the old man and the sea

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mattwho's picture
Joined: 05/12/2014

Wow!

Hey I just love the IRS!

They wanted to arrest me once...

They let the Wall Street junk bond dudes off and came after the guys who'll pay up!

Sad world... A democratic shake down (see video as to what I said in this regard).

Back to fun stuff.

So stoked that the BB is coming thru for you!

Honesty I kills me to the bone to hear that you lack confidence.

I'll state that @ your board count and distinct lack of power tools.

And that at least yours truly thinks you’re a late bloomer who has more talent

than most backyard hacks and some Pros. Eh your stuff doesn't stink!

Creativity, excellent shaping and lam's (I'm dreading my first epoxy lam job)!

Muncho respecto.

Yer good kid, believe it!

What's up next?

The "sign board"?

And your buddy Rich

fits the mold all right.

No dess...

He needs to face the facts.

I mean the perception of "cool".

Moreover "cool board" 

I am cool but

I can't surf it.

But I am cool.

What a fool...

All I now is this is the kind of guy that 

I can count on to buy a Pro board outta the rack over a functional alternative.

Bottom-line if I want to sell boards like that, guess what?

I give them what they want, hope it is not a sin.

Although lately the "Contender" shape is selling.

Kinda puts a boost in my old ass to see that, as

compared to making boards that will never be surfed to their potential.

go figure.

I am thinging right now

that you are realizing that the belief in one’s self is between the ears.

Never doubt, paddle out.

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I would rather be someone's shot of whiskey, than everyone's cup of tea.

www.mattysurfboards.com

Huck's picture
Joined: 12/07/2009

Yeah, that was a bitter pill to swallow, mos def, I had to take out a high interest loan just to pay the jacked up late fees and get the buggers off my back.

When I say lack confidence, I mean not so much in my building, but more as a surfboard designer, its hard to know if you got all the ingredients of the recipe just right, and so many things can go wrong.  And up to now most of my boards have been prototypes (not a refinement of an existing shape), and kinda outside the box and off the beaten path as it were - so every new board, when I should approach it with an open mind, I start off with doubts, that's my foible :-(

Lamming with epoxy is easy, but the fill coat and finish coat can be tricky.  You don't need to mix a lot, in fact if you under-calculated you can actually mix a little more mid-job if needed, and just keep going.  Unless going with a tint, of course.

You're right the sign board is another one on moth balls for now, it needs some decent waves, and I'm more inclined to take one of my magic three out, for now (GS, WS, and BB).  Thinking real hard lately about converting it to quad also.

(I'm editing to update here) Yesterday was first time in awhile I passed on paddling out, 20 guys out before the sun even cracked the horizon, and when it did, the waves were crap.  So thats what you meatheads get when you paddle out before you can see what's out there, haha.  Serves 'em right.  Of course, I've done the same more times than I care to admit, lol.  Anyway, I opted for breakfast and an early start on work.

Today, however, was still kinda small but some nice little sets coming through, cleaner and punchier than yesterday's crumblers.  Nice little mornng session, I got a couple of epic (for me) turns in, the wide tail and quad setup really lends itself to easy, fluid turns.  I saw my photog buddy on the beach, will have to find out if he got any shots.

Poor Rich (pun intended) is missing out, but his scenario is all too common.  I can't tell you how many times I'll ask a guy, how was your session, and hear they got no waves, or nothing but complaints and negativity, too crowded, too many kooks, tide too high, waves too this, not enough that, etc etc.  But in most cases the board they're on is a skinny little chip with no float.

Watched an older guy (probably 50-ish) on a midlength today, longer than a shortboard but still a little weak on foam / volume in spite of its length, and he couldn't get into a lot of waves.  He'd be in position, and stoked, his feeble little arms pumping away (haha, couldn't resist), and just couldn't get in.  You could see the disappointment written all over his face.

Almost makes me feel guilty for how much fun I've been having, especially being that I'm just a fat old gray man from the sticks.   It wasnt so long ago I was just like them, frustrated I mean. So now I feel like I'm on the right track, but itching to graduate from the prototypes, and start working on the refinement stage.

Glad to hear about the contender, it looks like a good model that people can really enjoy.

And BTW, not related to anything, don't know if you're a movie fan, but I went and saw Bridge of Spies with the missus, it was a really good flick.  Kinda old school, where there's an actual story and plot, not a bunch of unbelievable special effects, bombs going off and cars crashing, etc.  Saw Everest also, that one was kinda depressing.

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mattwho's picture
Joined: 05/12/2014

Funny 2 me.

As in perhaps, I know your quiver all to well.

Looks to me like we are in surf for a while.

(Humor here) If you continue with your

ah,

well, let's say surf without abandon approach.

Maybe, youl'll get to give the "lemon Twist" a shot!

LOL & Aloha....

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I would rather be someone's shot of whiskey, than everyone's cup of tea.

www.mattysurfboards.com

L.I.T.'s picture
Joined: 10/08/2014

Hi guys,

            Huck, how'd you go with checking out those links I posted a while back in this thread - what were your thoughts about the different boards in 'em?

I recently picked up a used 5'11" Firewire Vanguard. Lots of volume, but short. And rated as "high-performance". Haven't had a chance to get out on it properly yet to form a real impression of it.

It killed me to do it, because I was really hanging to shape my next board, but it was exactly the right kind of board that I was looking for, at the right price for my budget (and also a fair bit cheaper than you normally see them for), and apart from a couple of small dings I had to fix up, in great shape (touch wood).

'Reason I mentioned it is your thoughts about the modifications to the GS you think would work in making your next board, sound a fair bit in the direction of (what I remember reading somewhere on the 'net) the Vanguard's been accused of being when it first came out; i.e. "a longboard with the nose and tail cut off".

Personally, I'm not a fan of the diamond nose (I prefer leaving sharp edges and pointy bits off boards where possible -> e.g. I like the nose on the Firewire Nano).

Will let you know what it's like once I've got some time in on it.

Huck wrote:

I said hey, why not try a bit more volume (he's on a 6-6 potato chip)? Right away he says No, no way, I'm not that old, and I'm losing weight so I can go with an even smaller board yet, I started out on bigger boards, I'm working my way down as I progress.

Regarding your friend; I'm younger than him, I'm not the kind of guy who needs a high-volume board due to being overweight or a beginner surfer. And I've just gone from my 6'4 HPSB (probably about 30 litres) to a 39 litre board.

I wised up to the value of volume back when I was in my teens/early twenties (which is why my old HPSB is 30 litres rather than in the low 20's like every other guys board who was of a similiar age back in those days).

Tell him he can have his cake (i.e. go to a shorter board) AND still eat it too (i.e. get MORE volume in the board rather than less, despite the length getting shorter) with the boards that are around these days.

He doesn't have to commit to it; just tell him to log on to the Firewire or Lost website, and use the volume calculator on it (**emphasize he has to be ABSOLUTELY HONEST when filling in his details, and it has to be his CURRENT weight, not what he thinks he might get to one day). Then go out and demo for a day something like the Lost Puddle Jumper or the Firewire Baked Potato at the size/volume suggested for him.

Make sure he swaps between his current board and the demo board every few sets (and preferably in conditions that he typically surfs in) so he can really feel the difference in what's possible.

It should only cost him about $40 or so. It'll be fun, and if nothing else, it'll get you (and me too I guess) off his back about the volume thing :)

Surfing should be fun. So why not get a board that's not only high performance, it makes it easy for you to surf it too?

And if he still refuses, well you can only lead a horse to water....

I've tried to convince others of not being afraid of pumping up the volume a little and had them point-blank refuse; no point stressing about it, and like you, I came to the same conclusion; every wave they miss is another one I can add to my waves for the day :)  :)

Cheers guys!

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Huck's picture
Joined: 12/07/2009

My friend is unfortunately not interested in a conversation on the subject.  He is an intermediate surfer, and does generally get his fair share of waves.  But some days, he is fighting the low volume on his board, and watching him surf, I think it is hindering his surfing.  But it is not something he wants to discuss, he is not open to suggestions, although I tried, because I think he could have more fun and get more waves.  I just used his example, among others, to demonstrate a point.

Thanks for the links, and the reminder to check them out.  I spent some time trying to watch the videos on my I-phone when I was away from my computer for a period, to no avail.  

I have seen the OBQ in person, it is a very nice board.  I have used the twin-single fin configuration on a couple boards, and was considering making one of my Golden Standard variations to include the twin-single, especially as I have a pair of fins designed by Thrailkill, and it could be added to a board with a thruster setup, for another option.

The Webber Diamond looks like a nice board, but I couldn't understand what the guy in the video was saying.  What design features of the Diamond do you recommend?  The rails seem to have pinched bevel not unlike my stubbie, a board which I hope to be trading soon, although I did have some fun waves on it.  Just a little too short for my circumstances and tastes at present.

