The white non-woven "fabric" is what makes them even whiter. Also masks the bead pattern of the EPS. You do see the perforations at areas such as where the shaper signs the board and over the fin boxes. With a 1mm (approx) mat as a core between laminates of woven glass it seems like it would be called sandwich or cored construction. Interesting use of resins as well. The top layer seems to be hand laminated with polyester resin. Most likely UV cure. Don't believe it just sand the outer layer if you ever get the chance. I have several customers that have Coils and I have gained this information from doing ding repairs on them. They are extremely durable and ding repair is rarely needed. The big chunks came from one that was ran over in head high surf by the customers girlfriend. The outer layer does not exhibit nearly the adhesion that the inner laminates do which I assume is because they are done with epoxy. I also wonder if the polyester outer layer contributes to the flex characteristics or is done for economy and cosmetic reasons. The flex is probably the best out there even better than a pro glass job pu/pe with its very limited lifespan.
Listen, I mean no disrespect but I gotta say this: I'm as intrigued as anyone by the coil construction process, and don't have the privilege of owning one. Probably never will. But I'm really not cool with the idea of reverse-engineering MD and the Brasington's hard work in an internet forum. Frankly I'd prefer to see them reap the fruitage for as long as they can, knowing that eventually others will catch on and start mimicking.
Dave, you and I have traded a few emails on this and I have told you my opinion in private, and asked you not to persue this.. Now I'm out with it. What you are doing is wrong. You should not be required to tell everyone everything you know in order to post here. Every builder/shaper worth his salt keeps a few secrets. It is tough enough trying to make a living shaping and building and if Mike and his crew have an edge, God bless them. Yes there is some promotion going on with Coil. Heck, all of us are promoting something, whether it is our own personal genius (right) or some notion that we build boards and are therefore cool.
Mike has helped plenty of people here with many many tips and good advice. If you continue to poke Coil in the eye, we wil lose Mike and all the help he would give us. There are too many rookies here posing as vetrens behind their computer screens. We need guys like Mike and Bert and GL and others (you know who you are) with 10's of thousands of boards under their belts giving good solid advice (and some smart alecy remarks occationally) so we can advance our skills.
Please let it go.
like
0
Personally I'm always ready to learn, although I do not always like being taught. - Winston Churchill
I warned Mike about this exact thing here--he always assures me Coil's "Formula 1" isn't in serious danger.
What is real is that Mike is a seriously great guy, a great father, a great shaper, and a personal friend to several people here, including me, I'd like to think (call me again--flat season is nigh upon me) and what Greg Tate said is on the money.(E-mail, Greg!)
I do not understand how this is poking Coil in the eye. I have only praised their quality and performance. All the hype about high fiber content, not being core/sandwich construction, and proprietary processes only serve to pique the interest of someone interested in surfboard design on a "Surfboard Design Forum". It seems to me that if you want to keep a secret you should not constantly flaunt that you have a secret. I hope it isn't the end of the world that I exposed some Kiteboarding technology that has been applied to surfboards.
hi, i think any posts here about boards that alude to special fabrics and construction methods really pique the interest of most builders amateur or profesional, look what happened to the burt style boards once he posted up his vac forming thread, he never actually showed how to build with balsa but everyone soon worked it out ,
its the same with coil ,the more posts on their boards the more people are interested , the more you think about how they are doing things , dave d has posted up some pics of some sort of fabric ,i don/t see he has let the cat out of the bag,
my own thoughts are if you use lots of glass like has been reported even vac bagged down the board will be stiff , just make up some fin panels with lots of glass compressed down and the fins feel rigid ,
canoe builders have the same problems ,the more glass they use ,the less the canoes flex without craking or shatering , a lot of them use a polyester type fabric sandwhiched between glass to achieve flexability and a bit less weight ,
have a search for diolene ,it seems ideal for what is needed, i don/t know if that is what the fabric dave has posted or not but even if it was it still would take a lot of time and effort to dial it all in to the level of what coil have done ,
it may not be diolene and then all your efforts have been wasted,so i don/t feel dave has done anything unethical but if you post up boards for disscusion or viewing it does get people thinking so no one should be suprised if a few thoughts,ideas or pics get banded about, pete
I'm really not cool with the idea of reverse-engineering MD and the
Brasington's hard work in an internet forum. Frankly I'd prefer to see
them reap the fruitage for as long as they can, knowing that eventually
others will catch on and start mimicking.
Even if someone did crack the Coil secret was the capital cost for this process cheap? By cheap, I mean the amount of money your average backyarder is willing to spend. Yeah that cheap. Kind of nullifies the objective of finding out what's involved if this is the case.
So you're a backyarder and you find out what the Coil secret is and you plaster it all over Sways. Only problem is it requires a hundred grand of capital. Congratulations, you've just saved a few large overseas companies quite a bit of time and effort in research for free of charge. Hope it was worth it...
I know everyone wants to be PC about it, but the fact is that the boards are out there and if anyone wanted to unlock a few of the readily attainable material secrets they could easily do so....this is the nature of the product; Thinking Firewire couldn't get their hands on one and definitively determine the materials in use is laughable...in fact, didn't we have a Firewire core at the camp out?
I'm sure that the Coil crew has protected their IP insomuch as they can legally (hopefully) which would prevent someone from taking this scant bit of info and running with it in any meaningful way.
