Butterfly fin??

44 posts |
Last post
Anonymous's picture
Anonymous (not verified)

Went out yesterday, Kids boogied and skimmed on the beach -- 3-4' perfect conditions wave after wave all the way to the beach just a buddy and myself. Magic board, magic day! -- So we get home sit down with a hot drink, Paul says "Have a look at this, I got it in the late 70's in southern California." He produces a reddish clear casted Butterfly fin. A really cool looking thing it is -- double 6.5" wide base fins set at about 75% or so that go into a standard fin box with a central screw hole. Looks like it would be extremely loose when turning and restrict rail to rail manuvering. It appears to be probably more of a curiousity that anything else, who knows. Does anyone know anything about this unusual part of fin evolution? I think I'll put it on my speed-platter on a slow day and just see how it changes the way the board acts. Good Surfin' Rich

like
0
Anonymous's picture
Dale Solomonson (not verified)

>>> Went out yesterday, Kids boogied and skimmed on the beach -- 3-4' perfect > conditions wave after wave all the way to the beach just a buddy and > myself. Magic board, magic day! -- So we get home sit down with a hot > drink, Paul says "Have a look at this, I got it in the late 70's in > southern California." He produces a reddish clear casted Butterfly > fin. A really cool looking thing it is -- double 6.5" wide base fins > set at about 75% or so that go into a standard fin box with a central > screw hole. Looks like it would be extremely loose when turning and > restrict rail to rail manuvering. It appears to be probably more of a > curiousity that anything else, who knows. Does anyone know anything about > this unusual part of fin evolution? I think I'll put it on my > speed-platter on a slow day and just see how it changes the way the board > acts.>>> Good Surfin' Rich Dale Velzy has made this type of fin for over 40 years...

like
0
Anonymous's picture
Halcyon (not verified)

>>> Dale Velzy has made this type of fin for over 40 years... Thanx for the insite Dale S. Without the straight from Velzy I still wonder what it's about. I see by some research that it's been around since '54. Good Surfin' Rich

like
0
Anonymous's picture
Dale Solomonson (not verified)

>>> Thanx for the insite Dale S.>>> Without the straight from Velzy I still wonder what it's about. I see by > some research that it's been around since '54.>>> Good Surfin' Rich Hey, Rich, This should really help... sooo fascinating!! (http://noseriding.com/pages/velzy-home.htm) Dale

like
0
Anonymous's picture
Halcyon (not verified)

>>> Hey, Rich,>>> This should really help... sooo fascinating!! > (http://noseriding.com/pages/velzy-home.htm)>>> Dale I'm gonna send off for one and try it out. Thanx for the tip Dale. Best, Rich

like
0
Anonymous's picture
smokin resin (not verified)

>>> I'm gonna send off for one and try it out.>>> Thanx for the tip Dale.>>> Best, Rich I would like to try one as well but I read the website and it seems like they were being used mostly on longboards. Does anyone know how this fin would perform on a single fin shortboard. I have a 6' 3" egg and 6"5" diamond tail similar to the board Doc Lausch is making . Thanks for any input.

like
0
Anonymous's picture
Nels Norene (not verified)

>>> I would like to try one as well but I read the website and it seems like > they were being used mostly on longboards. Does anyone know how this fin > would perform on a single fin shortboard. I have a 6' 3" egg and > 6"5" diamond tail similar to the board Doc Lausch is making . > Thanks for any input. I rode a 7'2" single fin with a butterfly fin, rented from Crawford's shop in Indiatlantic (sp?) Florida sometime in the mid-80's. Surf in that area at the time was good, solid 4-5 foot, something of a bear of a beachbreak for this Californian point wave guy. Only had two days to use it, and I thought it worked fine. Probably less drag than from a thruster, held great in critical takeoffs (make that lazy Californian point wave guy), very solid. It probably would be moot on a thruster, but since the single fin had single fin rail to rail handling, it didn't seem to hamper performance. This was the real "v" style butterfly fin, with no long trunk before the "y". Nels

like
0
Anonymous's picture
Dale Solomonson (not verified)

>>> I would like to try one as well but I read the website and it seems like > they were being used mostly on longboards. Does anyone know how this fin > would perform on a single fin shortboard. I have a 6' 3" egg and > 6"5" diamond tail similar to the board Doc Lausch is making . > Thanks for any input. smokin resin, The Velzy "V" fin website includes an endorsement from Skip Frye, where he briefly mentions using it on one of his favorite "eggs"... probably not a shortboard, though. Still, for less than $70.00, changing a surfboard`s fin(s) is the least thing a surfer could ever do, in order to produce the greatest possible effect.