The Duo is an interesting board, but seems like a variation of the Thrailkill twin-single, and not something I want to pursue at present. I have recently been enjoying exploring the quad setup, and actually have very few boards with thruster fin setup, so that interests me as well, as an option to explore.  What is your experience with the Duo?  Ride report?  Design details?

The Lost Puddle Jumper looks very much like a shortboard version of my Banana Boat, which I am currently enjoying as a major player in my search for the ideal board.

Burnsie has some good reviews, unfortunately he is not a shaper, and does not really cover much of the design details.  If I had access to a McCoy Nugget, I would definitely check it out!  Can you give me any pointers on the design details of the nugget?  I can't remember if you said you had one or not.

I have definitely been trying to incorporate some of the design ideas I see in modern grovel boards into my oversized midlengths, and it has been paying off.  I'm hoping to get some "progress report" pics up soon, but might be a week or two, if I do.

What I'm intested in at present, are boards with longboard type volume and wave catching ability, but with more shortboard design features, and more performance characteristics, i.e. able to handler later drops, more on rail turning, and speed speed speed.

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Huck's picture
Joined: 12/07/2009

mattwho wrote:

Funny 2 me.

As in perhaps, I know your quiver all to well.

Looks to me like we are in surf for a while.

(Humor here) If you continue with your

ah,

well, let's say surf without abandon approach.

Maybe, youl'll get to give the "lemon Twist" a shot!

LOL & Aloha....

Yeah, if I keep going at this rate, I'll have to break out the lemon twist eventually!  Trying to find a little time to finish that one up, but life keeps throwing me all kinds of busy work to keep me away!  Its tantalyzingly close to completion.

There was a bit of pulse in the water this morning, some nice bumps came through, but then a lot of lull time as well.  I had to get on to work, but did manage to score a few.  Nice to think we might get some waves in the near future.

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mattwho's picture
Joined: 05/12/2014

Hey all,

The surf report is getting better.

See more on the "Blob" here in the bin.

Guys these exchanges of ideas is like 

let's say it's like that breath you take

after a two wave hold down....

I'll explain,

The first is your arm reaching into the air

Well, you know, you made it.

I mean just seconds before you were on the 

edge of panic and it still looked like you were a long way down.

This relates here

just as that first gulp of air.

That feeling is what I am feeling.

And in keeping in context

we are discussing

“What I'm interested in at present, are boards with longboard type volume and wave catching ability, but with more short board design features, and more performance characteristics, i.e. able to handler later drops, more on rail turning, and speed.”

BTW I have been content on a favored outline.

And have had my blinders on as I WAS convinced that it was the best.

And just like that breath, so very important and rejuvenating.

In my case a fresh outlook.

Ya know, I put up a ditty on LB quad fin set up.

And in review,

Pow!

It hit me Barry’s board!

See photos.

Ah!

I feel better…

Only

Snyder did it already.

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I would rather be someone's shot of whiskey, than everyone's cup of tea.

www.mattysurfboards.com

Huck's picture
Joined: 12/07/2009

Longboard with fish tail, hmmmm.  Awesome work, no doubt, although IIRC it was stated that the board did not work best as a quad, I think he said he ended up going 2+1.

My current interest is along the lines of taking a shortboard design and "blowing it up" to longboard type volume, then tweaking the details to make it user friendly.  Say, something like this, but in an 8' (or larger) model...

In fact, what if every one of those test run models you made for the team guys, you made a "big boy" model for yourself?  I think you'd be on to something there.  You are just too doggone unselfish!

I think Bruce Fowler is going this direction on some of his F.O.Y. series boards.  And I know Joe Blair has done exactly that on a couple of his models, which is why I generally try to post links or make reference to his work, (http://jblairsurf.com/surfboards/big-guy-surfboards) but have yet to get any kind of dialog going.  The model below is a good example, and note the last sentence in his description - he makes this in a 9' by 24 1/2" by 4" version!  To me, that's a groundbreaking "longboard" right there!  

Quote:

 

Big guy Short Board Quad Fin

Dimensions:

6' 10" Length
14" nose
23" width
16 - 3/4" tail
3 - 1/4" thick
56.4 Volume

This is my most popular board I get requested orders for...  This is a blown up shortboard for bigger or heavier surfers who want to just go off!  This board catches waves and is very responsive. The Big Short Board comes in a round pin to roll into turns earlier and turns faster than a squash. The rails are tucked under which makes this board more maneuverable and it will not catch a rail or bog down.  Board can be made in sizes you like up to 9 Foot 24-1/2 inches wide and 4 inches thick for a 275 lb. surfer.

Let me be frank, I'm an old guy who's beat his head against a brick wall for six years trying to ride shorter (say 7' 6" and under) boards.  And you know what, I can ride them, but the overall experience is lacking.  Too much frustration factor.  I've gotten in as good of shape as I reasonably have time for, I'm old and gray and a little overweight, unlike my hair the crowds at my go-to spots are not thinning out any, but I still want to paddle out, get waves, and have a blast.  

Now, if I've gotta paddle out on an eight or nine footer, so be it, that's what I'm gonna do.  But I kinda get bored on my 9' mal, or say the surf is 4-6' and grinding (which is getting close to my limit), and I start pearling on late takeoffs, or trimming when I want to be flying around sections.  That said, I look at Joe's board above, and I think about paddling out on an 8 or 9' version of that in 4-6' grinders, and I get tingly all over!  That tingly feeling is stoke, and that's what I'm currently chasing.

I also consider the Rusty Big Cat as another example of this - he makes it as large as 8-6 by 23 1/4 by 3 1/4 - those are longboard statistics, but look at the outline! (This is similar to my WS, yet I had no thought of the Big Cat when I originally came up with the template - which tells me I'm on the right track.) I became aware of the similarities during the design process, and borrowed details from the public descriptions I found. The outline has little resemblance to a longboard, the design origins are clearly from the shortboard gene pool. (http://www.rustysurfboards.com/big-cat/)

Quote:

The Big Cat has a commanding presence in the lineup. A board that is ready to pounce with agility and power for its size. This board is built with one of our fullest and widest outlines and a semi-flat deck that carries a little extra volume out to the reail making it easy to paddle and catch waves. It has a firm, semi-full rail and a single-to-double-concave bottom with a touch of vee in the tail that lends to quick responsive control. The distinct double-wing swallow and slightly relaxed rocker makes this design versatile for a good range of waves.

I'm intrigued by the concept, which is very different from adding shortboard or performance features to a longboard, or a scaled down longboard, the usual approach.  Not that that isn't a very legitimate path to a good performance longer board, and I am definitely staying open to the possibilites of that avenue as well, but the scaled up shortboard is kind of a wide open field, with a lot of benefits to gain if it can be done.  And its all just fun, of course!

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nomastomas's picture
Joined: 06/23/2004

Most of my customers are bigger and/or older guys (like me!) who can’t find a board that works for them off the shelf. By bigger I mean 180lb-240lb. (wetsuit fit is another problem we have, but that’s a whole ‘nuther story)

I’ve found some success with a shape I call the “Widget”, typically 7’ to 8’ in length with width 22-1/2” to 23” and thickness up to 3-1/4”, all depending upon rider weight. I use a few of design gimmicks to keep these shapes from becoming pointy-nose corks. First, either a single-or double bump/wing tail to pull in an otherwise unwieldy tail. Second, a sloped-rail to maintain volume, while retaining a less than bulbous rail. Third, fairly flat rocker, especially entry rocker to keep the shape from plowing water with its heavy rider.

The now traditional single-to-double concave bottom works well on a shape that needs to generate as much lift as possible to counter its load. Nothing original here, not even the combination.

Much of my inspiration comes from Rusty, whom I consider to be the expert on Big Guy performance surfboards. He’s published a lot of his ideas on his website. Channel Islands M-13, Roberts Dream Catcher, JC Equalizer, Infinity Secret Weapon, and of course, the Rusty Big Cat are but a few of the variations on this theme.

US Blanks has caught on as well, with a number of hybrid-esque blanks under 8’ boasting extra thickness and fuller outlines to meet the demands of these shapes. And, I prefer EPS core for bigger guy shapes, as it allows the shaper to minimize the volume for the heavier rider. 

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Huck's picture
Joined: 12/07/2009

nomastomas wrote:

...Nothing original here, not even the combination...

Maybe not, but your designs are also far enough from "mainstream" that, as you say, you can't find anything close in an "off the rack" board at most shops.

Beautiful work, and clearly a very well thought-out design.  I recall you saying in an earlier post that you were in your late 60s, and still riding regular surfboards, i.e. not rowboats or otherwise.  So your word carries a lot of weight with me, thanks for sharing, those are awesome shapes, and I really appreciate you including the design details - mahalo.