Epoxy inner and poly outer with some mystery cloth...this is not new news guys...
That someone posted a novel bit of information that doesn't even begin to touch on the full breadth of the process that must be achieved is trivial at best.
The fact of the matter is that I want to buy a Coil even MORE after getting a peek under the skirt.
Not exactly what I meant by "more pics" but it's interesting none-the-less. I'd like to see more of Mike Daniel's finished shapes. Having had 3 Coils glassed by the Brasingtons but shaped by another shaper, I can say without a doubt that the construction process is secondary in how a "Coil" board performs. First and foremost you have to have the shape right to account for the construction process. I've gone through this the hard way trying to figure it out through trial-and-error through numerous boards, and have ended up with a board I'm really happy with that is likely a few steps behind where MD is currently.
I doubt they are too scared by people knowing the secret sauce in their recipe. You still have to know how to cook it all together.
afoaf, my experience has been to go shorter, wider and thinner, but that's keeping the foil typical of an average shortboard. That's why I'm curious to see more of MD's boards and how he implements his staged rocker and the outline curves. That probably allows dimensions closer to what a poly board would be, but still give the feel and performance of the Coil construction.
Bert had mentioned a lot about altering the shape to suit the construction, but as we all know, surfers aren't exactly the most open-minded flock of sheep. So it's easier to keep the dimensions familiar and get creative with the foil to get the flex where it needs to be, than it is to force dimensions on the surfer that they may not be comfortable with.
I'm willing to let the dimensions fall where they need to in order to get the feel right and keep a somewhat normal foil, rather than go down the path of staged foil which throws a bunch more variables into the mix.
I asked mike about altering the shape of ones board in order to mazimize the performance out of the coil one orders, he said there isn't really a lot they do, just thin the tail slightly. I am out of state right now for my sisters graduation, but the foil has a very minor stepping near probably the back 1/3 of the board, it does not impact the rail foil, which is the point where it really matters.
Hey Wouter, New to the site and have been looking into getting a Coil. Have a couple friends who have em and are raving on them. Specifically looking at a fishy quad sort of board for summer (dare I say, Firewire Quadfish or CI Fishcuit). Nothing retro, more high performance, for sure. I think you mentioned you had a 5'9, what is your normal shortboard size? I ride a 6'0 X 18 3/4 X 2 1/4 as my normal board dims and looking to get something in between that and my 5'10 old school twin. Something for those waist high summer days. I was looking at maybe getting a 5'6 in a shape similar to what you've got.
Going to share an excerpt from an email I just sent someone who recently ordered a springfish and wanted to know more about what to expect from it:
Springfish is a hell of a board, been riding mine a lot lately. I assure you that you will be pleased.
Mike really went minimal on it; I'm 6'0" and 175-185, and the board is
5'6"x21"x2 3/8" with a very pronounced hump-deck and super bladed
rails, nose, and tail. He actually gave me the option of his standard
(more cruise-y) vs. low (more performancy) volume, and he gave me the
latter (0.79 sq ft, similar to my standard shortboard) since I said I
wanted to push this board both in and above the water. I feel I can
surf the board like a shortboard (more slashing vs. banking turns and
aim above the lip through turns rather than under it) , but it still
has the width and planing to handle the small stuff. One has to be
pretty quick and aware to keep the bladed rails from catching at times,
but it is well-worth the trade-off to tap into the performance of the
rails IMO. If worried about that, discuss it with Mike and maybe go
with the more standard/higher volume (?)
I've only ridden it with the FK-3 keel fins, but now have it outfitted
with a quad-fin set for my next fish session (maybe tomorrow AM).
It has FCS fusion plugs on it and so far so good, even with the big keels.
Since we've made a few boards for some of the Sways crew (and more on the way), it's time to have a place to post those ride reports. So if you've got a Coil Construction shooter shaped by either Kirk Brasington or myself, or if you've stolen your friend's for a few waves, here's your chance to talk about it...
i have been riding my Coil Springfish for a couple months now.
It did take adjusting in my surfing, i had never owned a fish before.
at first, the volume [at least for me] of 30+ liters, or 1.09 cubic feet combined with the weight of 3300 grams or so, was not feeling real smal wavish.. i had trouble getting in. for a while... but as time passed by, i found out that i could position myself further up and up, adn play with the fins too... twins in really small waves, and quad for anything over hip high.. it does make a change...
so now, i can catch the really small ones and still do what i want...
but what i like best, is to surf it in waves that are shoulder high or bigger. the board went on a trip with me to france, spain and portugal, together with the other coil i own btw... it is sooooo cool, to do these crazy late drops with it, just insane. Just the other day here in holland, we had some decent sized waves, and my friends were hooting for the super late under the lip take offs. Because it is so short, 5ft9in, i can just do it anytime ... really!
And there is more to like too. usually i do turns on the wave face. with the fish one just has to bash the fins out, and slide the board through the turns and then do it again. OR, do really hard rail surfing, but i do that more in french and southern waves, ours are more mellow usually. i now do those fins out turns on big waves too, and i just let go, ..... i dont worry about sticking it, i just do so nearly everytime. i am not stating it is the board only, but is sure does allow for it, just bust through lips and land without worries. Like the roundtailed board allows for effortless off the tops, this one allows for effortless all fins out turns...
i am loving my fish more, especially after lending it to a friend for a while, surfing one of my own, a 6.0 Quad, when i got back to the fish, i just felt the ease in it again.
