, yeah?

8-8 is set up quad only with FCS boxes.

Ah, for a reason...

Let's work on this...

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I would rather be someone's shot of whiskey, than everyone's cup of tea.

www.mattysurfboards.com

LiveTheMoment's picture
Joined: 06/27/2014

Yes!!!!!!! go thruster....... Or would be interesting to try it  quad with some GL side bites in the rears with a nubster trailer.  

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Huck's picture
Joined: 12/07/2009

Yes FCS fins work with probox plugs. Quad is fine on the 8-8. Will try to get to it this weekend, keep u posted.

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Huck's picture
Joined: 12/07/2009

Had the WS out in some (small) swell the past 2 days, took it out at the 'bu for a few hours this morning.  I continue to be stoked with it, but I'm thinking a bit less width & thickness, undecided about rocker.  What I have is working good, possibly a tiny bit more than needed, a little less rocker might make the late drops a little trickier, but get me in earlier.  I'll have to compare rockers of the WS and the GS.

I was thinking of going with something like the front half of the Goldern Standard, and the back half of the Wing Squad. But then I just went out and double checked the bottom of the Wing Squad - surprise!

Hey Mattwho, guess what?  I didn't remember this, but sure enough the Wing Squad has a single concave (not deep, about 1/8") all the way from nose to fins, and then double concaves in the fin area, with the stringer even with the rails through the fin area.  Down, tucked rails all the way, front to back.

And the Golden Standard has pinched very round rails with a bit of belly in the nose, so I'm not sure if should try to mix them, wondering if I should just stay with the Wing Squad rails / bottom for the next slimmed down Wing Squad, or try for a hybrid.  How would I even do that?  Decisions, decisions.

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mattwho's picture
Joined: 05/12/2014

Huck wrote:

Hey Mattwho, guess what?  I didn't remember this, but sure enough the Wing Squad has a single concave (not deep, about 1/8") all the way from nose to fins, and then double concaves in the fin area, with the stringer even with the rails through the fin area.  Down, tucked rails all the way, front to back.

Does this mean

Another conversion to "concavelism"?

BTW it is best not to mix concave with entry surface

as there are some possible "Bogg" on takeoff issues.

IMHO...

Somehow I flat assed missed the Wings.

Maybe it was buried deep down had me love both the WS and Stubbie.

Wings are wonderful things.

I posted up http://www.swaylocks.com/forums/origins-wingsting as Olphart way back.

Hope you don’t mind reading an olphart

reminiscing and still trying to keep current.

Way back in ah,78-79 I started shaping for the 2nd time.

And the "wing was the thing"

photo's (of course).

#1 My ride prior to the 2nd coming

#2 circa 78 dbl wing pin

#3 circa 79 triple wing pin ( dbl barrel concave).

#4 Now,  3rd and last time at shaping...

Dustin is turning 35 tomorrow!

Now I am really feeling old as he is the youngest.

And "Boy"?

You sitting down?

He told me that the wing really freed up the edge

and it was easier to bust the fins loose.

Like you or I give a shit!

Bottom-line wings liven things up.

Wings GOOD... 

Thanks for tunin' in!

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I would rather be someone's shot of whiskey, than everyone's cup of tea.

www.mattysurfboards.com

Huck's picture
Joined: 12/07/2009

Nice pics! Yes the wings do liven things up, the WS is easier to turn than I thought it would be. That's knocked a few years off my surfing, ha! Took it out at the "secret spot" again this morning, had a great session, but tore two fins out on a wipeout, one of them plug and all! Bummer. But still had a great morning.

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mattwho's picture
Joined: 05/12/2014

Bustin' fins seems to becoming a habit.

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I would rather be someone's shot of whiskey, than everyone's cup of tea.

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Huck's picture
Joined: 12/07/2009

Well, second time in a year I think, dunno if that constitutes a habit, but if not, then I don't plan on making it one, haha.  One fin came out - gone - but the box remained intact, the other took everything.  Which bums me out - $70 Von Sol quad fins, I normally don't splurge like that but several people told me to upgrade from the cheapie composite ones, so I thought I'd give 'em a try.  Really liked the way the board was working, not sure how much of that was the fins, but definitely don't have another $70 to burn right now.