And BTW, I too appreciate the blanks that US Blanks are offering for boards in this category, as far as I know Marko has nothing similar.

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mattwho's picture
Joined: 05/12/2014

Gonna have to lube my brain gears.

Lots of great stuff herein!

A cornucopia  for this old mind.

Thanks all.

Can we have some more...

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I would rather be someone's shot of whiskey, than everyone's cup of tea.

www.mattysurfboards.com

nomastomas's picture
Joined: 06/23/2004

I appreciate the compliment Huck, and I'm really enjoying this thread. I got the longest ride of my life during last December's big swell, on the board in the top photo. I picked up the wave in front of the bathrooms at C St, and worked it all the way past the stairs in the Cove. Unfortuately, with the crowd and my diminishing abilities, it was only one of the two waves I got during that 2hr session. After that wave, I paddled in and made the long walk back to the Pay Lot with a silly grin on my face. Sometimes, one is enough, eh? But it was undeniable that a bigger mid-sized board was in my near future.

I'm dabbling with a 7-10 Speed Egg 5-fin at the moment, but we're still in the "getting-to-know-you phase" of our relationship. And, in anticipation of El Nino I have a 9-9 LB semi-gun being glassed. Mid-size boards are just too hard get out on when the white water is running 4'-5'. I'd rather take my chances with a fast paddling board, timing the lulls and finding the shifting channels. I typically surf a 9'6" or 9'8" 77-78L LB, but this board is 83L, which I hope will get me outside quickly and into the wave early.  When I was younger, and in my 50s, my winter board was a 9-0 HPLB, which also worked in places like Nica or CR, but those days are over. Its no fun just watching other people surf....

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mattwho's picture
Joined: 05/12/2014

Aloha fellow dungeon dwellers!

Outrageous work nomastomas loving your concepts!

The wings don’t work so well?

The magic outline I have been using is something I am quite partial to.

Huck youseem to be worried about nose rocker in regard to those all too frequent late drops.

I “try” to get an angle going and trust my fin set up.

I am going to put forward an old design.

Again something I hold on to, in this case an awful long time.

I was complacent during this time period.

My recollections are mostly Malibu and Rincon

I was absorbed with the Performer which the first (65/66 model) came out around the same time as the Penetrator

The first Performer was and excellent all around board.

The first mass forward “down rail’s I rode was a Con “Wing nose (or tip).

Over at second point the Peck Penetrators ruled.

 The same at Rincon.

Both the Performer “super scoop” and Bob Coopers “Blue Machine” came out.

I never got a chance to ride any of Morey Popes, only observe them in action.

And study up on the concept.

Of which has been locked away in my memory bank a long time.

HA! Selective memory…

As time goes by this board proves itself as a big leap.

To me anyway!

I do believe Mr. J. Peck still makes a few and you can see the advancements.

I was never a fan of the “Snub nose” and my thought was about swinging the extra weight around

But and it is a big BUTT…

The rocker of the Penetrator.

The key for me was an ad Morey Pope put in Surfer.

In which you could fold the page like a wave.

And judge for yourself the effect of tail rocker.

I believed it, heck was 16!

Not saying anything more than

Tail rocker IMHO can offset nose rocker.

Your thoughts…

Enjoy some Vintage JP photos

? sorry for some reason 2 keep coming up 

well, the way I sometimes view things...

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I would rather be someone's shot of whiskey, than everyone's cup of tea.

www.mattysurfboards.com

Huck's picture
Joined: 12/07/2009

Hey Matty, I have no worries about rocker, the rocker on my "magic" three is working out great.  The GS has the most relaxed of the three, the WS and the BB are pretty close to identical, being from the same blank, and I left the natural rocker of the blank (US Blanks 8-2A poly).  Those two are probably the best at late drops, with a more pulled in nose, and a bit more rocker.  On the other hand, my 9' mal, with it's wide longboard nose, and flat "relaxed rocker", does not take late drops as well as the others.  I read your earlier comments about adding tail rocker as you take away nose rocker, I have no argument.

Here is a shot of nomasTomas' Widget rocker, for comparison purposes.  You can also see, by comparing the photo below with the BB rocker shot, that his quad fin cluster appears to be tighter than mine, probably just personal preference, but the BB setup is working really well for the type of surfing I do, so again, that's one thing I'm not looking to tweak very much.  I do think his fins look interesting, I should really try some different fins to see what effect I get, which I plan to do as my budget allows.

I think it was swaylocks poster tenover who shaped a longboard with the blank reversed, and had a great ride report on it.  And I've heard others say that adding tail rocker helps with late takeoffs, as you step back on the drop it tends to lift the front of the board.  Like I say, these rockers shown are working great, so I'm not inclined to tweak them much.  I've never been nimble of foot like your son, so even when I was younger late takeoffs were a weakness of mine, of course I was riding a fish with almost no rocker back then.  So anyway, I'm tickled pink to be making drops I used to botch, its a great feeling.  Not surfing Jalama either 'tho, that place used to always nail me, wave after wave!

I went ahead and downsized the giant photo files in your post (they kept freezing my screen every time I'd try to read through this thread), and turned them around right side up while I was at it.

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mattwho's picture
Joined: 05/12/2014

Eh thanks,

Should have resized those scans!

Opps, thanks again.

Really "barking up the wrong tree"

with tail rocker, as your photos show.

And the WS is the better blend IMHO.

Love all the input going on here.

Really trying to absorb all I have seen.

Nosradomis is on another level here.

His photos show what looks a lot like a certain reef just North of Overhead.

A local 2 boot.

As I mentioned earlier the brain gear lube job.

Thing (my brain that is) is humming' now

with a few gears left to grind.

Liked your comment “My current interest is along the lines of taking a short board design and "blowing it up" to longboard type volume, then tweaking the details to make it user friendly.  Say, something like this, but in an 8' (or larger) model... “

I know exactly what you mean.

And have got some ideas orbiting around in my head.

Really need some blanks!

Gonna order some for one offs

9-0 & 8-0

But in the mean time I’ll just

Grind gears....

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I would rather be someone's shot of whiskey, than everyone's cup of tea.

www.mattysurfboards.com

Huck's picture
Joined: 12/07/2009

Yes, it is a lot to absorb.  And yes, like you I'm spinning gears here on Swaylocks because I don't have the cash right now to go buy some blanks, like I'm itching to.  I'm just really glad I have a few other minds to engage on the subject.

Here's an interesting quote from nomasTomas "Mid-size boards are just too hard get out on when the white water is running 4'-5'. I'd rather take my chances with a fast paddling board, timing the lulls and finding the shifting channels."

I know exactly what he's talking about, and I know you do too.  The paddle out at the point during a consistent west or north swell can be brutal, more than once I've ended up down by the pier, had to get out, walk the long trek back up, and try again.  On the day pictured below, I did not make it out.  Got swept down into the bay, had to swallow my pride to admit I wasn't up to giving it a second go.  It wasn't the size so much as the consistency, just no letup, and I timed my paddle out poorly.  The white waters there do not diminish or dissipate like they do at some other spots, they sweep down with a relentless energy.

Right now I'm kinda spoiled by the easy paddle out at my go-to spot in north L.A. county.  Say what you will about the crowds, the waves are easy to get to, seldom get caught inside.  Makes surfing there an old man's paradise, hah!  Ventura in a decent swell will separate the men from the boys, and, well, from the old men, lol.

At any rate, nomastomas' thinking was also the philosophy of the guy I made the Hanalei gun for - a real believer in foam to get around on, even in bigger waves.  He said when a set came and he had to scratch for the horizon, he wanted something that would get up and go.  And he is a fairly accomplished surfer, despite whatever other qualities I may not have appreciated, lol.  So this was probably one more piece of the puzzle that caused me to start exploring these fatter, higher volume shapes.

I think one of the hardest things to do, as a shaper making your own boards, is to put out of your mind what works best for anyone else, and just really see the reality of what is working best for you, and hone in on that.  Its almost like you have to unlearn as much as you have to learn, because you will automatically, by reflex, start thinking in terms of what has worked or is working for others. 