So, after a hard time getting to know the board, i have actually bonded to it more than i thought. i cursed myself for this impulsive end year bonus purchase [and my girlfriend did too] but i am very happy now, in summertime... up for winter now! i can dream about indo too, but it might just outrun tubes...
You are very welcome, Wouter. We did that board for the average windswell days, but it's always a bonus to find that the range of the board goes outside those lines. The fish came from some of best reefbreaks in SoCal, it was originally designed to handle some power. As long as you keep them low volume they still do. A couple of years ago I was riding my 5'10'' up to about two feet OH, as long as surface conditions were smooth. Age and a magic 6'6'' trifin have taken over lately.
i cursed myself for this impulsive end year bonus purchase [and my girlfriend did too] but i am very happy now, in summertime... up for winter now! i can dream about indo too, but it might just outrun tubes...
so, thanks mike!
other than buying more to round out a quiver, the board is going to more than pay for itself on the wave count. My coil was a pro's board for a year before being mine for the past 10 months and it shows no signs of slowing down.
Wouter, I had a similar experience with my Coil fish. It was a little sketchy at first, and I was thinking I needed more volume, but I stuck with it and this 58 year old is riding a 6-0 fish. about 1.1 CUFT, I think. We just haven't had any waves, and I have probably regressed to the point of having to start all over learning to ride the darn thing.
And where ARE the pictures?
like
0
Personally I'm always ready to learn, although I do not always like being taught. - Winston Churchill
Really want to get a side-shot that shows the foil, since that is where the magic is.
Action shots coming whenever I schedules allow.
Oh yes, recently rode it as a quad in the smallest (but cleanest) of surf. It definitely felt a more sensitive and less hang-up-y; very "free" and submissive. Can't wait to get it in something a little more substantial to really smoke the tires.
Mike would it be possible to have a rice paper laminate of art laminated into your the boards? I'm a graphic artist and printed some art that I created and recently had Tom Neilson shape me a poly board and he had it laminated into the board. I have seen your shapes around and would like to try one out. I also had Tom make me an epoxy stringerless board called a razor which seemed similar to yours but they are not vacuumed bagged.
Best to talk about the graphics by em or pm, but I checked with Kirk Brasington and he said ''anything is possible''.
Regarding the previous springfish comments, thanks to all. I get to re-live my childhood every time I shape one of those. I think it was about my 5th or 6th board when I shaped my first fish, and I was 17 years old at the time. Full-on garage grooviness (or maybe porch or carport, every time I did one I got told to do the next one ''somewhere else").
Coil Construction brings a new dimension to these boards. As seen by the rider's comments. It's very gratifying. Thanks, guys.
i've had my coil for over 2 years. it's not as white as when i first got it, but it's still the same color as a newish poly board. i've managed to ding it a couple times, but only on the rails where the fibers meet and it takes a good amount of force to slightly crack it(ie. getting blown across rocks or a knee to the rail). other than the slight cracks on the rails i can't imagine breaking it. it has survived waves that would easily break any other board. i ordered it when i was 140lbs and now i'm 170+ and it works fine. i'm 5'9''. the board is 5'11'' / 18'' / 2'' / .71 ft³. i love it, it's super fast, turns well, and i can make ANY drop with it. here are some pics of it in action.
Thanks for all the pics! When the site was revamped a lot of the images from the beginning of this thread were lost. New pics of barrel-riding teenagers are welcomed. Good long-term review also. Great to hear from you and I'll look forward to hearing from your brother.
So I am going to give a second report on saks fish that I got to ride this morning at the NJ coil get together. too bad more of you didn't show up, we had 5 boards and 3 people who were showed up just for the event.
It feels dragless and skims over the flat sections. That leads you to believe you have to do those long fish bottom turns and high line drops. But don't believe it. I probably did my best turn of the morning on that board. the projection on it is awesome. I highly recommend getting one. In fact, I now have a delema, get one of these fish or get my new shortboard.
I knew you'd like Sak's springfish. Was it set up as a quad or twin when you ''tested''?
He had it set up as a quad.
You would think that since 90% of the time Sak and I surf together that I might have tried his widerboard at some point, but we just never got around to it. Tried it out on Saturday in Spring Lake. I can tell that I am REALLY going to like the Coil I have coming to me. It was set up as a thruster. I'm not really a thruster fan. Quads always seemed to work better for me. I never liked that initial pump you have to give a thruster to get it to engage. However, the flex of the coil and the sharp rails on that board made that initial pump feel better than any other thruster I've ever ridden. Definitely liked the board. The waves weren't really good enough to give it a full review, but from the few waves I had I am now itching to get my new Coil and ride it as *shock* a thruster!
It's about time I post on the coil. Mike made me one back somewhere around March 07 and it is my battle axe! Along with being my main board at home it has 3 trips to costa rica and a trip to PR and seen lots of solid swell. Minus a front foot well and a small ding or two it still looks new.
