Hey John maybe that's just a personal issue, rather than a fair generalization, i.e. I have a harder time getting around sections on a longboard, personally. That's one of the things I like about riding my shorter (midlength) boards, vs. riding my longboard. Maybe I need to try some different fins, like the one in the photo? What longboard fin do you recommend for projection in a turn?
Hi Huck -
My general theory is something with a wide base and/or longer trailing tip. In actual practice there is a point of diminishing returns where you'll be 'dragging skeg.'
I'm brainstorming something a little kinky right now... an asymmetrically foiled single with a bit of toe-in - obviously for a wave with a consistent directional breaking pattern, a right point for example.
haha, that sounds wild! I probably should try some different fins, and see what happens. I have avoided that for the most part, as fins can be pretty expensive, I can almost buy a blank for the cost of some fins. And you know, I'm itching to get another blank or two ...or three... :-)
nomastomas wrote: I turn 68 in a couple of weeks and here’s what I’ve come to accept:
1. I need more volume than ever. As far as wave-catching goes at a crowded, competitive point-break, volume is the great equalizer. At a certain point, EPS/Epoxy becomes the core/shell of choice, despite its extra cost.
2. I need more nose rocker than ever. Despite my daily dose of push-ups, sit-ups and stretching, I get to my feet slower than at any other time in my life. Those quick-twitch muscles have gone to the same place as my short-term memory. A little extra nose-rocker buys me the added time I need.
3. Sometimes, one good wave is enough. Especially on a big, heavy day…nothing wrong with one-and-done.
4. Tail-V, especially on LBs, is the path to “performance”. Turning ability is the cornerstone of performance by anyone’s standard. Having a shape that turns responsively allows the rider to do more than just trim.
5. Sometimes just trimming is all I want to do.
6. Heavy, wide, single-fin, “old school” logs suck, no matter how “cool” the kids think they are. How did I manage to forget that?
6. I must focus on my current abilities and disabilities, and shape to that. Doesn’t matter what I use to ride, not 30 yrs ago, not 10yrs ago, not even last year.
7. Doesn’t matter how old or how young you are, how well or how poorly you surf, how good your equipment or how bad your equipment is, somebody is probably going to drop in on you. Get over it….
8. Some days, its better to just go fishing. Surfing on small days, weekends, holidays, DOH+ days carry a much higher probability for frustration and disappointment. Don’t need it, don’t want it.
So a bit more meditating and reflecting, especially on this point: " I need more volume than ever. As far as wave-catching goes at a crowded, competitive point-break, volume is the great equalizer".
I started off on my volume quest with the 9' version of the Golden Standard, with fatter rails, no pinched rails like the GS. A foot more in length, 2" more width, and volume all the way out to the rails. I liked it, still do, its one of my quiver favorites.
Then came a high volume board that I called the Banana Boat. I liked it, but in truth, haven't spent much time on it (I have so many boards). Nevertheless, I figured if some is good, more is better, so next I went with a super thick super high volume winged swallowtail ("the Wing Squad") based roughly on the Banana Boat, but with pulled in nose and different tail. Both quads.
The Banana Boat was based somewhat on Tom Mahady's "lineup killer". The Wing Squad ended up taking notes from the Rusty Big Cat, although my shape is my own. And maybe a nod to Joe Blair for emboldening me to go with extreme volume.
In a sense, the Wing Squad is a concept board, taking certain ideas to an extreme, to see what they yield. The idea is an 8' x 22.75" board, nearly a longboard at that size, and then making it very thick, high volume, so in effect, it has the volume of a longboard. But with a pulled in nose that is definitely not a longboard nose, and an overall template more in line with a smaller performance oriented board. I guess the concept might be called a sort of a longboard that's not a longboard, or maybe a high performance longboard in disguise.
To get all that volume, I had to make some steep rails, which were part of the concept. Thick board (3.75"!), not a lot of dome, volume all the way out, then a real steep curved bevel down at the rails, to a small radius and tuck. A big guy might be able to bury a rail with this board, I don't think I could. You have to hold the board to appreciate how extreme the thickness and rails are, pictures don't tell the whole story. You wrap your hands around the rail and there's just so much foam there. Like I say, feels like an SUP rail.
So its made to be a paddler, get up on plane quick, and hopefully be faster than a longboard. I wanted this thing to be almost like a small SUP, and it is. Riding it again the past two days (small waves), I'm convinced that the concept is working, even 'tho there is room for improvement.