I don't think I added glass in the pocket when I put these in (but I know I definitely did on the stubbie, even have pics of it).  Went back and looked at the build thread on WS, no pics or details of the fin plugs.  But hey, it ripped one fin out without budging the box, and I know I tightened that fin just a few days ago.

Got the wax off and wiped the board down with paint thinner to prep for shop time, I'll see this weekend if I have a spare plug around, otherwise have to order one.  Too bad, I was starting to get this board wired!  Had a blast this morning.  I was having too much fun at the top of 1st point, taking off on a few set waves I knew I couldn't make, and getting just hammered, note to self: I probably shouldn't be doing that.

I have heard that about concave in the nose, but I have also heard of people who put concave in the nose and say it helps get them in early.  Wing Squad I had a little, not much in the nose, but a little, with the hard down rails with a tuck all the way to the nose point.  The board was working well, a good wave catcher, but I'm always on the lookout for anything that would improve paddling / takeoff.  There were a few late takeoffs that I wished I could have gotten in a bit earlier, and thought I should have, but did the concave cause a "bog"??  I don't know, its possible.  What's your thought on softening the rails up front, but keeping the hard down rails with tuck middle to back?  That's kinda where I'm leaning right now.  I'm starting to love this board, but of course, want to improve it!

One thing I have noticed several times on this board, I'll attempt something and think I failed, next thing I know I made it and I'm like whoa, what do I do now, haha!  So I'm still getting familiar with the performance possibilities of this thing, and how to handle it, etc.  Definitely makes it through and around sections I wouldn't on my longer boards, and seems to accelerate quicker at takeoff - my other boards you kinda have to build up speed, this one just goes.  So yeah, I am kinda becoming a concavian! At least open to the possibility it can be used to advantage on the type and size of boards i've been riding. BTW did you notice the French shaper said concave when I asked about high performance longboard :-)

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LiveTheMoment's picture
Joined: 06/27/2014
Hey Huck, Sounds like your leash got caught in your fin cluster in the wipeout, and then when it came under tension it must have broke the fins. At least you had a great surf up until that point. Softens the blow.
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Huck's picture
Joined: 12/07/2009

Or it may be the fiberglass fin enema my board tried to give me on one particularly tumultuous wipeout, who knows?

Here's some pics of the two boards I want to blend, sorry for the quality there was some fogginess on the lens I didn't notice until after.  The boards have a lot of similarities, and a lot of differences.  Both in shape and performance.  In other words, switching back and forth between the two, I'm surprised at how similar they paddle and ride, even 'tho there clearly are differences.

So, if I like them both so much, why try to combine the shapes?  Refinement.  Now I have two good boards, I want a great board (isn't that what we're all after?).  The Wing Squad is the more high performance, the Golden Standard is the more old school, but like I say, the difference is not radical.  So I want a board that feels fast and loose like the WS, maybe even a bit moreso, but without all that puffed up volume.  Takes later drops like the WS, but easier to hang on to paddling through breaking waves, like the GS.

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mattwho's picture
Joined: 05/12/2014

I'd like to have a problem like that!

The biggest difference (I can see) is the WS has more nose and tail rocker.

Volume again the gremlin.

Here's a spy shot! 

Interesting....

Oh lots more to say

If you like...

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I would rather be someone's shot of whiskey, than everyone's cup of tea.

www.mattysurfboards.com

mattwho's picture
Joined: 05/12/2014

Bump...

Ya know something amigo...

At least some Stretch ides 

are addressing the rail line "bug".

More "mainstream" and dated but still alive.

I think JFK said

"Some ask why not"!

Only in the belly of Sway's

Sez I....

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I would rather be someone's shot of whiskey, than everyone's cup of tea.

www.mattysurfboards.com

Huck's picture
Joined: 12/07/2009

 The rocker is probably what's helping me on later takeoffs.  And the flatter rocker of the GS is probably what makes it paddle and catch waves so well.  So maybe try something in between for next one?  I dunno, the rocker is working really well, maybe I shouldn't mess with it.  Man, decisions decisions.