As for performance, when you figure out how to use the flex of the board it can change they way you look at a wave. It certainly has no problem generating speed out of turns which is probably my favorite charateristic.The big downside is that I no longer make my semi annual trip to order a new board. Now its just every 2.5 years. I'm stoked on ordering a new a rocket fish 5 fin setup this coming week just to keep things fresh! Once I get the new one I will post pics along with the first generation. Also some action shots if I can dig some up.
Hey foamball, thanks for the report. It was fun to see your 2.5 yr old Coil holding up well. We don't talk about durability much, as it's really just a side effect of packing enough fiber in the structure to tune the ''feel'' just right. Nice bonus to have, though. Kirk and Eric Brasington's Coil process yields industry-best fiber-to-resin ratios. They've been at it since '92, lots of time for tuning and advancement, as well as thousands of boards of experience. A very different manufacturing technique, a very different product. Blowing up ''how everyone else does it'' every day....
My first generation coil is my go to board. Although durability is just a byproduct of the process it is great when you get a magic board like my first generation. At 2.5 years I always have a sense of familiarity under my feet! Unlike my previous PU boards there is still life in the board once I get them dialed in. I'm ready to give the first one a rest once the new one is done.
Although Mike is probably too humble to admit it he is a class act and one heck of a shaper. I met with him yesterday to work on the new board and his knowledge on surfboard design is scary! Also his patience and ability to discipher all the non functional ideas in my head is pretty cool. Anyways I'm stoked on the new board!!
MIKE DUDE, been back in va beach fix'n boards 2 1/2 years now, fix a few coils , the only thing that has been wrong is simple stuff , like cracks around fin boxes..2 buckle noses..not bad seeing how everything else i fix is falling apart in my hands..COILS are some strong boards...Tell the Twins to keep everyone guessing i love it...ET
Thanks for the pro ding repair perspective on Coil.
For those that may not know ET, he's been up to his elbows in glue for the past 40+ years. I got to know him back in the mid-80s when he was part of a classic crew down the street at Rainbow Surfboards. What a group! Gotta do a rundown....
Owner/shaper Doug Wright (now a famous boat designer). "I work so fast I'm always finished" Stu Sharpe (still shaping, T&C). Airbrusher Mike ''Nemo'' Nemnich (now a famous artist). Hero laminator (and head funny-man) Dave ''Davo'' Dedrick. A young Jesse Fernandez (went on to be 4-time ASP East longboard champ and now shaper at WRV) on fins and hotcoats. Super-sander Mike Cote (now at NASA's Shuttle Orbiter Processing Facility, and sanding for Coil). And of course ET, whose glossing room was a cornucopia of graffiti and artful representations of the female form. Those were some fun times....
Anybody in the VB area who needs quality repairs, Coil or other, or any kind of wet work, should look him up.
RDJ has some pics at his blog from a recent coil get-together in NJ. In the pic below the three boards in the foreground are mine (6'2" rockered-out shortboard made for hollow NJ barrels, 6'0" Widerboard "5-fin convertible", and 5'6" "Springfish".
Here is a copy of a quick email I sent off to Mike regarding riding the 6"2" on the Hurr Bill swell (I think I already reviewed this board previously in this thread, but it was in considerably smaller surf that did not necessarily compliment this well-rockered board). Unfortunately family obligations kept me out of the water during the peak of the swell (Sunday), but I did manage to get in on Monday when the swell was on the decline but there were still some solid, throwy sets in a bit-too-low tide. Admittedly I talk more of durability than damage in the excerpt, but rest assured that I was feeling really confident on this board and made a practice spinning under the lip and taking off pretty late and deep.
"Rode the rockered-out shortie, good to finally put that board into
waves it is suited for. I did have a collision with a guy on
the inside (I was in the barrel he was just recovering his lost board,
all I could do was hold my line and hope for the best). Absolutely
destroyed the rail of his board, the area around the futures box on my
board is stressed with a few visible crackles but still seems rock
solid and not leaking whatsoever.
I don't think it will need repair, but will assess it better later
tonight (make sure no water weeped out of it). even if not, I may sand and
re-surface it to make sure it is 100% water-tight anyway. To
his credit, he apologized profusely and did not make any stink about
his board."
because of this thread i contacted mike daniel and ordered a board . i went with a widerboard so i would surf it 75% of the time here in so cal. i am 6-1 175 - 160 . board is 6-2 ,19 1/4, 2 1/4 . 5 fin set up . my favorite board i have ever had ! surfs good in the knee to waist stuff and goes amazing in the better waves . i surf lowers or new port most of the time . mushy or steep it goes off . love how sturdy and rugged the constuction is with all the rail banging that happens at lowers. looking forward to getting a qualifier and a step up to have a complete coil quiver .
Thanks for the feedback knowaloha. I'm also getting a board I can use 75-85% of the time. I'm all for a quiver. But I want one board for almost everything unless its going off or its flat and then I need some kinda "flying rocket biscut". I'm 5-11,147lbs and I'm getting a wider 5-11. I've been following coil ride forum for a couple years now even though I just joined. Thanks everybody for all the great feedback.
Here are some pictures of the new board. It is a combo of two different boards I have been riding. I think this one might be dangerous. It's a 5'11" 19.75 x 2.25 rocket fish. It has a tri/quad setup with the fcs fusion and is a single concave with a subtle wing/bump in the tail. I had to go and paint it a little just to make it mine. I'm no Drew Brophy with a spray paint can as I found out! After lots of taping, some overspray a few curse words and a little sanding it all came out looking great. Going for round one in the morning!