like
0
Anonymous's picture
Barry - Surfboa... (not verified)

>>> smokin resin,>>> The Velzy "V" fin website includes an endorsement from Skip > Frye, where he briefly mentions using it on one of his favorite > "eggs"... probably not a shortboard, though.>>> Still, for less than $70.00, changing a surfboard`s fin(s) is the least > thing a surfer could ever do, in order to produce the greatest possible > effect. Fins Unlimited made several "V" fins for Dale a few years back. We tried several sizes, even going down to about 7" . . . and I tried one of the shallower ones with sith sidebites. F/U did a really great job with what they had to work with but, unfortunately, the fin was a bit fragile and often broke apart at the base. Over all, the "V" fin worked pretty well - it was really neat to be able load up and drive a longboard out of turn. And, the fin was rock solid for nose riding. The only drawback seemed to be with bigger waves (8' - 10') and higher speeds. The drag that worked well on smaller waves for nose riding, tended to lift the tail at higher speeds - pretty spooky. The fins that Surf Tech is making for Dale are considerably stronger, and much lighter. I'm not sure if Dale has any in stock right now but anyone who is interested might check with Sean at Surfride in O'side. Or give me a holler and I will check to see what is available!

like
0
Anonymous's picture
j.d. (not verified)

>>> Fins Unlimited made several "V" fins for Dale a few years back. > We tried several sizes, even going down to about 7" . . . and I tried > one of the shallower ones with sith sidebites. F/U did a really great job > with what they had to work with but, unfortunately, the fin was a bit > fragile and often broke apart at the base. Over all, the "V" fin > worked pretty well - it was really neat to be able load up and drive a > longboard out of turn. And, the fin was rock solid for nose riding. The > only drawback seemed to be with bigger waves (8' - 10') and higher speeds. > The drag that worked well on smaller waves for nose riding, tended to lift > the tail at higher speeds - pretty spooky.>>> The fins that Surf Tech is making for Dale are considerably stronger, and > much lighter. I'm not sure if Dale has any in stock right now but anyone > who is interested might check with Sean at Surfride in O'side. Or give me > a holler and I will check to see what is available! I saw one of these on a "Malibu Express" model, but now that think of it, there was a pic. (circa 50's maybe) in Surfer's Journal of said fin on a wooden board as well. Definitely been around awhile.