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LiveTheMoment's picture
Joined: 06/27/2014
Some nice posts going on, I would like to see some scaled up versions of regular surfboard models. Please excuse my ignorance, as someone under 40 years old talking here. Correct me as you wish-I can take it haha But....... Even for older guys I can't understand why anyone in half decent shape without any big injuries should have to go bigger than a 7 0"? You can fit loads of volume into a board of that size-I mean loads! Like enough to glide into a wave easily without even trying. And Huck, I agree with you regarding the rails on the thick model that you have, One of my early and most favorite boards ever had accidental big boxy fat rails, I even had some friends say to me while walking down the beach 'what the hell are you riding?!! ' But that board went amazing! I'd keep an open mind when it comes to rocker, personally I think that a change in the rocker could be a solution for keeping boards shorter and keeping paddling power and wave catching ability. My staged rocker (blended in) experiments are making my boards feel bigger, my standard all-round shortboard has aleays been 6 0, Im already down to 5 11, and I think I might even be able to take things down to 5 10 or 5 9 without losing any paddling ability. In fact I think they will catch waves better than my old 6 0's. But so far I have only tested ky test board 3 in really crappy conditions, so its difficult to know if there has been any performance trade-off. Excuse me for jumping in on a thread where perhaps I am not qualified, I just couldn't resist getting involved. LTM
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Huck's picture
Joined: 12/07/2009

LiveTheMoment wrote:
Some nice posts going on, I would like to see some scaled up versions of regular surfboard models.

Hey LTM, yes, in regard to shaping bigger boards using the design characteristics more commonly found on shortboards, as in the examples given, you end up with a 'long board', but with some of the performance advantages of a shorter board (which I explained pertain in my case to speed, abilitiy to handle later takeoffs, and ease of turning).  Its not just a matter of scaling the board up to a bigger size, that's just the starting point, but one would have to tinker with all the variables to arrive at a good functional surfboard.  The older demographic seeking these type boards is probably not large enough to merit any of the major surfboard brands really delving deeply into this area, but for us guys making our own customs, it seems a worthy area to pursue.  As mentioned Joe Blair has a couple models, surprisingly Rusty does too, although you seldom see them in any shop rack.

Quote:
 Please excuse my ignorance, as someone under 40 years old talking here. Correct me as you wish-I can take it haha But....... Even for older guys I can't understand why anyone in half decent shape without any big injuries should have to go bigger than a 7 0"? You can fit loads of volume into a board of that size-I mean loads! Like enough to glide into a wave easily without even trying.

Why wouldn't you?  Somehow there is this perception that shorter is always better, but is that always the case?  I said in my last post, "I think one of the hardest things to do, as a shaper making your own boards, is to put out of your mind what works best for anyone else, and just really see the reality of what is working best for you, and hone in on that."  So there's your answer.  I don't "have to" do anything, but if I've found a size that works best for me, be it 8 foot, or 10 foot, or 5' 11", then that is the general size that I should be focusing on to optimize my surfing experience, regardless of what size LTM or anyone else is riding.

Quote:
And Huck, I agree with you regarding the rails on the thick model that you have, One of my early and most favorite boards ever had accidental big boxy fat rails, I even had some friends say to me while walking down the beach 'what the hell are you riding?!! ' But that board went amazing!
 None of my boards have what I would call "big boxy fat rails", and as I said, walking down the beach no one even notices the volume I put in my boards.  If you keep the deck relatively flat to carry volume out further, as I have done on a couple shapes, then you will have a thicker rail, but I am not a fan of fat boxy rails myself.  So I dome my deck, but just out further, closer to the rail, the dome doesn't start at the stringer on those boards.

Quote:
I'd keep an open mind when it comes to rocker, personally I think that a change in the rocker could be a solution for keeping boards shorter and keeping paddling power and wave catching ability. My staged rocker (blended in) experiments are making my boards feel bigger, my standard all-round shortboard has aleays been 6 0, Im already down to 5 11, and I think I might even be able to take things down to 5 10 or 5 9 without losing any paddling ability. In fact I think they will catch waves better than my old 6 0's. But so far I have only tested ky test board 3 in really crappy conditions, so its difficult to know if there has been any performance trade-off. Excuse me for jumping in on a thread where perhaps I am not qualified, I just couldn't resist getting involved. LTM

I have a couple different rockers going on, the rockers I have are working for me, for the conditions I surf on a regular basis.  That's great that you found a rocker that's working for you.  I will probably attempt to fine tune my rockers, if I get the chance to buy enough blanks to build all the refinements in my head, hah!

Always glad to have participation in a thread, thats what makes the forum so much more lively than say a blog or a webpage.  The interaction is the key.  So thanks for chiming in!  Hope my explanations make sense.

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Huck's picture
Joined: 12/07/2009

L.I.T. wrote:

Regarding your friend; I'm younger than him, I'm not the kind of guy who needs a high-volume board due to being overweight or a beginner surfer. And I've just gone from my 6'4 HPSB (probably about 30 litres) to a 39 litre board.

I wised up to the value of volume back when I was in my teens/early twenties (which is why my old HPSB is 30 litres rather than in the low 20's like every other guys board who was of a similiar age back in those days).

Tell him he can have his cake (i.e. go to a shorter board) AND still eat it too (i.e. get MORE volume in the board rather than less, despite the length getting shorter) with the boards that are around these days.

He doesn't have to commit to it; just tell him to log on to the Firewire or Lost website, and use the volume calculator on it (**emphasize he has to be ABSOLUTELY HONEST when filling in his details, and it has to be his CURRENT weight, not what he thinks he might get to one day). Then go out and demo for a day something like the Lost Puddle Jumper or the Firewire Baked Potato at the size/volume suggested for him.

Make sure he swaps between his current board and the demo board every few sets (and preferably in conditions that he typically surfs in) so he can really feel the difference in what's possible.

It should only cost him about $40 or so. It'll be fun, and if nothing else, it'll get you (and me too I guess) off his back about the volume thing :)

Surfing should be fun. So why not get a board that's not only high performance, it makes it easy for you to surf it too?

And if he still refuses, well you can only lead a horse to water....

I've tried to convince others of not being afraid of pumping up the volume a little and had them point-blank refuse; no point stressing about it, and like you, I came to the same conclusion; every wave they miss is another one I can add to my waves for the day :)  :)

Cheers guys!

Well, funny how quickly things can change - just told you the other day my friend's mind was closed on the subject.  Today he comes up and says he had a rotten session, couldn't get in, maybe I was right about volume (I was getting plenty of waves).  So I said I have board you can borrow, 7-4, and he said he needs to take his board in to shop for ding repairs, so yes, he would like to borrow my board.

Cool, maybe I can convert him, haha.  Maybe even sell a board, but didn't say anything about that to him, lets see if he even likes it.  I love this board, but it doesn't match up to my magic three, I need to lose a few lbs for it, but he is already there.

This board has domed deck, thin rails, so volume is "hidden", left plenty in the middle.  But still a bit less than I currently prefer.

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mattwho's picture
Joined: 05/12/2014

Totally forgot about the "Gecko"

Your call, hope he likes it!

Eh what about the "Beachcomber"?

Are you waiting on big waves???

LOL, ROFUTGU (rolling on floor unable to get up)!

I am so very stoked on this exchange of info.

Up until today I was thinking something 9-1

had it down on the order and for some reason I just couldn't pull the trigger.

Later, it hit me as to why

I'm guessin' it is the length of the boards being discussed.

And that I really would like something I can "Wrestle" thru the surf.

BTW

Huck you mentioned gettin' "sucked thru the pier"

It is something about that place..

It doesn't break all that hard

BUT it moves a hell of a lot of water!

I'd rather paddle out on a big day at Rincon vs. the C rite spot!

Another reason I like the beach breaks, ah VERY small days!

Really searching earlier with the "new" contender shape

basically just pulled in nose, yeah?

Now, I have to laugh at myself!

I was of a mind a "certain shape" when I began the contender.

Got a hold of the 7-4 SP, laid out my thought.

And looked at it and the nose just seemed like a waste of foam

so I widened it.

Worked better than I thought.

And I was able to dial the rocker a bit.

I started thinking  about the 8-4 SPX

And in searching saw the 8-2 AX

If I cut off  2” of nose I’ll  have my rocker!

God moves in mysterious ways.

And that puppy is thick!!!

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I would rather be someone's shot of whiskey, than everyone's cup of tea.

www.mattysurfboards.com

Huck's picture
Joined: 12/07/2009

Well, beach breaks yeah you gotta wrestle through the surf.  Point breaks, you can do as nomastomas says, and time your paddle out, and hit the channels.  My bad experience was due to being way out of sync with the place.  I kinda had a feeling I wasn't gonna make it that day, but wasn't ready to go home if I didn't at least get a workout trying.

I did have the Beachcomber out in some sizeable stables' surf last winter.  5-8', thats about my limit.  Only caught a couple because it was pretty crowded, and I was being selective.  Caught one good set wave, rode it all the way from the top of the point at stables down to C st by the bathrooms.  Had a guy paddle up to me after and say wow that was a great wave - I figure that's a red-letter wave when that happens.  But right now I'm thinking I'd like to take the BB or WS on a day like that, I'm thinking they'd do great.