2 sessions about 5 hours total. Conditions varied from long walled up and dumpy to long lined up crumbly waves, all around chest to head high with offshore wind!
I was kind of blown away at the speed from the quad setup. This was my first time riding a quad and I didn't know what to expect, especially after riding thrusters for the last 15 yrs. What I found out was that I could beat sections that I normally couldn't make. It was similar in speed to a twin but it holds well when put on a rail. It tooke me a couple hours to figure how to use the speed rather than abuse it. As usual it has that overall charateristic that my last coil had. Very lively, springy and overall just a lot of fun to ride. By far the most enjoyable first session on a new board. This is one's a keeper!
I have a coil that Mike shaped for me.It is kinda of on the lines of the lost rocket theory but done with a template that mike had from the 80's.It is 5'5 19 2 diamond tail.It is basically all I ride right now cause it goes everywhere real easy!The thing sticks to my feet like my feet have velcro on them.It fits into the beach break waves I surf alot here in south florida.I will post up some pics as soon as I can.Pretty damn cool board.
Coil Fiber
Glass: inner lam top fragment (against EPS) and outer lam (polyester) bottom fragment. The "fabric" is sandwiched between these pieces.
The white non-woven "fabric" is what makes them even whiter. Also masks the bead pattern of the EPS. You do see the perforations at areas such as where the shaper signs the board and over the fin boxes. With a 1mm (approx) mat as a core between laminates of woven glass it seems like it would be called sandwich or cored construction. Interesting use of resins as well. The top layer seems to be hand laminated with polyester resin. Most likely UV cure. Don't believe it just sand the outer layer if you ever get the chance. I have several customers that have Coils and I have gained this information from doing ding repairs on them. They are extremely durable and ding repair is rarely needed. The big chunks came from one that was ran over in head high surf by the customers girlfriend. The outer layer does not exhibit nearly the adhesion that the inner laminates do which I assume is because they are done with epoxy. I also wonder if the polyester outer layer contributes to the flex characteristics or is done for economy and cosmetic reasons. The flex is probably the best out there even better than a pro glass job pu/pe with its very limited lifespan.
regards,
Dave_D
Howzit Dave,
Listen, I mean no disrespect but I gotta say this: I'm as intrigued as anyone by the coil construction process, and don't have the privilege of owning one. Probably never will. But I'm really not cool with the idea of reverse-engineering MD and the Brasington's hard work in an internet forum. Frankly I'd prefer to see them reap the fruitage for as long as they can, knowing that eventually others will catch on and start mimicking.
Just my 2 cents. Do what you will.
Aloha,
Drew
Dave, you and I have traded a few emails on this and I have told you my opinion in private, and asked you not to persue this.. Now I'm out with it. What you are doing is wrong. You should not be required to tell everyone everything you know in order to post here. Every builder/shaper worth his salt keeps a few secrets. It is tough enough trying to make a living shaping and building and if Mike and his crew have an edge, God bless them. Yes there is some promotion going on with Coil. Heck, all of us are promoting something, whether it is our own personal genius (right) or some notion that we build boards and are therefore cool.
Mike has helped plenty of people here with many many tips and good advice. If you continue to poke Coil in the eye, we wil lose Mike and all the help he would give us. There are too many rookies here posing as vetrens behind their computer screens. We need guys like Mike and Bert and GL and others (you know who you are) with 10's of thousands of boards under their belts giving good solid advice (and some smart alecy remarks occationally) so we can advance our skills.
Please let it go.
Personally I'm always ready to learn, although I do not always like being taught. - Winston Churchill
I warned Mike about this exact thing here--he always assures me Coil's "Formula 1" isn't in serious danger.
What is real is that Mike is a seriously great guy, a great father, a great shaper, and a personal friend to several people here, including me, I'd like to think (call me again--flat season is nigh upon me) and what Greg Tate said is on the money.(E-mail, Greg!)
greg
Greg,
I do not understand how this is poking Coil in the eye. I have only praised their quality and performance. All the hype about high fiber content, not being core/sandwich construction, and proprietary processes only serve to pique the interest of someone interested in surfboard design on a "Surfboard Design Forum". It seems to me that if you want to keep a secret you should not constantly flaunt that you have a secret. I hope it isn't the end of the world that I exposed some Kiteboarding technology that has been applied to surfboards.
dd
nm
cheers huie
now retired
hi, i think any posts here about boards that alude to special fabrics and construction methods really pique the interest of most builders amateur or profesional, look what happened to the burt style boards once he posted up his vac forming thread, he never actually showed how to build with balsa but everyone soon worked it out ,
its the same with coil ,the more posts on their boards the more people are interested , the more you think about how they are doing things , dave d has posted up some pics of some sort of fabric ,i don/t see he has let the cat out of the bag,
my own thoughts are if you use lots of glass like has been reported even vac bagged down the board will be stiff , just make up some fin panels with lots of glass compressed down and the fins feel rigid ,
canoe builders have the same problems ,the more glass they use ,the less the canoes flex without craking or shatering , a lot of them use a polyester type fabric sandwhiched between glass to achieve flexability and a bit less weight ,
have a search for diolene ,it seems ideal for what is needed, i don/t know if that is what the fabric dave has posted or not but even if it was it still would take a lot of time and effort to dial it all in to the level of what coil have done ,
it may not be diolene and then all your efforts have been wasted,so i don/t feel dave has done anything unethical but if you post up boards for disscusion or viewing it does get people thinking so no one should be suprised if a few thoughts,ideas or pics get banded about, pete
+1. Big-time.