like
0
batfische's picture
Joined: 05/07/2013
Just hit this thread looking for info on a lovely green Velzy butterfly (now, it turns out, known and sold by Fran Velzy as the "V-fin," without the "butterfly" name). The whole story is a bit of a neato bookend or update to this thread. It turns out Halcyon did get hold of a Velzy V-fin, as he planned to do long ago when this thread was made -- a lovely, translucent green one, maybe from the era when the fins still tended to break. I know he did because that's who graciously lent me a "Butterly"/"V-fin" to try on a noserider I made, the first LB I've ever owned or shaped, that has some inherent problems, namely & mainly too much nose rocker. The board itself is a 9' Takayama round tail planshape with a faddish (deep, teardrop concave in the nose, entire bottom basically taken from a T. Reynolds 9-3 I rode that I liked, but with the sudden nose concave transition greatly mellowed, and with the more modern tail and rail idea maintained -- long speed bead, and a little more tail rocker than the original, maybe a touch more vee exiting the tail). I don't remember now, but I think when I put the rocker in I also used rocker numbers from the same Takayama from which I lifted the planshape numbers and template. I also chopped an inch off the nose (thinking this might help me get ten over), so technically it's only 8-11, not 9-0, which I did because one of the local noseriding stars and a friend who has passed, also a skilled & devoted noserider, had Palandranis with a chopped nose like that and clearly loved them. What's wrong with the board: it has 2-3 inches too much nose rocker, firmly in the "banana board" camp, and not on purpose. I just put in more than it looked like I was putting in, in the bay. Having never owned a longboard, let alone a noserider, I don't have an unconsciously developed eye for longboards, or a consciously informed understanding. Coming from shortboarding, I also put a little more tailrocker than was in the original numbers I used as a guide. I was worried I put too much tail rocker right away, but didn't worry about the noserocker (being clueless). It turned out the tail rocker is great for me, but the nose rocker (and other features) had these results: - rough/plowy trim - sudden deceleration when the board gets out in front of the power of the wave, bogging down and planing poorly in the flats and weak parts of the wave - can't get both feet very far forward on the nose without perling or spinning out or bogging down so much that the board wants to just stop dead. No doubt poor user competence is a factor in all that, as well, but even as I get more used to putting the board on a higher, more proper line, and setting up short noserides better by stepping forward off a mild reentry-ish top turn -- more just a stepping forward and rail change than a reentry -- I could get a cheater 5 with toes occasionally over with some fins, but never ten over - lack of sensitivity (at least to me) as far as performance changes in the front third of the board. Walking forward on the front third of the board feels about the same until you get to the last foot, where weighting and balance are tricky in terms of getting 5 over, but the board does respond well, directionally, on the nose. The unglassed board is on my instagram under @batfishsantacruz if anybody wants to actually look at it. There's also a very short clip of me actually riding the V-fin there, too, in the post with the picture of the V-fin on the board (3 boards in the back of the car is the lead photo in the posting). I tried: 8.5" TK Flex, a Hap Jacobs noserider fin (don't know the name, don't remember the depth, but it's at least 9" and wide), a Rainbow MD3 8", MD 9", and finally a Halcyon "Boomarrang" fin. With all the fins but the last, most of the above issues remained, though the Hap allowed me to step forward with more stability, less sudden deceleration in the first foot of the nose, but the same weird dead spot (a feeling of unresponsiveness, i.e. lack of transitions in response) in the second & third feet of the nose. The TK and MD3 were the most natural for me, turning, and as far as pivot when surfing the middle and tail of the baord, initially, but after I got a little more used to riding the board the Boomarrang felt better to me overall, the best by a good margin; it set a line more sharply, felt faster and smoother on rail, on a good line, allowed me to move forward on the nose as well as or better than the others except the Hap, but it feels more responsive in the "weird dead spot" of the nose than the Hap, and trim speed and planing feel better than the others. I always surf with fin keys on me, and use a hex screw for the fin plate that fits FCS/Futures keys, and with each fin moved it around during sessions based on what I was feeling. The V-fin crushed all those other fins for me. I had no idea what to expect. Would it make the board want to be way up at a super steep angle when locking in on a rail? Would turning be stiff and like trying to turn a door laying sideways, half submerged in the water? I hadn't seen this thread, read Skip Frye's comments, or ever heard of or seen a fin like it. But it didn't do any of the things I wondered if it'd do on just looking at it. It felt very, very natural, and was by far the best of the fins I mention above for this board, greatly improving many of the board's downsides. The back two feet of the front third came to life, and you can feel the board responding differently, in a way that makes sense when you step forward to the nose and move forward an backward on the nose -- although there was also a small change in how easy it was to spend time on the very front 12" of the nose (I'm less likely to get 10 over than with the Hap, or the Boomarrang, for example, though I'll probably get 5 over about as readily and often when I surf the V-fin more). The trim speed is also more even and smoother, and the board doesn't die as quickly when leaving the power of the wave and heading into flatter parts of the wave as with the other fins, and the trim on rail on planing speed just feel better overall, smoother, faster, more even, as easy to maneuver and transition rail to rail as with the TK Flex and MD3. To make an already long story shorter, I found this thread while looking at how to get hold of a V-fin for less than it would cost to have one made by an expert, and discovered that the V-fin is still being made and is available from Fran Velzy (www.velzy.com). It can be purchased from her either direct or via eBay (at this writing, 2019) The one that Halcyon has is translucent, molded green plastic, and I think might be from the era when these had a tendency to break, so I'm pretty pleased with myself for not damaging it. And I ordered one & plan to ride it along with the Boomarrang on my goofy board whose flaws are now strengths for me as a beginner (mainly that it's easier and more natural to turn for me, a shortboarder who is now a beginning longboarder, stoked on having another option that opens up spots & makes peaks fun that I would normally never ride). That was the main reason for this follow-up: to let it be known that this fin is great for boards like mine, and that it's still available to buy new. Big thanks to Halcyon for improving surfing life with his ever-in-evidence generosity and the Boomarrang and V-fin. Thanks, too, to Fran Velzy, who called me back after I found the right phone number on a web page I can't seem to relocate now. The page had the number, but seemed maybe pretty old, possibly outdated. What a great thing to be able to get in touch with her and find out the fin is still being made, and maybe better (less apt to destruct) than the one I already like.
like
0
Huck's picture
Joined: 12/07/2009

Not gonna read this. Just gonna copy and paste in normal format.

--------'

batfische wrote:
Just hit this thread looking for info on a lovely green Velzy butterfly (now, it turns out, known and sold by Fran Velzy as the "V-fin," without the "butterfly" name).

The whole story is a bit of a neato bookend or update to this thread.

It turns out Halcyon did get hold of a Velzy V-fin, as he planned to do long ago when this thread was made -- a lovely, translucent green one, maybe from the era when the fins still tended to break. I know he did because that's who graciously lent me a "Butterly"/"V-fin" to try on a noserider I made, the first LB I've ever owned or shaped, that has some inherent problems, namely & mainly too much nose rocker.