The beachcomber is 9' and lots of foam.  I'm not trying to wrestle my boards through whitewaters, I'm going with the nomastomas program.  If caught inside, I've even turned around and sat on the tail, like we used to in the old days.  Or bail and dive, no pride if there's no one nearby, works for me.  And with all that foam I can cover a lot of ground in a hurry if I need to.  My L.A. spot is not as hard to get out, like I say, Malibu either.

Haven't been washed through the pier, I turn around and get out when I get close.  But I've been washed down into that bay plenty of times.  Yeah, one of the few places you can end up a quarter mile further down the coast by the time you get out!  I knew you would know.  Big Rincon is another - and at high tide, it gets scary because you can end up on the highway lol!!  You know what I mean, those rocks down in the bay are scary looking when you're trying to get away from them and the current and whitewaters are telling you otherwise.  At our age we gotta really temper our ambitions, eh?  But when its on, you always feel like you gotta get out and get at least one, like nomastomas says, "one and done", hah!  That's an honest man right there.

I dunno what you got up your sleeve regarding that 8-2 AX, but I used the 8-2A twice, cut 2" off and made an 8 footer both times, but don't recall if it was all from the nose or not. Always enjoy your work.  And yeah, the 8-2A had some serious foam, I can't image what the AX is like - you going' SUP on us?  Kidding.

BTW, did you see this over in General Discussion?  This guy thinks like I'm thinking, "the middle finger. 8'10" x 25" x 4". Thruster, thinned out tail, you can sit with any longboard hog or SUPer outside wherever that may be on any particular day. weighs just under 15 lbs."

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jrandy's picture
Joined: 09/04/2012

From McDing to me on another thread, I think it goes along with BB30's 'the finger':

"If you were closer to the sorce(West Coast) you would really benefit from one of Millenium's longboard blanks.  They have several that would be a good starting point.  Also a couple of 9' gun blanks that would make a nice reeely long short board.  Download their catalog.  Lowel"   -J        
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http://pushheretosavealife.com/ Be safe, have fun. -J

Huck's picture
Joined: 12/07/2009

Thanks for that jrandy!

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Huck's picture
Joined: 12/07/2009

Well, my friend got possession of the green gecko - no wait, thats a frog on this one!  OK, Rich got the green frog, and it definitely wasn't love at first sight.  He was struggling with adapting to a whole different paradigm.  It wasn't a good morning to be on a new board, super high tide, waves pretty powerful but long boring lulls, insane crowd cuz everyone got the memo.  I saw his frustration, told him he could change it out for a 6-8 I have on mothballs also.  He thought long and hard about it, but said he wants to give it a chance.

Said he was able to get in early, but couldn't turn it.  Which has never been a problem for me.  But like I say, he's used to a whole different frame of reference.  I'm glad he's gonna be a trooper about it and give it another chance.  He texted me later and said he got one really good wave on it.  I think he will learn to love it if he really sticks with it, and I think it will take his surfing to a new level.  But who knows.

I had a few fun waves on the BB, but the crowd and high tide were making it tough.

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Huck's picture
Joined: 12/07/2009

OK, I'm just updating to entertain myself, not much happening on the forum that interests me.  With the new format, posting has come to a grinding halt, very little activity.

Anyway, my friend I loaned the board to texted me 'the board just not working out for me, can I borrow your 6' 8" instead?"

So - I suggested he move the fin cluster a little closer together.  But - surprise!  The problem isn't turning the board, its that he can't seem to catch waves with it.  His comment was "I've been having trouble catching the waves.  Paddle too early or too late.  Haven't found sweet spot given my weight and height."

That really puzzles me, never thought of the board as being difficult to catch waves with, but glad to loan him a 6-8 I've got laying around (that I can't use even if I wanted to).  Might give the Green Frog a go tomorrow morning if there are any waves, just to see if I can figure out what he's talking about.

He's only had it out two sessions, dawn patrol, and the crowds have been pretty thick and the high tides have been crazy high in the mornings lately, and the waves have been a little harder to get into as a result.  Anyway, the 6-8 will at least feel more familiar to him (hopefully), and maybe that will help.

Despite the crowd, I still managed to sneak a few good ones on the Banana Boat.

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nomastomas's picture
Joined: 06/23/2004

Damn moon! High-tide + already slope-y wave = frustration for us surf geezers* who need a little extra time to get up (actually, for most things we used to do quickly, without effort). The take-off point becomes ultra-congested, because everyone needs that same little ramp to launch, and the ramp keeps moving closer and closer to the rocks. I tend to ride my prone-board on those days, and catch the waves everyone else misses. When the tide becomes more manageable, I swap-out for one of my stand-up boards and go back out. I've had many a 4hr session doing just that.

(*Note to younger guys: Surf geezers are typically retired, and/or marginally employed. This allows us to surf when we want and for as long as we want or can, whichever comes first. And, next to the senior discount, that's a pretty good deal. We complain a lot about the ravages of old age, but we're still stoked and always looking forward to our next wave. Look for us in the lineup, we're the guys with the permanent wetsuit tan and the silver hair, just waiting for you to paddle in and go back to your job/your school/your girlfriend/your wife/your kids, whatever it is that keeps you out of the water. Then again, you might catch us "power napping" in between sessions in the bed of our trucks, or drinking coffee and eating doughnuts in the parking lot, talking about boards, 'cause we got the time to do just that. Yeah, we may kook-out more than you young guys, and truth be told, we're not nearly as good surfers as we used to be, but we manage to have a pretty damn good time at the beach anyway.)

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mattwho's picture
Joined: 05/12/2014

I feel for you 

in so much as trying and well beyond

something I would only put up with from a real friend.

Kudos and blessings on you!

I will say that it has been my experience jumping up

I mean from a smaller board to a longer one

that, yeah it may be harder to turn.

But I don't see a big enough jump to 

perhaps qualify that, in this instance.

that said, I will move on....

Right now, the first thing I am going to do is up date "Lit'l Sister" for Dustin.

BTW we are working in Huntington Beach.

And the feedback on my boards is almost too good to believe!

This kind of blends into my thoughts on the 8-0.

The board that Dustin raves about is my take on CI's Dumpster Diver.

A low level groveler and as such I reached out for a rail that had forgiveness and bite.

Now a days I like to call it the "oxymoron rail".

The ride report from today was just way too good!

And Boy is telling me that rail is killer!

Almost convinced I can die a happy man, HA!

Way back in 81 I did a rail I considered a "compound" rail,

Still have the last I made back then.

pulled it outta the rack.

And relived riding it...

1st ride, well, a long ago    Huntington pier.

a winner! Rode that board form San Diego to Pacifica

Oahu and Maui...

Here is the WOW factor...

Jezz 81? I'm 30! 

Well in retrospect, I made this board, then I was already big so the "how to" in a  6-0

with the same thought of what we are discussing.

An interesting side note.

This board became my answer to Simon Anderson's 3

See pix, interesting, no?

Me? NO Velzy!!!

Shit NEVER spun out!

However several "chin dents”, ah from knee buckles!

Now...

Here is what I am thinking.

Got the template down.

The 8-2 AX is the best choice.

Damn 4 7/16" thick!

Right off the domed deck is #1, only I can't see it.

So, still thinking this thru from all angles and some outside the box.

Really absorbed a refreshing boost in my stoke on results from so many years ago

when I was the test pilot yeah?

And I get after Huck for not having confidence?

Aloha Nui

Surf like there is no tomorrow

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I would rather be someone's shot of whiskey, than everyone's cup of tea.

www.mattysurfboards.com

L.I.T.'s picture
Joined: 10/08/2014

Huck wrote:

Well, funny how quickly things can change - just told you the other day Rich's mind was closed on the subject.  Today he comes up and says he had a rotten session, couldn't get in, maybe I was right about volume (I was getting plenty of waves).

:) Well waddaya know!

Glad to hear he's been giving the Gecko a proper go. Bummer to hear he's not a fan of it though; here's hoping he likes the 6'8" and you get to make the sale -> ought to help with funding the next board this whole thread is about in the first place. Plus you'd get to see on a permanent basis, someone flying by on a board that you made with a big 'ol grin on their face. Stoke comes in many forms :)

If it turns out the 6'8" doesn't agree with him either, give him a piece of paper with the following links to reviews on the Puddle Jumper and ask him to have a look at them - Matt Biolos would be about the same age as Rich, he looks like he's a big guy who's (from the clips I've seen of him surfing) is a good surfer and in decent shape rather than being of pro-level fitness and ability; in other words, your average committed surfer in his 40's. Best of all he's trying to design high-performance high-volume boards for guys at the same stage of life and ability as he is: I'm guessing Rich is one of those guys.