I really can catch waves a lot easier with all that foam, and the wide tail. The nose makes steep or late drops easier than on a longboard. The board is fast, and more maneuverable than my single fin longboard. I'm still learning how to ride it, and how to turn it
Being my first winged surfboard, I was skeptical of the "pivot point" hype regarding the wings, but they do seem to aid in turning. Its an "outside the box" shape that takes a bit of getting used to. Part of the problem for me is that I have to remember to walk the board like a longboard, its too much foam to stay in one place on the board.
So I'm thinking, on one of my iterations, to maybe mix some of these design features in with the Golden Standard. Lower the volume (thickness) to somewhere between the two, make the board a little narrower than the 22.75" of the Wing Squad, a little wider than the 21" of the GS, keep the pulled in nose, wide tail with wings and swallowtail, keep the rails and bottom shape, keep the quad setup.
I'm going to conclude this ramble by saying that one of the mysteries is that at 2.75" thick my 8-4 paddles and catches waves just as well as my thicker boards, and as well as the nine foot version of itself. But then, that's subjective, isn't it?
Absolutely agree with all you stated.
Volume, rocker and outline.
IMHO both the wing squad and the Gold standard
Through me into condendrum as well.
I lean towards the WS @ 8ft.
The pulled in nose and wings are “Da Kine”
BTW, what is your take on the quads???
I am interested because
Well quads although an aged concept
Is worthy of pursuit.
In your correspondence with Mellnor
I noted your wish to “project “or make a “down the line” point surf type turn.
Most folk (truster,etc.) use a cant @ 5 deg
Which as a blend in the rule I live by more cant more vertical and vise versa
Beach breaks 6-9
Quads, that is
“So I'm thinking, on one of my iterations, to maybe mix some of these design features in with the Golden Standard. Lower the volume (thickness) to somewhere between the two, make the board a little narrower than the 22.75" of the Wing Squad, a little wider than the 21" of the GS, keep the pulled in nose, wide tail with wings and swallowtail, keep the rails and bottom shape, keep the quad setup.
I'm going to conclude this ramble by saying that one of the mysteries of the Golden Standard is that at 2.75" thick it paddles just as well and catches waves just as well as all the high volume boards, and as well as the nine foot version of itself. But then, that's subjective, isn't it?”
You and I seek the same goal
Catch wave early (volume)
Make the drop (pulled in nose and rocker) with a few popping noises coming from old bones.
And last performance.
The last is almost “a bridge too far”
By that I mean
How in the Hell do you get volume and still have a rail that works?
As you no doubt know the flow of water over the rail is very important for speed and performance.
I believe Brewer said it
Basically the best rail is equal all the way ‘round.
Eh, I could be wrong.
But “back in the early 68-70 underground”
I learned a few weird ideas one that really worked was
Shape in the bottom (flat)
Only instead of banding
Just take a hand saw and cut
From scribed line (rail) to top of stringer.
Came out with a 1//2” rail all the way around.
Single fin W.A.V.E. set days
Single fin with Greenough stage 3 fin
One wicked ass rides made 3 in my Pop’s garage!
BTW prior to MP’s “Camel” and very painful to paddle…
Sorry now I’m rambling!
Point is RAILS.
The blank I am looking at is close to 4” thick @ 9-3
Yeah, plenty of float!
Ya know me and this board will be a single concave quad.
Need a laugh?
The only quad I have ridden is my Kneeboard.
Which in time “Sonny”
Well, I just kept getting stuck in that position
In challenging surf, that is.
Back to the rail…
Still thinking of how to possibly find a solution.
Running on now…
I’ll close with a spy shot of Mere Made concept…
Ah, love her
Maybe just the rail….
I would rather be someone's shot of whiskey, than everyone's cup of tea.
Hi Matt -
That one looks a bit like my friend Taylor's board...
Taylor is pushing the limits....
For some reason that idea brought up memories…
OK Matty, here's what I'm currently thinking: People tend to be afraid of volume. Volume is a friend to the paddler, but dealing with it on the wave face, or caught inside on a set, it can seem bulky or clunky and scary. I think its the main detraction for people who hate riding longboards. I think you have to learn to appreciate it, learn to manage it in the lineup. I hear of people getting shoulder injuries from trying to duck dive a longboard, or talking about the board being an aircraft carrier, etc.
My point of view is that volume is something you have to work at to master it, so to speak. No you can't duckdive like a glass slipper, you have to find ways of getting through the waves without hurting yourself, we did it back in the pre-leash days, and Derek Hynd just uses his double-leash when he's paddling through the big soups. I used to feel the same as everyone else, but now you could say I have become a student of volume, learning to not hate it or be afraid of it, and I don't believe a high volume board has to be an aircraft carrier.