The board itself is a 9' Takayama round tail planshape with a faddish (deep, teardrop concave in the nose, entire bottom basically taken from a T. Reynolds 9-3 I rode that I liked, but with the sudden nose concave transition greatly mellowed, and with the more modern tail and rail idea maintained -- long speed bead, and a little more tail rocker than the original, maybe a touch more vee exiting the tail). I don't remember now, but I think when I put the rocker in I also used rocker numbers from the same Takayama from which I lifted the planshape numbers and template. I also chopped an inch off the nose (thinking this might help me get ten over), so technically it's only 8-11, not 9-0, which I did because one of the local noseriding stars and a friend who has passed, also a skilled & devoted noserider, had Palandranis with a chopped nose like that and clearly loved them.

What's wrong with the board: it has 2-3 inches too much nose rocker, firmly in the "banana board" camp, and not on purpose. I just put in more than it looked like I was putting in, in the bay. Having never owned a longboard, let alone a noserider, I don't have an unconsciously developed eye for longboards, or a consciously informed understanding. Coming from shortboarding, I also put a little more tailrocker than was in the original numbers I used as a guide. I was worried I put too much tail rocker right away, but didn't worry about the noserocker (being clueless). It turned out the tail rocker is great for me, but the nose rocker (and other features) had these results:

- rough/plowy trim
- sudden deceleration when the board gets out in front of the power of the wave, bogging down and planing poorly in the flats and weak parts of the wave
- can't get both feet very far forward on the nose without perling or spinning out or bogging down so much that the board wants to just stop dead. No doubt poor user competence is a factor in all that, as well, but even as I get more used to putting the board on a higher, more proper line, and setting up short noserides better by stepping forward off a mild reentry-ish top turn -- more just a stepping forward and rail change than a reentry -- I could get a cheater 5 with toes occasionally over with some fins, but never ten over
- lack of sensitivity (at least to me) as far as performance changes in the front third of the board. Walking forward on the front third of the board feels about the same until you get to the last foot, where weighting and balance are tricky in terms of getting 5 over, but the board does respond well, directionally, on the nose.

The unglassed board is on my instagram under @batfishsantacruz if anybody wants to actually look at it. There's also a very short clip of me actually riding the V-fin there, too, in the post with the picture of the V-fin on the board (3 boards in the back of the car is the lead photo in the posting).

I tried: 8.5" TK Flex, a Hap Jacobs noserider fin (don't know the name, don't remember the depth, but it's at least 9" and wide), a Rainbow MD3 8", MD 9", and finally a Halcyon "Boomarrang" fin. With all the fins but the last, most of the above issues remained, though the Hap allowed me to step forward with more stability, less sudden deceleration in the first foot of the nose, but the same weird dead spot (a feeling of unresponsiveness, i.e. lack of transitions in response) in the second & third feet of the nose. The TK and MD3 were the most natural for me, turning, and as far as pivot when surfing the middle and tail of the baord, initially, but after I got a little more used to riding the board the Boomarrang felt better to me overall, the best by a good margin; it set a line more sharply, felt faster and smoother on rail, on a good line, allowed me to move forward on the nose as well as or better than the others except the Hap, but it feels more responsive in the "weird dead spot" of the nose than the Hap, and trim speed and planing feel better than the others. I always surf with fin keys on me, and use a hex screw for the fin plate that fits FCS/Futures keys, and with each fin moved it around during sessions based on what I was feeling.

The V-fin crushed all those other fins for me. I had no idea what to expect. Would it make the board want to be way up at a super steep angle when locking in on a rail? Would turning be stiff and like trying to turn a door laying sideways, half submerged in the water?

I hadn't seen this thread, read Skip Frye's comments, or ever heard of or seen a fin like it.

But it didn't do any of the things I wondered if it'd do on just looking at it. It felt very, very natural, and was by far the best of the fins I mention above for this board, greatly improving many of the board's downsides. The back two feet of the front third came to life, and you can feel the board responding differently, in a way that makes sense when you step forward to the nose and move forward an backward on the nose -- although there was also a small change in how easy it was to spend time on the very front 12" of the nose (I'm less likely to get 10 over than with the Hap, or the Boomarrang, for example, though I'll probably get 5 over about as readily and often when I surf the V-fin more). The trim speed is also more even and smoother, and the board doesn't die as quickly when leaving the power of the wave and heading into flatter parts of the wave as with the other fins, and the trim on rail on planing speed just feel better overall, smoother, faster, more even, as easy to maneuver and transition rail to rail as with the TK Flex and MD3.