1) Matt Biolos presents Puddle Jumper in Lib Tech Construction:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qq7YoYsNcPE

2) Shredding Hippie review of the Puddle Jumper:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-B7DugAmF6o

3) Matt Biolos presents the Puddle Jumper on CompareSurboards.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cd6ez71cFhs

4) CompareSurfboards Puddle Jumper review by Benny:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-08omZHtHY

So if Rich is after a high-performance groveller/small wave board for those days when his 6'6" just isn't quite cutting it, the PJ sounds like it could well be just the ticket for him.

Like I said earlier, he doesn't have to commit; he can always demo one first. And if he's got the cash to pick up a PJ as a 2nd board for the grovel-days, it's not like getting one would mean he has to totally abandon his 6'6" and never ride it again - it'd still be his primary board.

FYI; SME (Sony Music Entertainment) appears to have blocked the youtube video in Link 1) from being viewed over here sometime in the last day or two - guess they must have used some music in the clip that Sony owns, without getting permission for it. Hopefully it can still be viewed in the U.S. -> check out the late drop at 1:20 on about a 10-to-12-foot-face wave at what looks like could be the Wedge. Impressive stuff for a board that's originally designed for grovelly conditions.

Link 2)'s not bad; the "Shredding Hippie" guy plays up the "stoned hippy" thing a bit (which admittedly I don't mind too much; hey, I'm easily entertained!), but once he gets into it he's pretty good with the info he comes out with. What's more, he's a guy who (like everyone else on this thread) is getting older but is trying like hell to avoid having to give up on riding a shortboard and is after something that'll paddle well for him, get him into waves early, while still being  something that he can really shred on (i.e. still has all the performance and abilities of an HPSB).

Link 3)'s pretty similiar to Link 1 - Matt gets fairly specific on the design details, but no actual surfing footage of the board in this one though :(

I think I've probably watched too many reviews about this board - it's got me frothing about it a bit and I haven't even ridden one. And it's not like there aren't other boards out there designed for similiar conditions. There's heaps - e.g. CI Average Joe, Firewire Sweet/Baked Potato, Joistik Cab Sav, etc, etc, etc.

So anyway, good on Rich for breaking out of the low-volume mindset and giving something else a go for those smaller, frustrating days, and apologies to yourself for not responding to your own questions to me from a few posts back - I'll get to 'em, hopefully tomorrow.

Cheers!

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Huck's picture
Joined: 12/07/2009

nomastomas - another great post!  You have a great attitude, and I think that's a huge factor in staying in the game as we age into the senior years.  You talk about donuts and coffee, but I'm wondering if there aren't some herbal supplements and health foods in that regimen of yours, you sound too healthy and stoked.  Whatever it is you're doing, keep it up, you're definitely doing something right!

Mattwho - thanks, Rich is a good guy, but a typical surfer in that he doesn't analyze his equipment much, just goes with the trends.  Really surprised he had a hard time catching waves with a 7-4, but it may go to my earlier comments that managing more foam is an acquired skill, appreciating more foam an acquired taste.  

I have really been thinking about this lately, my initial discomfort with the extra foam, to my currently really liking it.  You're right, the Wing Squad is too thick, but somehow "too thick" is working for me, can't really explain it.  Even the guys who advocate thick boards, its usually for heavier surfers than me, so I'm not sure why I'm liking it so much.  The Golden Standard doesn't have all that thickness / volume, so I'm not addicted to it.  

But for reasons I can't explain I have been growing increasingly comfortable / confident with the excess foam on the WS and BB.  Surfing is such a subjective activity, sometimes it almost seems to defy reason.  Nevertheless, I continue to have good sessions on my "too thick" boards, so I guess that's all that matters for now.  Except for that human itch to get it a little bit better on the next one, LOL.

The oxymoron rail sounds interesting, are you going to share pics, or is it in the "secret sauce" category?  And do I understand correctly you are going to make another board with the interesting fin configuration shown in the pic?  Very cool looking board.  And congrats on the ride report - nice to hit a home run, eh!

L.I.T. - the 6-8 is not my creation, its a board I picked up at a yardsale and did some repairs to.  Rich has it now, and says it is working out better than the 7-4, he's more comfortable with a famililar size / shape.  If I get the opportunity, I will pass along the info you shared, he's real quiet and so I'm not sure how open he is to discussing surfboard options.  Don't worry about the questions, I've already forgotten what they were!  Just glad to have some participation / conversation on this thread.

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mattwho's picture
Joined: 05/12/2014

What happened to "Quote"???

"But for reasons I can't explain I have been growing increasingly comfortable / confident with the excess foam on the WS and BB.  Surfing is such a subjective activity, sometimes it almost seems to defy reason.  Nevertheless, I continue to have good sessions on my "too thick" boards, so I guess that's all that matters for now.  Except for that human itch to get it a little bit better on the next one, LOL."

Thick= float=more waves.

"The oxymoron rail sounds interesting, are you going to share pics, or is it in the "secret sauce" category? "

Funny thing I was fooling around just before signing on.

Just really tinkering with "volume management" photo 1.

"And do I understand correctly you are going to make another board with the interesting fin configuration shown in the pic?  Very cool looking board."

No plans on doing the Velzy Vee fin again allthu it works very well.

And the photo doesn't show the rails well , which was what I was thinking.

And the truth is back then

I was pissey with the "truster" blowing the twins all to hell.

So my in rebellion

if three is good and so on... Probably the best board I ever made.

2nd photo the oxymoron a bitch to glass and sand.

Got some bucks, and they are slated for the SPX blank.

Just plain nothing fancy and red foam.

Stoked..

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I would rather be someone's shot of whiskey, than everyone's cup of tea.

www.mattysurfboards.com

Huck's picture
Joined: 12/07/2009

mattwho wrote:

That rail drawing, and the ride report with it, is amazing! Way to think outside the box! - and it paid off in spades.  You've got my creative juices going, from looking at that pic.

And the board in the sketch looks very very cool. 

mattwho wrote:

r.e. "thick = float = more waves" - yeah but it's not that cut and dried, or everyone would be going thick. There's a prevailing aversion to thick boards, their appeal isn't always obvious.  For Rich, it seems more volume = less waves, so why is it opposite for me?  

Or the inverse, if more float = more waves, why then is it the opposite for Rich?  I'm still mulling that over.  So far my only theory is that he lacked confidence on the floatier shape, and hence paddled with less conviction - does that sound plausible?

Another factor not to be overlooked is that there is a law of diminishing returns, and at some point the excess foam will create a "corky-ness" that hinders getting into waves, or at the very least, no longer helps.  I think this is what you see happening when a big ol' SUP boat paddles for a wave, and just ends up floating up the face and over the back while the wave passes by below him.

While I can't believe the 7' 4" green frog comes anywhere near this point (especially for a 160 lb. surfer like Rich), I am willng to admit my BB and WS might.  I will say, to a certain extent, these boards are easier to tool around the lineup with, but not aways all that much easier to get into a wave with.  The volume does seem to help - but its still a matter of placement in relation to the curl.  I can't put my finger on the reason exactly, maybe the extra volume adds stability, but I do feel my pop-up is improved on the thicker boards, and that's a huge factor at my age.

Getting in easy / early seems to be more a function of length, and perhaps rocker, than volume.  That would explain why the much thinner GS catches waves as easy as the big boy boards, with it's somewhat flatter rocker and slightly greater length.  Nevertheless, as I said I am becoming more comfortable with the extra foam, and no longer find it annoying, like I did at first.  And my wave count is good with my 'too thick' boards, I haven't had the problems Rich experienced with the much smaller / thinner board.

------------------

BTW, for me, the quote option did show up for awhile, now it has disappeared. Weird. You can still add it manually.

elmer fudd wrote:
kwazy wabbit!

------------------

Check this out, from the erbb (surfer mag) forum:

Quote:
"the dreamsicle"  Stretch's first comment to me was, "Foam is your friend" -  Buzzgun - 9' x 22" x 3.75.
The size, shape, thickness very similar to my Beachcomber fun gun - and the transition from thick deck to thinner rail very similar to your drawing above Mattwho.  I figure if we're anywhere near the same page as a shaper the caliber of Stretch, we're on the right track!  I really like this board.  Wonder if its a quad - someone on the erbb asked for a bottom shot, I'll be watching for response.

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mattwho's picture
Joined: 05/12/2014

Eh! Braddas

Sorry I'm so slow right now.

This is perhaps a good change for me...

Normally I would have a blank and just lock myself away with it.

It really is a thing about seeing the board within.

Not quite this time!

And this only my thoughts.

The blank has been chosen but on ordered.

Hoping FGH has one in stock (using stock rocker).

Thanks for presenting assorted ideas.

Here is some more of my notes.

Keep the stoke!

Added BONUS!

"Copper" the real Malibu "Pigdog"!!!