The GS is 8-4, but I really don't like seeing a wide swallowtail on a longboard, so I'm thinking of staying with the same length / template of the WS,  8' x 22 1/4, it looks right without looking like a fish tail on a longboard.  But thinner, lose some of the volume, slightly more relaxed rocker, and drop the concave / hard rails up front.

That cre8tion board is actually not so different from what I did on the WS, I just rounded that bevel at the top and blended it to a bit of a flat-top dome, as it were.

And yes again, volume is the gremlin.  But I'm finding that you can work with volume, the initial reaction is ugh I don't like this, but once you start riding it on a regular basis, you find it doesn't impact the ride as much as you first thought.  But still, its nice to have the comfort of a thinner board, and there is a bit more sensitivity, or "feel" of the wave, than the fatty.  So again, I'm trying for a compromise, keep some of that volume, but not all.

Check out the radical difference in rail profile at the mid point between the two boards!

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mattwho's picture
Joined: 05/12/2014

O.K.

"But I really don't like seeing a wide swallowtail on a longboard"

So how long is this longboard?

As it matters, overall

I'm thinking we need to sneak up on the gremlin

with length and width.

And most important

strategically placed volume.

Your test board.

Check it over.

Eh Dustins @ 177#

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I would rather be someone's shot of whiskey, than everyone's cup of tea.

www.mattysurfboards.com

Huck's picture
Joined: 12/07/2009

mattwho wrote:

O.K.

"But I really don't like seeing a wide swallowtail on a longboard"

So how long is this longboard?

As it matters, overall

I'm thinking we need to sneak up on the gremlin

with length and width.

And most important

strategically placed volume.

Your test board.

Check it over.

Eh Dustins @ 177#

You know, there is no specific length for "longboard" in that context, I'm just saying aesthetically, I don't like the look of those longboards with fish tails.  So I'm veering away from that.  The WS as it is does not have that look to me, but if I put the WS tail on a GS front half, I think I might be heading in that direction.  That's all I'm saying.

I weigh in at 175, but varies up and down a pound or two throughout the day, so perfect match weight wise.  The board looks killer!  BTW, I checked, and I don't have any more spare plugs, or at least, I can't find them right now.  So I'll order some spares, and put Dustin's thruster plug in when it comes.  Will try to clean the shop out tomorrow and see if I can find something, I was sure I had several spares laying around somewhere...

Yeah, sneak up on volume if you will, but I say don't be shy to just embrace it openly in public either.  Come out of the closet, haha.  Sure, guys like Dustin don't need all that much, so if they want a little extra volume they can hide it in the dome, or add a little length or width, like you say.  But for guys like us, on the last leg of this journey, I say embrace the volume, because it is the key to wave count and general mobility in the lineup.  Sure length and width, but I think thickness also has to come into play, all the way out to the rails if need be, and thats what the WS is really all about.  

The GS, on the other hand, accomplishes what I want without extra thickness, that's a bit of a mystery to me.  So there you have it - a properly designed board, with all the elements working together in harmony, doesn't need it, and dog my cats if I can figure out why the GS works so good for me at 2 3/4" thick and 21" wide!

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LiveTheMoment's picture
Joined: 06/27/2014
Enjoying the stoke. So flatter rocker for catching waves easy, and the higher rocker for late drops and general turning ability. Im thinking something with a subtly staged rocker???? Best of both worlds??? Maybe keep it subtle though. What do you think?
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Huck's picture
Joined: 12/07/2009

I honestly don't think the rockers are all that different, but I guess a small difference makes substantial impact in performance.  I'm not at that level of building, or riding, where I can really say I know which rockers work best. I have two here that work well on their respective boards, and that's a starting point I guess.  Anyway, I'll have to look through the blank catalogs to see what's available, and find something that will yield a rocker between the two.

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mattwho's picture
Joined: 05/12/2014

I spoke of strategic volume.

As being I have not shaped a longboard in over a year

I have been focused on putting a 177# rider on 5-8’s to 5-10’s

And have really worked on getting the volume under the load.

We need to think of the deck weight distribution while prone (paddling)

See photos of these “shorties” #1 & 2

Understand my thinking on LBs

It comes from the Morey Pope (Ventura) days and the John Peck Penetrator.

Which IMHO was way advanced and was introduced around 65!

The Bob Cooper “Blue machine” followed.