To make an already long story shorter, I found this thread while looking at how to get hold of a V-fin for less than it would cost to have one made by an expert, and discovered that the V-fin is still being made and is available from Fran Velzy (www.velzy.com). It can be purchased from her either direct or via eBay (at this writing, 2019)

The one that Halcyon has is translucent, molded green plastic, and I think might be from the era when these had a tendency to break, so I'm pretty pleased with myself for not damaging it.

And I ordered one & plan to ride it along with the Boomarrang on my goofy board whose flaws are now strengths for me as a beginner (mainly that it's easier and more natural to turn for me, a shortboarder who is now a beginning longboarder, stoked on having another option that opens up spots & makes peaks fun that I would normally never ride).

That was the main reason for this follow-up: to let it be known that this fin is great for boards like mine, and that it's still available to buy new.

Big thanks to Halcyon for improving surfing life with his ever-in-evidence generosity and the Boomarrang and V-fin.

Thanks, too, to Fran Velzy, who called me back after I found the right phone number on a web page I can't seem to relocate now. The page had the number, but seemed maybe pretty old, possibly outdated. What a great thing to be able to get in touch with her and find out the fin is still being made, and maybe better (less apt to destruct) than the one I already like.

like
0
Surffoils's picture
Joined: 09/09/2006

You can get a 1970s copy called a Butterfly Fin, much the same shape and concept of a split fin for left and right

like
0
ace's picture
ace
Joined: 12/30/2005

I was given one of those to try. I was less than impressed. Anyone in my area want to borrow it feel free to come by and give it a go. 

like
0
batfische's picture
Joined: 05/07/2013
Thanks for reposting, Huck -- I'll try to figure out how to format like that in the future (this reply being an attempt/test). Surffoils -- I saw that red edition, I think, and maybe the same run was the source for the fin originally discussed in the OP? The one Rich had is green -- I wonder if that identifies it as being from a different run or different maker, or the same maker. If the fin I just ordered from Fran Velzy (floral pattern inlay and Velzy logos on it in the eBay listing) is different, I might be disappointed. I want the same fin. I sent the pic to myself so I could post it here (attached). I'll also try to upload the short clip I mentioned, not sure if I can do that. Yeah: just tried to upload the clip...can't put it in this post but will see if making another post will make that possible. In the clip, you can see the water plowing off the front/middle of the board, in front of the sweet spot, and probably it does that with any fin -- it just doesn't feel as crappy with the butterfly fin. Probably if I can make the clip viewable you can see from my reactions that it's not feeling like that to me, riding. I rode the same board with a 9.5" TK Flex yesterday, and it did some things better, but it felt sluggish again -- it doesn't feel sluggish with the butterfly/V-fin. Ace, dunno if you're local (I'm in SC), or if that red fin is from the same run/source as the green one I rode, but I would've wanted to buy or trade for it if so. Still would be interested if it turns out the fin I ordered is different from the green one.
like
0
batfische's picture
Joined: 05/07/2013
Yeh: I can't upload the clip, but here's a link to the post that has it in it: https://www.instagram.com/p/BwD_KGBgYo9/
like
0
unclegrumpy's picture
Joined: 09/16/2006

In the Velzy display at SHACC we have the original molds he made for the Butterly fin.

like
0

No; It's not an ironing board.

McDing's picture
Joined: 05/22/2004

Just an idea that the Man came up with.  Not necessarily a good one or functional.  More a novelty than anything else.  People are still fascinated by it and just won’t let go.  Many say it is the greatest thing since???  There will always be those devotees of an obvious Bilbo who swear that there is nothing better.   Not unlike the Thrailkill musings(ie Duo-fin or Twinger whatchmacallit).. 

like
0

That which can be assorted without evidence was read in an illegal magazine.

Huck's picture
Joined: 12/07/2009

Inquisitive minds and tinkerers are always toying with the variables, thats part of what keeps it fresh and fun. There are no right or wrong answers, just different routes to find the stoke. The opinions that seem the least valid to me are the ones backed up by zero personal hands on experience. I'm always curious to read reviews, positive or negative, by the guys who have actually ridden a design. 

like
2
Surffoils's picture
Joined: 09/09/2006

+1 Huck, I’m in that party of highly motivated experimentalists who do it to keep it fresh and fun. Irrespective of who did what or when or how well they did it.

I can always do better than them, or much worse, but I’ll never know unless I give it a shot.

 Here’s my take on the V-Fin, Butterfly Fin, sitting in the Universal Fin Box I helped design and along side the start of my Incredibly Efficient Flipper Design.