Volume is no easy feat for the shaper, either, packing that extra foam into a board will challenge your shaping skills, I discovered. You have to re-think your approach to stuff like dome, foil, rails, and blending curves. Thinner boards are easier to shape, IMO.
Performance is a personal issue, I'm looking for a board that goes (or feels) faster than my longboard, takes late drops better, turns easier, etc. So I guess performance may be difficult once you add volume, but for my needs, its not unattainable.
Now you mention the rails in this context, i.e. "How in the Hell do you get volume and still have a rail that works?" Well, I think you have to work with the physics of what you have, and what's possible. In this regard, I think SUPs have kinda re-defined what we once thought would and wouldn't work on a wave. I'm not talking about the kooks, I'm talking about the young bucks you see on 7' - 8' SUPs that rip. They're doing stuff with high volume, thick rail boards, that might not be up to Kelly or Mick's performance level, but its way beyond what the average longboarder is doing, and way beyond what I can do on my longboard.
So I don't get psyched out by thick rails, I just realize that thick rails can be made to work well enough if the rest of the design elements come together.
The rail on the WS is thick, but its similar to a rail I've seen on some old Brewer boards, I kinda got my inspiration from that. My deck is pretty flat through the middle, there is some dome, but its not an even curve peaking at the stringer, its more like a curve from the rail to a third of the way to the stringer, then flat the other 2/3rds in. And the rail is working for me, had the board out again today and there was a little more size, maybe 4-5' and glassy, and lo and behold the bigger the face, the better that rail was working. So far so good, maybe just got lucky on a few waves today, but I'm becoming more optimistic about this board every time I take it out.
Plus, I think a lot of rail issues are related to the foil also, if the fat rail thins in the nose and tail, and you're turning from the tail, then you really don't have to sink a fat rail to get a decent turn. Sure, you're not gonna do a spray blasting rail turn like Occy, ha!, but you can still do a good turn, if you get my drift. It may be that rail fins, like the quad has, are a factor in the fat rail working, you don't have to actually sink the rail to get a good bite, so to speak.
I definitely caught my share of waves, even sitting in the middle of a crowded pack. I caught waves where I had to paddle to the left trying to catch a right, so I didn't hit the guys sitting RIGHT inside me. But man, this board is a wave catching machine. More than once I thought bummer, missed that one, and suddenly, boom - I was in, off and riding! I heard a long time local, on a potato chip, complaining when I got out - he couldn't get any mojo, and blamed it on the "twenty-seven longboarders going for every wave", but that wasn't a problem for me.
I'm starting to think of the Wing Squad as my secret weapon, because I really get a lot of waves on it, it handles late drops better than any other board I have, and people see it and don't think of it as a longboard, but like I said, its almost a longboard in disguise. I took a late drop on a close out set wave just because I was tired of waiting, and it was fun! I wouldn't do that on my other boards.
BTW, my "down the line" question was regarding a single fin, no sidebites, just one, old school, single, fin. Maybe try a pivot fin, I used to have one I made that I really liked before I broke the tab off.
Regarding quads - I like them! for me, with the single fin I have to almost plan my turns ahead of time, with the quad I can just sorta react, if that makes sense.
I've built a couple of those raised deck or step deck type boards, they didn't work so well for me, but then I didn't spend a lot of time riding them either. I guess I could go back and explore that someday, barely scratched the surface, but for now I have come to prefer the aesthetic of just going with a bigger, or thicker board, without the fancy stuff at the rails. Like I say, my thick rail on the WS is working for me, and there are other ways of thinning the rail a bit if I need to, dome the deck, add a Stewart style bevel, usually with a little forethought you can get a thinner rail on a thicker board if you really want it. Anyway, I'm trying to keep an open mind, waiting to hear a great ride report from one of those, but not going that direction anymore myself.
With you and yeah
I think the SW is worth a little more testing.
In regards to volume…
There are more ways the one “to skin a cat”
Width is one.
I am working on strategic placement of volume.
i.e. chest and body mass in prone or paddling positon.
Sometimes you get a little lucky with a domed deck.
BTW this is relevant with SB’s as well.
And have been doing a few 2 band rails with hard tucked edge
Of course thinner In the critical spots (rear or under foot)
Ha Dustin weighs in @ 175#, let’s see 175# on a 5-8?
Volume management 101.
We need to have breakfast at the Vagabond
Eh I’ll buy.
thinking about them there "volume rails"
just in case...
Here are the established ideas