These guys were “locals” in my grom days.

All I knew that if the guy coming down was on a “snub”

I wouldn’t try to drop in on him!

Those boards where fast!

Although the volume dispersal on those boards

was forward (as in the first “beak noses) and maybe the first downrailer.

The important aspect of these boards is the rocker.

Basically low nose rocker with lots of tail rocker.

And here is in a nut shell.

What I learned from those shapers mind set

It is quite this simple for us now.

Take a stock “natural rocker” blank.

And that rocker will work well, as the designer worked a lot and that is their best take on rocker.

The rule?

As you add rocker at one end, you need to adjust rocker in opposite  to the other end.

I add tail rocker and reduce nose rocker.

Here is a photo of a proven outline. #3

Maybe not your cup of tea.

But ride it first.

A good foundation.

In closing I will add (now that I know) WS?

Too thick!

None the less a very, very nice board.

Time to think….

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I would rather be someone's shot of whiskey, than everyone's cup of tea.

www.mattysurfboards.com

Huck's picture
Joined: 12/07/2009

Hey Mattwho, all good food for thought, and some gems in there too.  The 8' 8" looks great, looking forward to riding it.  But I gotta say, what's good for the goose is good for the gander.  Don't judge the WS as "too thick" based on what you think you know, as you say, "maybe not your cup of tea, but ride it first."  

You haven't shaped a longboard in over a year - so is it safe to say, you haven't shaped a board for yourself in over a year? (kneelos excluded).  You're thinking volume and distribution in regard to the shortboards you're making for the kids (yes, 35 is a "kid" in my book, my baby just turned 31 this week, ha!), and in that context you're right on.  But I'm saying, what if you start thinking performance shapes for you and me, brah?  Its a different ball game.  

The thing I have been trying to communicate is that the common perception of "too thick" needs to be re-evaluated for older guys (60 and over) like us.  This is what studying the work of Joe Blair taught me.  

http://jblairsurf.com/surfboards/big-guy-surfboards  

I studied this board shown below, I mean I really meditated on what he was doing with that shape.  Keep in mind, at 25" wide and 3 5/8" thick, its a surfboard, not an SUP, don't let that handle fool you.  Look at the outline, the dimensions.  IMO, the guy is breaking ground with this stuff.

jblairsurf wrote:

Big guy

High Performance

works incredibly well for all weight ranges for older guys

Dimensions:
7' 6" Length
25 - 1/2" width
3 - 5/8" thick 
15 - 1/4" nose 
16 - 3/4 tail

 

Yes the Wing Squad looks too thick.  It feels too thick.  I built it and glassed it and stood back and I said the exact same thing.  It's too thick.  But if you take it out into some decent waves, I think you will be pleasantly surprised, I know I was.  

Like I say, it was a "concept board", and as such it was designed to be extreme, to be outside the normal parameters.  But it showed me all that volume is manageable, and can actually be an asset in the waves.  Shoot, I'm even getting the hang of punching through without letting go, just gotta use your legs too, like we always did in the old (pre-leash) days.  Its actually only 1/8" thicker than Joe Blair's board shown above.

Funny thing is, the volume is actually more hidden than those step-up deck boards, and it probably has more than they do.  You and I see it, because we make boards, but other surfers rarely even notice, until I point it out to them.  Then they look hard, and go, "oh shit, that thing really is thick!", haha.  But when you walk down the beach and paddle out, no one even notices.  That's why I've taken to calling it my secret weapon, cuz it really is kind of a secret.  I had a guy paddle up and say "I saw you paddling for that wave, and I thought no way is he in position to get that one, and next thing I know, you got it!"  That's the volume at work.

You have to borrow the WS for a month or two, once I get the new plug in it, and take it out in some 3-5' waves a few times.  Its really probably the volume of a normal longboard, that was the idea, but in a shorter thicker model.  You're bigger than me, so it will likely work even better for you than me - and I'm loving it!  When was the last time you rode an 8 footer?  When was the last time you paddled out on an outline like this?  The volume is what makes is possible.  You might end up having a blast, try to keep an open mind.

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mattwho's picture
Joined: 05/12/2014

Hey Huck,

Really did not mean to step on your WS.