 The Butterfly fin had  approx 60 degree angle between fins and came in a range of translucent colours as well as white.

like
1
McDing's picture
Joined: 05/22/2004

It’s all part of the progression.  Some tinkering works better than others.  A lot of these things would most likely still be in wide spread use if they did a bit more than just work.  I could put a piece of unfoiled plywood in a Bahne box and it would work.  It just wouldn’t work well enough to suit me (or most people).  I think that some of the stuff people come up with is nothing more than attempt to correct some lack of ability or glitch in the designers own surfing.  Sometimes we tend to think every Surfer has the same problem we do.  It’s great that someone comes up with a fin setup that helps him or her get speed out of a cutback or turn.  I’ve never had a lack of speed coming forward out of a cutback.   So I don’t see the advantage in a two box fin/ two fin set up.  My favorite board is a 9’4 Square Tail with an 8” Rainbow Rake fin.  Coincidently and not by intent;  very Nat Young Sam.

like
1

That which can be assorted without evidence was read in an illegal magazine.

batfische's picture
Joined: 05/07/2013
God help any one who has the same problem I do, because that means they made a really sh***y longboard lol. If you look at the clip of me riding it (I'm a beginning LB rider, haven't ridden any board over 8' more than 12 times, total, in my life) I think you can tell from how the water is rolling over the deck well forward of the sweet spot, that the board has way too much nose rocker, and too much rocker overall. Ironically, that makes the board easier to ride for an adv-int shortboarder just learning to ride LBs and noseriders. In short, the board is a noserider that doesn't really noseride. In that way it has a lot in common with the 1st `10 or 15 boards I made. Nearly all of them worked, just not for the waves and situations intended. Anyway, I have the good luck of being neighborly with Halcyon, so I had the good fortune to try a lot of different fins in the 9 footer (technically 8-11 after nose chop), already described. I didn't find much on the web about the butterfly fin after riding it. I think this thread probably has more info about it than any other source on the web, now. The 9-footer has goofy but not unique problems. I thought it was pretty neato that of all the fins I tried, two very unusual ones were the most pleasurable to ride. Could be of use to someone in the future, maybe not. But I bet yes. In, say, another 12 or 14 years or so. And then that person can catch undeserved stink-post for it, too. lol
like
1
Monkstar1's picture
Joined: 06/21/2004
like
0

Send me your dinged, damaged, and yellowed.

BackyardBullard.com

McDing's picture
Joined: 05/22/2004

That’s a clip of someone riding a “Butterfly” fin??   Doesn’t even work as good as I thought it would.  That fin by the way was I believe designed for a particular model of board that Dale shaped.  But not intended to be used exclusively On the “Malibu Express”.

like
0

That which can be assorted without evidence was read in an illegal magazine.

batfische's picture
Joined: 05/07/2013

Ha...(1) That's me, & not illustrative of what that green/red incarnation would surf like under the feet of someone more skilled, as (2) I didn't surf for 20 years, (2) am a beginner again, had only been on a board over 8' maybe 14 times in my life, only a few additional times on an 8 footer a bud made, and (3) no skilled longboarder would call the board a good one (too much rocker, front half of the board, by at least 2", maybe almost 3" - it's a plough).

That said, I got the current edition of the V-fin. It's not remotely the same as the red & green ones - it's much, much larger and seems more upright.

The vintage red fin, which seems to be the same as the green fin Rich let me ride, helped an inherently sluggish board feel more lively. The current edition made the board sluggish again. Probably like thw majority of proven fins I've tried it would work much better on a board with better rocker. The smaller vintage one feels better (to me, maybe not a more skilled rider) on the crappy board, and maybe would feel worse than the "update" on a better board.

If anybody has the red or green vintage one w the center hole, I'm down to trade just about any other fin i have for it.

like
0
McDing's picture
Joined: 05/22/2004

I think the same could be said of almost any fin.  I can change from a 10” Rake to a 8 1/2” Flex fin and my board(any board) will feel more lively.

like
0

That which can be assorted without evidence was read in an illegal magazine.