Even if someone did crack the Coil secret was the capital cost for this process cheap? By cheap, I mean the amount of money your average backyarder is willing to spend. Yeah that cheap. Kind of nullifies the objective of finding out what's involved if this is the case.
So you're a backyarder and you find out what the Coil secret is and you plaster it all over Sways. Only problem is it requires a hundred grand of capital. Congratulations, you've just saved a few large overseas companies quite a bit of time and effort in research for free of charge. Hope it was worth it...
Props.
Thanks for sharing.
I know everyone wants to be PC about it, but the fact is that the boards are out there and if anyone wanted to unlock a few of the readily attainable material secrets they could easily do so....this is the nature of the product; Thinking Firewire couldn't get their hands on one and definitively determine the materials in use is laughable...in fact, didn't we have a Firewire core at the camp out?
I'm sure that the Coil crew has protected their IP insomuch as they can legally (hopefully) which would prevent someone from taking this scant bit of info and running with it in any meaningful way.
Epoxy inner and poly outer with some mystery cloth...this is not new news guys...
That someone posted a novel bit of information that doesn't even begin to touch on the full breadth of the process that must be achieved is trivial at best.
The fact of the matter is that I want to buy a Coil even MORE after getting a peek under the skirt.
Not exactly what I meant by "more pics" but it's interesting none-the-less. I'd like to see more of Mike Daniel's finished shapes. Having had 3 Coils glassed by the Brasingtons but shaped by another shaper, I can say without a doubt that the construction process is secondary in how a "Coil" board performs. First and foremost you have to have the shape right to account for the construction process. I've gone through this the hard way trying to figure it out through trial-and-error through numerous boards, and have ended up with a board I'm really happy with that is likely a few steps behind where MD is currently.
I doubt they are too scared by people knowing the secret sauce in their recipe. You still have to know how to cook it all together.
would you care to share your experiences?
is it a matter of thinning out the inner foam, less dome, etc to accommodate stiffer, yet livelier materials?
afoaf, my experience has been to go shorter, wider and thinner, but that's keeping the foil typical of an average shortboard. That's why I'm curious to see more of MD's boards and how he implements his staged rocker and the outline curves. That probably allows dimensions closer to what a poly board would be, but still give the feel and performance of the Coil construction.
Bert had mentioned a lot about altering the shape to suit the construction, but as we all know, surfers aren't exactly the most open-minded flock of sheep. So it's easier to keep the dimensions familiar and get creative with the foil to get the flex where it needs to be, than it is to force dimensions on the surfer that they may not be comfortable with.
I'm willing to let the dimensions fall where they need to in order to get the feel right and keep a somewhat normal foil, rather than go down the path of staged foil which throws a bunch more variables into the mix.
I asked mike about altering the shape of ones board in order to mazimize the performance out of the coil one orders, he said there isn't really a lot they do, just thin the tail slightly. I am out of state right now for my sisters graduation, but the foil has a very minor stepping near probably the back 1/3 of the board, it does not impact the rail foil, which is the point where it really matters.
Hey Wouter,
New to the site and have been looking into getting a Coil. Have a couple friends who have em and are raving on them. Specifically looking at a fishy quad sort of board for summer (dare I say, Firewire Quadfish or CI Fishcuit). Nothing retro, more high performance, for sure. I think you mentioned you had a 5'9, what is your normal shortboard size? I ride a 6'0 X 18 3/4 X 2 1/4 as my normal board dims and looking to get something in between that and my 5'10 old school twin. Something for those waist high summer days. I was looking at maybe getting a 5'6 in a shape similar to what you've got.
Thanks.
Going to share an excerpt from an email I just sent someone who recently ordered a springfish and wanted to know more about what to expect from it:
Springfish is a hell of a board, been riding mine a lot lately. I assure you that you will be pleased.
Mike really went minimal on it; I'm 6'0" and 175-185, and the board is 5'6"x21"x2 3/8" with a very pronounced hump-deck and super bladed rails, nose, and tail. He actually gave me the option of his standard (more cruise-y) vs. low (more performancy) volume, and he gave me the latter (0.79 sq ft, similar to my standard shortboard) since I said I wanted to push this board both in and above the water. I feel I can surf the board like a shortboard (more slashing vs. banking turns and aim above the lip through turns rather than under it) , but it still has the width and planing to handle the small stuff. One has to be pretty quick and aware to keep the bladed rails from catching at times, but it is well-worth the trade-off to tap into the performance of the rails IMO. If worried about that, discuss it with Mike and maybe go with the more standard/higher volume (?)
I've only ridden it with the FK-3 keel fins, but now have it outfitted with a quad-fin set for my next fish session (maybe tomorrow AM).
It has FCS fusion plugs on it and so far so good, even with the big keels.
i have been riding my Coil Springfish for a couple months now.