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I would rather be someone's shot of whiskey, than everyone's cup of tea.

www.mattysurfboards.com

Huck's picture
Joined: 12/07/2009

Cool!  I love the concept sketches!!  The board looks awesome.  I like the comment about finding the board within the blank, but how its not the case with this one.  Shows the challenge of a new design that pushes the limits.  I think, once you hit on the right shape, it will follow your usual pattern.

Here's my 2 cents, feel free to consider or ignore what I say, just talking off the top of my head.  I like the stussy profile better of the two, because its more subtle.  I say the more blended, the less of an obvious "bump", the better.  

I built two of the humped deck boards, and ended up less than pleased with them, maybe for aesthetic reasons.  In one case, the offset deck hindered my popup - I hadn't realized until then that I grab the rails when I pop up, and the bump made it awkward to grab in my usual spot.  

I think Stretch's rail-grooves, or "love handles" are partially there to create a break between thick deck and thinner rail.  But they also add a better grip for hanging on, or pushing up on the pop up, for rail grabbers like me.  And they look stylish.

Also, I would consider the center of mass under where you stand, vs. where you paddle from, so perhaps a bit further back, depending on your outline.  I say this because c.g. while standing is a real performance factor, c.g. while paddling is irrelevant once you're up and going.  True, it might enhance paddling a bit, but I don't see it as a big enough factor to affect design.

Again, that's just me, and there's way more I don't know than what I do know, so take it with a grain of salt.  

Here's another thought you have the luxury of considering, with all that foam: concave deck.  Since you're exploring "sculptural" approaches to the deck, give this some thought.  A few guys were really raving about this at one time, including John Harris, an Aussie shaper of some repute.  http://freeglidesurfboards.com/

My buddy Bruce (another foam-aholic) makes his own boards, and he's into this, esp. in the chest area, for comfort while paddling.  

If those busted ribs of yours are a factor at all, you might consider scooping out a bit under the chest for paddling comfort.  Just a thought.

I just think its cool to see the creative gears in motion, kinda getting excited to see this one come to fruition.  The 8-2A rocker has been working very well for me at my go-to spots, I'm thinking it would work great for beach breaks too, its actually probably a bit more nose rocker than I need, but has worked great for the occasional late drop.

I'm hoping to get some pics of the two big boy foam fatties, the BB and WS in action next week.  I mean, the pics were taken over the past few weeks, supposedly, but I haven't seen them, hoping to get a look this next week.  You bet if I get some decent shots I'll post 'em up here.

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mattwho's picture
Joined: 05/12/2014

Wow!

Clean forgot about the Ugly stepsister!

I also like the grab rail idea as that comes into the solution.

Like I said at the start "eyes and mind wide open".

After more review the 8-2 A is really all I need.

Most he X factor is just gonna come off any way.

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I would rather be someone's shot of whiskey, than everyone's cup of tea.

www.mattysurfboards.com

Huck's picture
Joined: 12/07/2009

I just keep liking it more and more!  I bet your feet will be further forward 'tho, with all that foam and length you're gonna end up standing more toward the center, I think that's why guys like Joe Blair are moving their fin clusters forward on the "big boy" boards.

http://jblairsurf.com/surfboards/big-guy-surfboards

BTW, here's some more insight on the Stretch "Buzz Gun" I posted earlier.  Definitely a quad, no thruster option, fins almost look like the cant is same fronts and backs.  The money shot is the tail looking at fin plugs, that's gold to me.  The poster is bigger and heavier than me, so that fits what I said about even the 'big-foam' guys aren't using so much foam for a guy like me, at 175, but so far its been working out.

I know I can back some foam out and still have fun, but its good to know the max limit is higher than most people think.  Anyway, this is definitely a 'big-foam' board, at 3 3/4" thick, 22" wide, 9' long, amazingly close to my fun gun dimensions and shape - so that quad shot is a big help, because I'd like to add that option.

These pics might be big, I'll resize them on the weekend when I get back to my computer, if I get a chance.  For more, go to http://forum.surfermag.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2404099&page=7

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mattwho's picture
Joined: 05/12/2014

I just keep liking it more and more!  I bet your feet will be further forward 'tho, with all that foam and length you're gonna end up standing more toward the center, I think that's why guys like Joe Blair are moving their fin clusters forward on the "big boy" boards.

Funny thing as I was just discussing rear foot placement with Dustin today.

And the humor here is, even when I was riding short boards, I placed my traction pads about 3-4" ahead of the fins.

I think it was me growing up on longboards; I just surf that way, kinda projecting longer arcs.

Eh, Dustin likes 'em way back,  yeah I put the leash plug back as far as I can.

BTW, here's some more insight on the Stretch "Buzz Gun" I posted earlier.  Definitely a quad, no thruster option, fins almost look like the cant is same fronts and backs.  The money shot is the tail looking at fin plugs, that's gold to me.  The poster is bigger and heavier than me, so that fits what I said about even the 'big-foam' guys aren't using so much foam for a guy like me, at 175, but so far it’s been working out

Big guys????

Well to be kind that is what I consider myself.

Ha-ha HA.

Look at any old timer like my sorry ass

Ah, such as Mike and Corky

It is hard to maintain a “boyish” figure as you

age or become ancient.

I really like the placement of those quads!

Just I am on a different mission with cants.

Picked up some supplies today!

Couldn’t wait to get at it…

Got home started my gardening chores and BAMB!

Rainging hard.

Photo log of what happened as I took shelter in the shop…

Maybe shape tomorrow.

Oh, single concave.

So Stoked!

Over

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I would rather be someone's shot of whiskey, than everyone's cup of tea.

www.mattysurfboards.com

L.I.T.'s picture
Joined: 10/08/2014

Huck wrote:

I bet your feet will be further forward 'tho, with all that foam and length you're gonna end up standing more toward the center, I think that's why guys like Joe Blair are moving their fin clusters forward on the "big boy" boards.

I'm glad you mentioned this; it relates to something I've been meaning to post for almost a week now (ever since you mentioned Rich's problems with the 7'4" Gecko/Frog where he said "I've been having trouble catching the waves.  Paddle too early or too late.  Haven't found sweet spot given my weight and height.").

Like you, as soon as I read that I was puzzled that he was finding it harder to get onto waves with a 7'4" rather than his 6'6" - it ought to be the other way around. But after thinking about it for a few minutes I developed a theory as to why that was happening - didn't mention it until now, as you'd have to either be able to watch him attempting to surf the Frog or at least watch some footage of it to confirm or disprove the theory, but hey I might as well mention it - if Huck manages to get out in the surf with Rich and see what's actually going on, he might be able to do something about it.

Anyway, here goes; it occurred to me that Rich is different from all the rest of us on this thread (Huck, Mattwho, Nomastomas, myself etc) in that (according to Huck's description of him) he only ever rides one board; the 6'6" HPSB. One board, regardless of the conditions, and he's been doing that for a long time. The rest of us all have quivers and we ride different boards of different styles, lengths and volumes according to what the conditions are like and what kind of surfing we feel like doing that day.

Because of that we're all accustomed to adjusting our riding style to accomodate the characteristics of the board we decide to ride that day. But not Rich, same board, same characteristics, day in, day out, so he's probably also a bit set in his ways as to how he rides, and it's been so long since he's ridden anything different he may have lost touch with how to ride a longer board.

Because of that he's trying to ride the Frog in exactly the same way as he rides his HPSB.

But the Frog's more like a funboard than a HPSB. To oversimplify a bit, it's like an HPSB, but with an extra foot of board length inserted in the middle of the board. What's more unlike your standard HPSB which usually has it's wide point around the middle of the board, it looks like (although it could also just be the camera angle) the wide point in the Frog is slightly forward of middle.

Huck wrote:

What this means is that the wide point is at least a foot further down the board than Rich is used to on his HPSB and to get his weight between the positions of optimum trim (over the wide point) and optimum turning ability (i.e. with the back foot right back over the fin cluster) he's going to have to "walk the board" a little as if it were a longboard.

Not something he's probably used to doing - the really advanced guys on HPSB's drop their rear foot back to get it as close to the tail edge as possible just before cranking a super-sharp turn, and sometimes they'll scoot both feet forward a little to get into warp-speed trim when lining up for a barrel, but most of the time, you can get away with just putting a bit more weight on your front foot or your rear foot to go between optimum trim and optimum turning positions. And a lot of intermediate-to-advanced HPSB riders do just that; they put both feet in one spot on the board at takeoff and never shift them a millimetre for the rest of the ride.

So here's what I'm guessing happens; Rich is likely paddling with his chest over that wide point (for optimum paddling trim) and which is the right thing to be doing. Then when the wave starts to pick him up he tries to take off just like he would on his short board (i.e. pretty much straight down the face, and then attempting a hard bottom turn in the trough to convert all that speed he's gained from the vertical drop into horizontal speed that'll shoot him down the line and back up onto the face).

