Butterfly fin??

Not gonna read this. Just gonna copy and paste in normal format.

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batfische wrote:

Just hit this thread looking for info on a lovely green Velzy butterfly (now, it turns out, known and sold by Fran Velzy as the "V-fin," without the "butterfly" name).

The whole story is a bit of a neato bookend or update to this thread.

It turns out Halcyon did get hold of a Velzy V-fin, as he planned to do long ago when this thread was made -- a lovely, translucent green one, maybe from the era when the fins still tended to break. I know he did because that's who graciously lent me a "Butterly"/"V-fin" to try on a noserider I made, the first LB I've ever owned or shaped, that has some inherent problems, namely & mainly too much nose rocker.

The board itself is a 9' Takayama round tail planshape with a faddish (deep, teardrop concave in the nose, entire bottom basically taken from a T. Reynolds 9-3 I rode that I liked, but with the sudden nose concave transition greatly mellowed, and with the more modern tail and rail idea maintained -- long speed bead, and a little more tail rocker than the original, maybe a touch more vee exiting the tail). I don't remember now, but I think when I put the rocker in I also used rocker numbers from the same Takayama from which I lifted the planshape numbers and template. I also chopped an inch off the nose (thinking this might help me get ten over), so technically it's only 8-11, not 9-0, which I did because one of the local noseriding stars and a friend who has passed, also a skilled & devoted noserider, had Palandranis with a chopped nose like that and clearly loved them.

What's wrong with the board: it has 2-3 inches too much nose rocker, firmly in the "banana board" camp, and not on purpose. I just put in more than it looked like I was putting in, in the bay. Having never owned a longboard, let alone a noserider, I don't have an unconsciously developed eye for longboards, or a consciously informed understanding. Coming from shortboarding, I also put a little more tailrocker than was in the original numbers I used as a guide. I was worried I put too much tail rocker right away, but didn't worry about the noserocker (being clueless). It turned out the tail rocker is great for me, but the nose rocker (and other features) had these results:

- rough/plowy trim
- sudden deceleration when the board gets out in front of the power of the wave, bogging down and planing poorly in the flats and weak parts of the wave
- can't get both feet very far forward on the nose without perling or spinning out or bogging down so much that the board wants to just stop dead. No doubt poor user competence is a factor in all that, as well, but even as I get more used to putting the board on a higher, more proper line, and setting up short noserides better by stepping forward off a mild reentry-ish top turn -- more just a stepping forward and rail change than a reentry -- I could get a cheater 5 with toes occasionally over with some fins, but never ten over
- lack of sensitivity (at least to me) as far as performance changes in the front third of the board. Walking forward on the front third of the board feels about the same until you get to the last foot, where weighting and balance are tricky in terms of getting 5 over, but the board does respond well, directionally, on the nose.

The unglassed board is on my instagram under @batfishsantacruz if anybody wants to actually look at it. There's also a very short clip of me actually riding the V-fin there, too, in the post with the picture of the V-fin on the board (3 boards in the back of the car is the lead photo in the posting).

I tried: 8.5" TK Flex, a Hap Jacobs noserider fin (don't know the name, don't remember the depth, but it's at least 9" and wide), a Rainbow MD3 8", MD 9", and finally a Halcyon "Boomarrang" fin. With all the fins but the last, most of the above issues remained, though the Hap allowed me to step forward with more stability, less sudden deceleration in the first foot of the nose, but the same weird dead spot (a feeling of unresponsiveness, i.e. lack of transitions in response) in the second & third feet of the nose. The TK and MD3 were the most natural for me, turning, and as far as pivot when surfing the middle and tail of the baord, initially, but after I got a little more used to riding the board the Boomarrang felt better to me overall, the best by a good margin; it set a line more sharply, felt faster and smoother on rail, on a good line, allowed me to move forward on the nose as well as or better than the others except the Hap, but it feels more responsive in the "weird dead spot" of the nose than the Hap, and trim speed and planing feel better than the others. I always surf with fin keys on me, and use a hex screw for the fin plate that fits FCS/Futures keys, and with each fin moved it around during sessions based on what I was feeling.

The V-fin crushed all those other fins for me. I had no idea what to expect. Would it make the board want to be way up at a super steep angle when locking in on a rail? Would turning be stiff and like trying to turn a door laying sideways, half submerged in the water?

I hadn't seen this thread, read Skip Frye's comments, or ever heard of or seen a fin like it.

But it didn't do any of the things I wondered if it'd do on just looking at it. It felt very, very natural, and was by far the best of the fins I mention above for this board, greatly improving many of the board's downsides. The back two feet of the front third came to life, and you can feel the board responding differently, in a way that makes sense when you step forward to the nose and move forward an backward on the nose -- although there was also a small change in how easy it was to spend time on the very front 12" of the nose (I'm less likely to get 10 over than with the Hap, or the Boomarrang, for example, though I'll probably get 5 over about as readily and often when I surf the V-fin more). The trim speed is also more even and smoother, and the board doesn't die as quickly when leaving the power of the wave and heading into flatter parts of the wave as with the other fins, and the trim on rail on planing speed just feel better overall, smoother, faster, more even, as easy to maneuver and transition rail to rail as with the TK Flex and MD3.