Forgive me and honestly

I just when thru the same thing trying to order the 9-3 AX!

hey it's 4" thick and so far I am the comedy show!

I'm going ahead anyway.

I was not really thinking straight.

This is what I saw and shitted outta my gobb hole!

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I would rather be someone's shot of whiskey, than everyone's cup of tea.

www.mattysurfboards.com

Huck's picture
Joined: 12/07/2009

Quote:
You have to know that I was apprehensive over making this board with so much thickness and volume - inspired by Joe Blair and what he's doing with his "big guy" boards.  I'm really testing the limits of what I can get away with (I'm an old guy, and bigger than I used to be, but not all that big at 180 lbs.) - although the board is probably small and thin compared to an SUP.  Still, its a lot of foam I'm sitting on out there in the lineup, and a lot of foam out there in my rails, so I was a bit nervous about how it would perform.  (I can't believe they also make this blank in an X size with more thickness - wow!) It definitely feels "different", but like I say, the performance while wave riding has been good, very good in some cases, so I'm heaving a sigh of relief, and wondering how its gonna perform in a wide variety of circumstances, especially once the winter swells arrive with a little more size and punch.

As you can see from the above quote, I tried to get a conversation on the subject back when I posted the build thread, to no avail.  In saying "too thick", you are only stating the popular, or common, viewpoint, which I expect from certain quarters, however in your case I insist you take the board and try it awhile, then tell me what you think :-)  After all, Dustin will be riding my stubbie, I will be riding your 8--8, and now you will be riding the WS.  All in the name of design testing, a good thing.  I think we can all learn something here.

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mattwho's picture
Joined: 05/12/2014

K

More later Amigo..

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I would rather be someone's shot of whiskey, than everyone's cup of tea.

www.mattysurfboards.com

mattwho's picture
Joined: 05/12/2014

Hey,

I hate Mondays.

I'm @ 225# 

I think the WS would be a blast.

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I would rather be someone's shot of whiskey, than everyone's cup of tea.

www.mattysurfboards.com

Huck's picture
Joined: 12/07/2009

mattwho wrote:

Hey,

I hate Mondays.

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mattwho's picture
Joined: 05/12/2014

Eh?

That'll help my mondays!

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I would rather be someone's shot of whiskey, than everyone's cup of tea.

www.mattysurfboards.com

Huck's picture
Joined: 12/07/2009

well, yeah, me too!  ... but then, I'm working minutes away from the beach, and... the surf was on this morning!  Solid 4-5' on the sets, glassy, not too crowded, swell coming from a little different direction than last week, bit of north or west to it, I had a blast, got whomped on the inside cuz I'm too addicted to kick out when I should, memo to self: kick out when you can see the rocks underwater, ha!  No blood, just bruises, all good.

Today I had the Banana Boat out, and I was stoked!  At first I was bummed the WS was down for the count, but these were the best waves I've had the Banana Boat in, and it rocks in these conditions.   The BB is from the same blank as the WS, a little thinner overall, a little thinner rails, a bit fuller nose, still a boatload of foam (there's a reason I called it the Banana Boat!).  But hey, it got me in early.  Point and go.  Smooth as butter on the turns.  Only bummer - one of my fin plugs is stripped, no idea how that happened, so now I have another plug to replace - man!  I jammed some vinyl plumber tape in there, and put the screw back in, it felt pretty tight hopefully hold for a while, otherwise back to the GS.

Yeah don't want to force the WS on you, but I'd be tickled if you'd take it for awhile and just paddle out and see, I think its got all the foam you need!  Since I came back to surfing 6 years ago, I have struggled continuously with my popup on anything other than a longboard.  But not with these beasts, hah.  Feels like I'm getting a little bit of my mojo back.  If you get a few fun waves, maybe try the BB sometime too, similar concept, and both quads.

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mattwho's picture
Joined: 05/12/2014

Hey Huck,

Way back when, I some how thought, I'll heal just don't ding the board.

LMAO!

EZ oldman!

Charging the shore pound is not sound (at our age).

A stylish kick out'l work.

Sometimes we have to marvel in Gods will…

I mean how your boards were taken out of action.

The Banana Boat! What a quiver!

So very stoked for you.

Finally testing your investments.

Loving every word of this underground text.