McDing's picture
Joined: 05/22/2004

What I’m seeing there is not a criticism of surfing ability.  What I’m basically saying is I don’t see it being as beneficial to average surfing.  We all know that really good surfers can paddle out on an ironing board and make it look good.  That’s a given.

like
0

That which can be assorted without evidence was read in an illegal magazine.

batfische's picture
Joined: 05/07/2013
So, by that logic, my not being "really good" (not being sarcastic, I think I surf "OK," nothing beyond or less than that) should be more useful than someone more skilled. Taking into account what I already related, and what you can see -- and you can see how the water flowing over the deck confirms what I say about rocker, I think -- what would be different, what would you see or not see, if the fin was working better just as a fin?
like
0
McDing's picture
Joined: 05/22/2004

Actually;  Yes!  If it makes little or no noticeable difference in an average surfers surfing or for that matter a Pro’s; then what is there to rave about?  I don’t see turns or cutbacks that are harder or snappier that can be credited to the fin.  Don’t see any floaters or prolonged noserides.  So what is that fin supposed to do?

like
0

That which can be assorted without evidence was read in an illegal magazine.

batfische's picture
Joined: 05/07/2013
Yeh, that was 10 seconds of the first wave (I think even smaller than it looks) that I took with an unfamiliar fin, the 10 seconds that the Surfline cam caught. The wave was longer, maybe another 3 times as long as that first 10 seconds, and it felt like I got off as good a cutback as I've gotten on the board in the 6 or 8 times I've ridden it now (a 9.5" Rainbow TK Flex might turn a little better on the heel side for me, but it bogs faster when transitioning from the pocket to flat parts of the wave), but that turn wasn't caught by the cam so who knows. Usually my rides are not remotely as shredful as I thought they were when they were happening lol. The board wants to bog so fast when leaving the power of the wave, though -- and as an LB'ing noob I'm probably almost always too far forward when initiating cutbacks or reentries -- that the little speed check you see in the clip is about as "radical" a cutback as the board is going to make in waves that small and unjuicy. With one of the MDT or TK Flex fins that ride somewhat OK in the board, I don't think it makes even that much of a cutback on that wave -- probably not nearly, and all that would have happened there is a stall without any kind of turn to speak of. I think it's specifically the weaknesses of the board that make the green fin Rich kindly lent me a good match for the board. It's a common problem, a wonky board requiring a somewhat unique solution that might not be as good a choice for a board that behaves better, or more like one would like it to behave ("better" being a subjective, rather than objective judgment, much as sometimes certain types of people seem to assert otherwise). I think fins you might think were better, without even seeing them ridden by the rider in question, aren't better in this board. Probably most riders more skilled than me would have the same finding on this board. I suspect you would think some of the fins I already named are better. For me, in this board, they really aren't.
like
0
batfische's picture
Joined: 05/07/2013
Still looking for one of those earlier, smaller, less upright butterfly fins, like the red one in the photo earlier in the thread! If anybody has one I want to buy or trade for it -- I have plenty of fin options if trade is preferred, including some custom fins.
like
0
halcyon's picture
Joined: 03/18/2004

So ... surfing at Indicators or P.P. 1st peak on a head high day, if you can get a wave in da crazy crowds, would speak to fin performance in spades.

Seems it has potential from my point of veiw but then the variety of boards out there make the end assessment make that assessment scetchy.

The way it performs on a low rockered old school board and a modern performance longboard will be quite different. I wouldn't sell the thing short.

As with any fin design on the right stick it might light things up. The old model is shallow in depth and would be good on small days in heavy kelp

conditions. The new model is simply out of proportion to what the fin was intended IMHO, marketing is the rage and something unusual and showy

often sells.

Finnally sorting out how things perform subjectively as though you really know whats going on without have things under foor is just plain stupid.

We have our failures and successes, but with small minds or without experimentation we get nowhere.

Stay Stoked, Rich

like
1
McDing's picture
Joined: 05/22/2004

Oh I’m into experimentation and my mind is open.  Stuff that was put forward in the sixties and discarded is usually stuff that didn’t improve anybody’s surfing.  When it is brought back it is because it has become “Retro”.  Or—.  Because a newer younger generation wasn’t surfing when it came around the first time.  They weren’t there to remember whether or not something worked.

like
0

That which can be assorted without evidence was read in an illegal magazine.

halcyon's picture
Joined: 03/18/2004

The boards of the 60s had very limited performance.

Because surfboards have evolved so much some things that were discarded as ineffective

were never given a full chance for the very reason that things were not tested against 

a broad performance spectrum on the wide variety of boards that we have today.

There are many things that  have been hyped over the years that are the trend of

the week. Marketing has swayed many surfers who know little and care less about

board performance or fluid dynamics. It's the way things are. It won't change.

I watch some of the old films and see some grand things happening. It's inspiring.