To make an already long story shorter, I found this thread while looking at how to get hold of a V-fin for less than it would cost to have one made by an expert, and discovered that the V-fin is still being made and is available from Fran Velzy (www.velzy.com). It can be purchased from her either direct or via eBay (at this writing, 2019)

The one that Halcyon has is translucent, molded green plastic, and I think might be from the era when these had a tendency to break, so I'm pretty pleased with myself for not damaging it.

And I ordered one & plan to ride it along with the Boomarrang on my goofy board whose flaws are now strengths for me as a beginner (mainly that it's easier and more natural to turn for me, a shortboarder who is now a beginning longboarder, stoked on having another option that opens up spots & makes peaks fun that I would normally never ride).

That was the main reason for this follow-up: to let it be known that this fin is great for boards like mine, and that it's still available to buy new.

Big thanks to Halcyon for improving surfing life with his ever-in-evidence generosity and the Boomarrang and V-fin.

Thanks, too, to Fran Velzy, who called me back after I found the right phone number on a web page I can't seem to relocate now. The page had the number, but seemed maybe pretty old, possibly outdated. What a great thing to be able to get in touch with her and find out the fin is still being made, and maybe better (less apt to destruct) than the one I already like.

In the Velzy display at SHACC we have the original molds he made for the Butterly fin.

Just an idea that the Man came up with.  Not necessarily a good one or functional.  More a novelty than anything else.  People are still fascinated by it and just won’t let go.  Many say it is the greatest thing since???  There will always be those devotees of an obvious Bilbo who swear that there is nothing better.   Not unlike the Thrailkill musings(ie Duo-fin or Twinger whatchmacallit).. 

Inquisitive minds and tinkerers are always toying with the variables, thats part of what keeps it fresh and fun. There are no right or wrong answers, just different routes to find the stoke. The opinions that seem the least valid to me are the ones backed up by zero personal hands on experience. I'm always curious to read reviews, positive or negative, by the guys who have actually ridden a design. 

It’s all part of the progression.  Some tinkering works better than others.  A lot of these things would most likely still be in wide spread use if they did a bit more than just work.  I could put a piece of unfoiled plywood in a Bahne box and it would work.  It just wouldn’t work well enough to suit me (or most people).  I think that some of the stuff people come up with is nothing more than attempt to correct some lack of ability or glitch in the designers own surfing.  Sometimes we tend to think every Surfer has the same problem we do.  It’s great that someone comes up with a fin setup that helps him or her get speed out of a cutback or turn.  I’ve never had a lack of speed coming forward out of a cutback.   So I don’t see the advantage in a two box fin/ two fin set up.  My favorite board is a 9’4 Square Tail with an 8” Rainbow Rake fin.  Coincidently and not by intent;  very Nat Young Sam.

That’s a clip of someone riding a “Butterfly” fin??   Doesn’t even work as good as I thought it would.  That fin by the way was I believe designed for a particular model of board that Dale shaped.  But not intended to be used exclusively On the “Malibu Express”.

Ha...(1) That's me, & not illustrative of what that green/red incarnation would surf like under the feet of someone more skilled, as (2) I didn't surf for 20 years, (2) am a beginner again, had only been on a board over 8' maybe 14 times in my life, only a few additional times on an 8 footer a bud made, and (3) no skilled longboarder would call the board a good one (too much rocker, front half of the board, by at least 2", maybe almost 3" - it's a plough).

That said, I got the current edition of the V-fin. It's not remotely the same as the red & green ones - it's much, much larger and seems more upright.

The vintage red fin, which seems to be the same as the green fin Rich let me ride, helped an inherently sluggish board feel more lively. The current edition made the board sluggish again. Probably like thw majority of proven fins I've tried it would work much better on a board with better rocker. The smaller vintage one feels better (to me, maybe not a more skilled rider) on the crappy board, and maybe would feel worse than the "update" on a better board.

If anybody has the red or green vintage one w the center hole, I'm down to trade just about any other fin i have for it.

What I’m seeing there is not a criticism of surfing ability.  What I’m basically saying is I don’t see it being as beneficial to average surfing.  We all know that really good surfers can paddle out on an ironing board and make it look good.  That’s a given.

Oh I’m into experimentation and my mind is open.  Stuff that was put forward in the sixties and discarded is usually stuff that didn’t improve anybody’s surfing.  When it is brought back it is because it has become “Retro”.  Or—.  Because a newer younger generation wasn’t surfing when it came around the first time.  They weren’t there to remember whether or not something worked.

In 1960, when I was shaping for Velzy, I discussed the Butterfly Fin and it's merit, with Del Cannon.        Del had ridden the 7' 11'' balsa board that had the original fin setup on it.        He described it as ''.....too squirrely.....''       That comment has to be understood in the context of the ''normal'' resistance felt from a large ''D'' fin, of the period.       Squirrely probably meant sensitive, compared to the normal, expected pushback response.        When I did my first ''Tri-Fin'' setup, in 1964, I felt that it was interesting, but ''too loose'' in the context of what was ''normal'' in surfboards of the day.       The  now shorter lighter boards of today, may well be benefited by the use of a Butterfly type fin.     Someone just needs to work on it.