Really wanted to get back to you on the volume gremlin

Somewhere think you mentioned “step deck”

Back when I was doing the spoons I did one that was

9-6 out of a 10-2 blank.

Glad I’m an old-timer.

Had the solution right off.

Here is a classic photo

J Peck Penetrator (more on file)

M. Dora Spoon

K. Aaberg Jacobs Lance Carson.

A little common ground here...

I respect your input!

I digest every word.

#1. I open my mind.

#2. Fight my selfish opinion.

#3. Ponder and dissect the possibilities

Within my concept of things.

This is great soul food!

On the WS

Ya know it’s going to be beach break.

Do I have a choice in cants?

6 deg front

4 deg rear

Eh, to picky?

No worries….

Love ya bradda

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I would rather be someone's shot of whiskey, than everyone's cup of tea.

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Huck's picture
Joined: 12/07/2009

Yeah, as we get older we think boards are replaceable, fingers and other appendages not so much, haha.  Working on that stylish kickout today, well, kickout anyway, the stylish part dunno.

You're right, it has worked out very well after all.  I still gotta order some fin plugs, slight financial bind due to IRS penalties on a late payment, but next week should be good to spend, sorry for the delay.  But I broke the BB out somewhat reluctantly, wishing I could be on the WS, and man, it has quickly become my favorite flavor of the day!  I have so many boards, I'm slow on getting to know each one.

Surfs so solid, its like I don't have to work at it, just relax and go.  At 8' x 22" nearly a longboard, but doesn't surf like a longboard, rides much more like a midlength, but just paddles easy.  To be honest, (as with most my boards) I had no confidence in the shape at first, was real tentative on my first few paddle outs, I kept thinking too thick, had my doubt about quad fins, did I get the placement right, etc.  So I had a few decent sessions, but small waves, and just no real confidence in it.

Last few sessions were decent waves, and the board comes alive! (size dropped a bit today but still some sets coming through in morning)  And I might get some photos from today, I should know by next week, will post them up if I do.  But have a whole new appreciation for the board!  I almost hate to say it, but it has a bit of concave up front, flat through middle, double barrel V in fin area. Concave in nose hasn't been a problem, but I've heard it can be, with some shapes.  I took suggestions from TRJM (I hope I got the name right), this was kinda loosely based on his design, and I haven't been disappointed.  He's the one that said go quad also.

Nice pic, those are some real legends there!

I haven't done much beach break surfing past few years, but I'm sure you know what you need for your spots, 4 and 6 degrees no problem, those are standard inserts for probox, you can change cant by changing inserts.  Banana Boat I went 4 degrees on all 4 fins, per Steve Huerta's advice, and haven't been disappointed.  Right now the BB fins are working really well for me, love the smooth flowing effortless turns I get.  The Stubbie felt a little squirrelly, thruster setup is probably gonna be better, or play with cants and placement (you have a bit of adjustment foreward and back also).  Or maybe Dustin will like it that way, who knows.

Thanks for listening, I'm just an old phart too, and no expert on anything, but having fun pushing to find the right design to maximize my golden years' surf sessions, lol.  I've had a lot of frustration sessions, paddle out in a crowd and not get any waves, and just decided I don't want to spend my time that way any more.  Get plenty of waves on my longboard, but not the board I want to be on when the size or power amps up a bit.

Open mind and putting opinions on hold is difficult, I struggle with it every board I make.  Like I said, I have a tendency to doubt myself, every board I've made and liked, it was never right away, I always start off with a bit of a negative, skeptical attitude.

Today I asked my surf buddy Richard how it went.  He's like 47 I think, been surfing about 8 years, dedicated dawn patroller, don't really know the guy other than to say hi every morning, but a nice guy.  He was frustrated, couldn't get into the waves, said the waves had no push, but that was the insiders, the set waves had plenty but he wasn't getting any.

I said hey, why not try a bit more volume (he's on a 6-6 potato chip)?  Right away he says No, no way, I'm not that old, and I'm losing weight so I can go with an even smaller board yet, I started out on bigger boards, I'm working my way down as I progress.  OK, great, but he's not having any fun, frustrated, having a hard time getting any waves in the crowd, but his mind is made up, so, oh well!

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