It did take adjusting in my surfing, i had never owned a fish before.
at first, the volume [at least for me] of 30+ liters, or 1.09 cubic feet combined with the weight of 3300 grams or so, was not feeling real smal wavish.. i had trouble getting in. for a while... but as time passed by, i found out that i could position myself further up and up, adn play with the fins too... twins in really small waves, and quad for anything over hip high.. it does make a change...
so now, i can catch the really small ones and still do what i want...
but what i like best, is to surf it in waves that are shoulder high or bigger. the board went on a trip with me to france, spain and portugal, together with the other coil i own btw... it is sooooo cool, to do these crazy late drops with it, just insane. Just the other day here in holland, we had some decent sized waves, and my friends were hooting for the super late under the lip take offs. Because it is so short, 5ft9in, i can just do it anytime ... really!
And there is more to like too. usually i do turns on the wave face. with the fish one just has to bash the fins out, and slide the board through the turns and then do it again. OR, do really hard rail surfing, but i do that more in french and southern waves, ours are more mellow usually. i now do those fins out turns on big waves too, and i just let go, ..... i dont worry about sticking it, i just do so nearly everytime. i am not stating it is the board only, but is sure does allow for it, just bust through lips and land without worries. Like the roundtailed board allows for effortless off the tops, this one allows for effortless all fins out turns...
i am loving my fish more, especially after lending it to a friend for a while, surfing one of my own, a 6.0 Quad, when i got back to the fish, i just felt the ease in it again.
So, after a hard time getting to know the board, i have actually bonded to it more than i thought. i cursed myself for this impulsive end year bonus purchase [and my girlfriend did too] but i am very happy now, in summertime... up for winter now! i can dream about indo too, but it might just outrun tubes...
so, thanks mike!
Where are the pics?
You are very welcome, Wouter. We did that board for the average windswell days, but it's always a bonus to find that the range of the board goes outside those lines. The fish came from some of best reefbreaks in SoCal, it was originally designed to handle some power. As long as you keep them low volume they still do. A couple of years ago I was riding my 5'10'' up to about two feet OH, as long as surface conditions were smooth. Age and a magic 6'6'' trifin have taken over lately.
[email protected]
other than buying more to round out a quiver, the board is going to more than pay for itself on the wave count. My coil was a pro's board for a year before being mine for the past 10 months and it shows no signs of slowing down.
Wouter, I had a similar experience with my Coil fish. It was a little sketchy at first, and I was thinking I needed more volume, but I stuck with it and this 58 year old is riding a 6-0 fish. about 1.1 CUFT, I think. We just haven't had any waves, and I have probably regressed to the point of having to start all over learning to ride the darn thing.
And where ARE the pictures?
Personally I'm always ready to learn, although I do not always like being taught. - Winston Churchill
Sorry for the bad light and all that...
Really want to get a side-shot that shows the foil, since that is where the magic is.
Action shots coming whenever I schedules allow.
Oh yes, recently rode it as a quad in the smallest (but cleanest) of surf. It definitely felt a more sensitive and less hang-up-y; very "free" and submissive. Can't wait to get it in something a little more substantial to really smoke the tires.
Mike would it be possible to have a rice paper laminate of art laminated into your the boards? I'm a graphic artist and printed some art that I created and recently had Tom Neilson shape me a poly board and he had it laminated into the board. I have seen your shapes around and would like to try one out. I also had Tom make me an epoxy stringerless board called a razor which seemed similar to yours but they are not vacuumed bagged.
Thanks, PJ
Best to talk about the graphics by em or pm, but I checked with Kirk Brasington and he said ''anything is possible''.
Regarding the previous springfish comments, thanks to all. I get to re-live my childhood every time I shape one of those. I think it was about my 5th or 6th board when I shaped my first fish, and I was 17 years old at the time. Full-on garage grooviness (or maybe porch or carport, every time I did one I got told to do the next one ''somewhere else").
Coil Construction brings a new dimension to these boards. As seen by the rider's comments. It's very gratifying. Thanks, guys.
[email protected]
i've had my coil for over 2 years. it's not as white as when i first got it, but it's still the same color as a newish poly board. i've managed to ding it a couple times, but only on the rails where the fibers meet and it takes a good amount of force to slightly crack it(ie. getting blown across rocks or a knee to the rail). other than the slight cracks on the rails i can't imagine breaking it. it has survived waves that would easily break any other board. i ordered it when i was 140lbs and now i'm 170+ and it works fine. i'm 5'9''. the board is 5'11'' / 18'' / 2'' / .71 ft³. i love it, it's super fast, turns well, and i can make ANY drop with it. here are some pics of it in action.