Mahalo, Rich

like
2
Surffoils's picture
Joined: 09/09/2006
like
1
batfische's picture
Joined: 05/07/2013
Thanks for this, Surffoils -- just sent ya PM. Very much appreciated.
like
0
Surffoils's picture
Joined: 09/09/2006

The guy who runs that site is Seb. Let him know I sent you.

like
0
batfische's picture
Joined: 05/07/2013

Too late! I already bought it! They were great to deal with (thus far) - speedy and helpful. :thumbsup:

like
0
thrailkill's picture
Joined: 05/07/2004

In 1960, when I was shaping for Velzy, I discussed the Butterfly Fin and it's merit, with Del Cannon.        Del had ridden the 7' 11'' balsa board that had the original fin setup on it.        He described it as ''.....too squirrely.....''       That comment has to be understood in the context of the ''normal'' resistance felt from a large ''D'' fin, of the period.       Squirrely probably meant sensitive, compared to the normal, expected pushback response.        When I did my first ''Tri-Fin'' setup, in 1964, I felt that it was interesting, but ''too loose'' in the context of what was ''normal'' in surfboards of the day.       The  now shorter lighter boards of today, may well be benefited by the use of a Butterfly type fin.     Someone just needs to work on it.

like
1
Bill Thrailkill SHAPER SINCE 1958
batfische's picture
Joined: 05/07/2013

Something I've never seen discussed (though surely it has been) is that most intermediate and beginning LB-ers are riding equipment that is unduly difficult for them to ride, either because too modern and high-performance (too sensitive for beginners or intermediates) or too unresponsive and difficult to turn. Before making the LB in the clip (and in the post I linked), I rode several by different currently in vogue shapers, one of which was a high-performance 10' glider made for a friend who is 20 lbs heavier than me (I'm about 215 lbs). I never rode a board over 7 ft that was so hard to catch waves on, or that was so squirrely (meaning sensitive and responsive to every weight shift and change in foot position -- not even 6-5 "potato"-type eggs with long, deep doubles that are looser than most shortboards). Every time I moved my feet on that board, the board responded more than I expected it to, making it hard for me to control.

That experience of that board doesn't surprise me as the shaper is a master shaper and master surfer over 60 with whom I occationally surf. His style is a pleasure to watch because he's always on the edge of being out of control, and he loves for the board to surprise him continually - very expressive. I think the board is what *he* wants, which inherently means it's not really a good board for beginners or intermediates. Really maybe only 1 in 100 surfers (or maybe even 1 in 1000) surfers are close to his level, yet everybody says that board is phenomenal. I hated it.

Other LBs I rode in the past were the opposite, stiff and hard to turn, but entered waves much better and with much greater wave-catching range, even at smaller lengths and lower volumes. I've ridden friends' boards who can't surf at all, and they surf their boards better than I can because they've adapted to mainly going straight on boards that are very difficult to turn. On those, when I take off, I generally fall face first into the side of the wave when I try to make my first bottom turn.

Maybe it's because I'm an LB'ing noob, but I don't see how there can be any absolutes about good/bad when it comes to boards or fins. And then when you add in the variation of self-shapes and flawed boards -- a whole other challenge as far as matching fins to boards -- good/bad is even more variable.

On the whole, the review part of my original posts was just to share what to me was a neato discovery, i.e. that a real weird fin was a lot of fun to ride on a wonky board that wasn't as much fun with much more established, readily available contemporary fins.

like
0
Huck's picture
Joined: 12/07/2009

Batfische - your original post here was lengthy, but heartfelt. I considered it had enough merit to re-post in regular format, and I also moved the topic from archives to general discussion. 

Any hands on reviews and commentary are worthwhile, as this is the heartbeat and life of progressive design, and very much in tune with the spirit and purpose of the forum.

like
0
Huck's picture
Joined: 12/07/2009

Batfische - your original post here was lengthy, but heartfelt. I considered it had enough merit to re-post in regular format, and I also moved the topic from archives to general discussion. 

Any hands on reviews and commentary are worthwhile, as this is the heartbeat and life of progressive design, and very much in tune with the spirit and purpose of the forum.

There are plenty of ideas long ago ditched by the mainstream industry that are still cause for stoke and further investigation to some, i.e. finless, twin fins, midlength, etc etc

like
0
batfische's picture
Joined: 05/07/2013
Sincere thanks, Huck. I found a no-longer-in-production fin that I really wanted to find, thanks to this thread and your moving it. Learned more than what shows on the thread. A whole lot of fortuitousness, imo.
like
0
batfische's picture
Joined: 05/07/2013
p.s. that photo Halcyon posted, with the pointy "nubster"-esque fin, prompts me to add: I have multiple nubsters for a bunch of reasons too goofy to get into. After getting them and fooling around with them, I had the opportunity to play around with that fin of H's. It is pretty F'in cool. He calls it "The Marlin" (I think? I don't want to misstate). For all center box nubster uses, I think I would use that instead of a "guitar pick" nubster.
like
0