Problem is when he pops up onto his feet he's placing his feet in the same position under his body as he would when he's riding his HPSB; but because his chest is up over that wide point, his feet are landing near the wide point; good for maximum trim speed once he's heading down the line, but that's not what he needs right now; his back foot is now a good 12" too far forward to sink the tail and crank that bottom turn when he gets to the trough; as a result the board responds sluggishly when he tries to turn it and it slows and bogs down before it's turned enough to catch up with the curl again.

What's more going straight down the face with his weight so far forward, there's a fair chance the board will pearl when it hits the trough (if he'd had his back foot over the rear fins it would have levered the nose of the board up and helped prevent it from burying itself in the trough).

Hence the conclusion in both cases that he took off too late.

So he tries to paddle in earlier, but drops off the back because he actually had it right the first time around, but just didn't pop up with his rear foot back far enough to make the drop and make the turn HPSB style.

Rich's comment that "he was able to get in early, but couldn't turn it" from his first session seems to validate my theory a bit. But you'd have to see him in action to verify it properly.

So I think your suggestion of tightening up the fin cluster would have helped him make the takeoff a little better, but most of all I think he needs to get his rear foot back over the fin cluster on the takeoff if he wants to attempt HPSB style takeoffs on the Frog.

But the best approach for the Frog I think would be for him to do a "J-paddle" where as the wave starts to pick him up, he starts paddling off to one side and down the line so that when he pops to his feet the nose of the board is already pointed down the line a fair bit and his feet will be over the wide point and in maximum trim position - perfect for the gentler angle the board is now descending the face at, and what's more his feet are in the right position to do a long-arc driving turn  at the bottom of the wave because there's now no need for a hard bottom turn when he gets to the trough, and because of the shallower angle into the trough there's also less likelihood of pearling.

To ride the Frog really well I'm guessing he's probably going to have to learn to walk the board; back onto the tail for cranking the turns, forward to speed-trim, and at the appropriate point in between for longer-arc driving turns.

This all may be a moot point seeing as it sounds like Rich has moved onto the 6'8", but if it turns out it's not catching the smaller stuff as well as he'd like, you might be able to convince him to put in another session with the Frog and test out the theory. If so, would be interested to hear about the results.

Anyway, just my thoughts about it. Hope it helps.

Cheers!

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Huck's picture
Joined: 12/07/2009

Mattwho - Corky rides a big boy foamaholic special, I have video clip of him in Mexico, have to see if I can find it.

r.e. foot placement - I never even touch the pad when I'm surfing, lol.

-----------

The board is looking awesome, this one's gonna be special, I can feel it!

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Huck's picture
Joined: 12/07/2009

L.I.T. - lotta thought went into that!  Some good stuff there, too.  You're right on about him riding one board all the time, that's the crux of the matter.  He's happy on the 6-8, that's the extent of my involvement, lol.  I think the extra foam would have helped his surfing, but I can't force the issue.  I like your point about the J-paddle, I do that a lot, just never had a name for it!

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Huck's picture
Joined: 12/07/2009

My next few boards are gonna be the "Swan Song Series", boards for the final decade.

I have six outlines drawn up, have to mull them over, will post some pics when I get a chance.  All of them 8' by 22", just because.

Thinking about rails, bottom, fins, etc. lots goes into making the magic happen.

The criteria:

  • easy paddler
  • stable for popup
  • performance = speed, easy turning, late drops from delayed reflexes
  • other than standard off the shelf longboard

I'm contemplating starting a thread in General Discussion to see if anyone has any helpful input, but it'll probably be a train wreck, haha.  Nah, I guess not.

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L.I.T.'s picture
Joined: 10/08/2014

Huck wrote:
L.I.T. - lotta thought went into that! Some good stuff there, too.
:) Cheers - hope I wasn't just posting something that was obvious to everyone else on the thread.
Huck wrote:
He's happy on the 6-8, that's the extent of my involvement, lol.
:) Good stuff, as long as he's happy and having fun with it, that's the main thing.
Huck wrote:
I like your point about the J-paddle, I do that a lot, just never had a name for it!
:) Yeah, I do it too.... and we're in good company; I've got footage of Kelly Slater and Tom Curren doing the exact same thing. Gerry Lopez even wrote about how Jock Sutherland tipped him off about it to help Gerry make the drop at Pipeline on his longboard the first time Gerry ever tried surfing there. Cheers all!

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L.I.T.'s picture
Joined: 10/08/2014

Huck wrote:

My next few boards are gonna be the "Swan Song Series", boards for the final decade.

Garbage. I reckon there'll be another series after the "Swan Song" lot; you're someone who shapes for the sheer fun of it; so you just won't be able to resist making some more!

So what'll the series after this one be called, "the Walking (the Board) Undead Series" perhaps? :)  :)

Cheers all.

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mattwho's picture
Joined: 05/12/2014

Garbage. I reckon there'll be another series after the "Swan Song" lot; you're someone who shapes for the sheer fun of it; so you just won't be able to resist making some more! :)

So what'll the series after this one be called, "the Walking (the Board) Undead Series" perhaps? :)  :)

:) Cheers all.

L.I.T…

Right on!!!

I'll go with Geriatric HPSB!

Got the bottom roughed in and the rails started.

OMG.

Mass foam.

Pulled a trick outta my bag, (Velzyism).

Tomorrow more...

Got the “grip zone” down.

And some dowel.

Love it to pieces…

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I would rather be someone's shot of whiskey, than everyone's cup of tea.

www.mattysurfboards.com

Huck's picture
Joined: 12/07/2009

The next series after the swan song series will be the Shuffleboard Series.  Followed by the Soylent Greenroom Series.

matty - wow, that thing looks like it means BUSINESS! 

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L.I.T.'s picture
Joined: 10/08/2014

Huck wrote:

The next series after the swan song series will be the Shuffleboard Series. Followed by the Soylent Greenroom Series.

:) Not bad - I'll give points for that.

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L.I.T.'s picture
Joined: 10/08/2014

mattwho - 'like the way you're getting stuck into that 8'2"A.

mattwho wrote:

Got the bottom roughed in and the rails started.

OMG.

Mass foam.

Probably a good thing there is so much foam; what's your plan for thickness remaining at the stringer? -> with a concave bottom and a possibly concave deck above it, you may need a nice thick blank to begin with in order to make sure there's still enough thickness left at the end to keep the board strong enough to handle a lip coming down in the middle of it. And with a step-down rail around the edges I'm guessing it'll take away from the strength that little bit more.

On the other hand the deck channels it looks like you're planning on the inboard part of the step-down rail might hopefully bring back that strength that might be lost in thinning down the rails.

Meh, go for it Matt - you only live once.

Will be very interested to hear how this one performs for you.

Cheers!

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LiveTheMoment's picture
Joined: 06/27/2014
In reference to the 8 2A blank, I only just shaped a 7 7A blank a few days ago, jeez those blanks are HEAVY! Although mine probably still has a lot of stringer weight left in it at 3 1/4 thick. Concave deck might help keep the weight down quite a bit (If weight is likely to bother you) if you are removing more stringer??
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Huck's picture
Joined: 12/07/2009

banana boat pics

wing squad pic

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mattwho's picture
Joined: 05/12/2014

Nice photos!

Love the WS pix concentration is king!

BB, bitchen looking waves.

Ah, 4 ft Hawaiian

West Coast?

Overhead.

Go figure.

Thanks for the share...

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I would rather be someone's shot of whiskey, than everyone's cup of tea.

www.mattysurfboards.com

Huck's picture
Joined: 12/07/2009

Thanks Matty!  You gotta know it was packed the day of the BB shot, all the "hot" guys out, so I had my doubts I'd get anything at all.  Was tickled pink to score this one, did finally get snaked toward the inside, but I had the sweetest part of the wave to myself.

So this represents huge progress for me, and I attribute a lot of it to the Banana Boat, and especially the "too thick" aspect of the design - gets me in early and solid, gives me, the 60 year old senior citizen from the sticks, the confidence to paddle out with the locals and the youngsters and score a few under their noses.  I know I can improve a lot in my surfing, and in my board shapes, but I feel great to have even gotten to this point.

These pictures kinda represent why I'm getting into these big boy shapes, and having a blast.

I know you were saying 'how can you have performance and thick rails at the same time', I'm hoping the WS pic shows that you can turn these beasts, even sink a rail a bit if you concentrate hard enough LOL, I had some turns on both boards the photog didn't capture, nothing epic, but for me it was, because as I learn to ride these boards I'm finding they turn better than you would think.

BTW, that was IMO one of the best waves of the day, but no one was calling it "overhead" wise guy, you kamaainas are too tough, haha.  I checked my post for this day, I said "size dropped a bit today but still some sets coming through in morning -and I might get some photos from today, I should know by next week, will post them up if I do."

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