one year ago
[IMG]http://i707.photobucket.com/albums/ww79/gnarsurf/IMG_0346.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i707.photobucket.com/albums/ww79/gnarsurf/PICT0361.jpg[/IMG]
and this year
[IMG]http://i707.photobucket.com/albums/ww79/gnarsurf/IMG_4105July12.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i707.photobucket.com/albums/ww79/gnarsurf/IMG_7919.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i707.photobucket.com/albums/ww79/gnarsurf/IMG_8014.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i707.photobucket.com/albums/ww79/gnarsurf/IMG_8194.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i707.photobucket.com/albums/ww79/gnarsurf/IMG_8195.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i707.photobucket.com/albums/ww79/gnarsurf/IMG_8196.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i707.photobucket.com/albums/ww79/gnarsurf/IMG_8213.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i707.photobucket.com/albums/ww79/gnarsurf/IMG_8214.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i707.photobucket.com/albums/ww79/gnarsurf/IMG_8215.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i707.photobucket.com/albums/ww79/gnarsurf/IMG_8216.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i707.photobucket.com/albums/ww79/gnarsurf/IMG_8217.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i707.photobucket.com/albums/ww79/gnarsurf/IMG_8218.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i707.photobucket.com/albums/ww79/gnarsurf/IMG_8219.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i707.photobucket.com/albums/ww79/gnarsurf/IMG_8220.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i707.photobucket.com/albums/ww79/gnarsurf/IMG_8221.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i707.photobucket.com/albums/ww79/gnarsurf/IMG_8222.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i707.photobucket.com/albums/ww79/gnarsurf/IMG_8223.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i707.photobucket.com/albums/ww79/gnarsurf/IMG_8224.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i707.photobucket.com/albums/ww79/gnarsurf/IMG_8243.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i707.photobucket.com/albums/ww79/gnarsurf/IMG_8244.jpg[/IMG]
and here's one of my brother, i think he is riding his coil
[IMG]http://i707.photobucket.com/albums/ww79/gnarsurf/IMG_8003.jpg[/IMG]
my brother likes his coil, but he doesn't ride it much because he thinks it's too big for him. mike, i think he emailed you about getting a quad.
i'll post some pictures of our boards when i find the cable for my camera.
btw all these pics were taken in nicaragua
Thanks for all the pics! When the site was revamped a lot of the images from the beginning of this thread were lost. New pics of barrel-riding teenagers are welcomed. Good long-term review also. Great to hear from you and I'll look forward to hearing from your brother.
[email protected]
So I am going to give a second report on saks fish that I got to ride this morning at the NJ coil get together. too bad more of you didn't show up, we had 5 boards and 3 people who were showed up just for the event.
It feels dragless and skims over the flat sections. That leads you to believe you have to do those long fish bottom turns and high line drops. But don't believe it. I probably did my best turn of the morning on that board. the projection on it is awesome. I highly recommend getting one. In fact, I now have a delema, get one of these fish or get my new shortboard.
I knew you'd like Sak's springfish. Was it set up as a quad or twin when you ''tested''?
[email protected]
He had it set up as a quad.
You would think that since 90% of the time Sak and I surf together that I might have tried his widerboard at some point, but we just never got around to it. Tried it out on Saturday in Spring Lake. I can tell that I am REALLY going to like the Coil I have coming to me. It was set up as a thruster. I'm not really a thruster fan. Quads always seemed to work better for me. I never liked that initial pump you have to give a thruster to get it to engage. However, the flex of the coil and the sharp rails on that board made that initial pump feel better than any other thruster I've ever ridden. Definitely liked the board. The waves weren't really good enough to give it a full review, but from the few waves I had I am now itching to get my new Coil and ride it as *shock* a thruster!
It's about time I post on the coil. Mike made me one back somewhere around March 07 and it is my battle axe! Along with being my main board at home it has 3 trips to costa rica and a trip to PR and seen lots of solid swell. Minus a front foot well and a small ding or two it still looks new.
As for performance, when you figure out how to use the flex of the board it can change they way you look at a wave. It certainly has no problem generating speed out of turns which is probably my favorite charateristic.The big downside is that I no longer make my semi annual trip to order a new board. Now its just every 2.5 years. I'm stoked on ordering a new a rocket fish 5 fin setup this coming week just to keep things fresh! Once I get the new one I will post pics along with the first generation. Also some action shots if I can dig some up.
Eric
Hey foamball, thanks for the report. It was fun to see your 2.5 yr old Coil holding up well. We don't talk about durability much, as it's really just a side effect of packing enough fiber in the structure to tune the ''feel'' just right. Nice bonus to have, though. Kirk and Eric Brasington's Coil process yields industry-best fiber-to-resin ratios. They've been at it since '92, lots of time for tuning and advancement, as well as thousands of boards of experience. A very different manufacturing technique, a very different product. Blowing up ''how everyone else does it'' every day....
[email protected]
My first generation coil is my go to board. Although durability is just a byproduct of the process it is great when you get a magic board like my first generation. At 2.5 years I always have a sense of familiarity under my feet! Unlike my previous PU boards there is still life in the board once I get them dialed in. I'm ready to give the first one a rest once the new one is done.
Although Mike is probably too humble to admit it he is a class act and one heck of a shaper. I met with him yesterday to work on the new board and his knowledge on surfboard design is scary! Also his patience and ability to discipher all the non functional ideas in my head is pretty cool. Anyways I'm stoked on the new board!!
Thanks Mike!
MIKE DUDE, been back in va beach fix'n boards 2 1/2 years now, fix a few coils , the only thing that has been wrong is simple stuff , like cracks around fin boxes..2 buckle noses..not bad seeing how everything else i fix is falling apart in my hands..COILS are some strong boards...Tell the Twins to keep everyone guessing i love it...ET
ET!!
Thanks for the pro ding repair perspective on Coil.
For those that may not know ET, he's been up to his elbows in glue for the past 40+ years. I got to know him back in the mid-80s when he was part of a classic crew down the street at Rainbow Surfboards. What a group! Gotta do a rundown....
Owner/shaper Doug Wright (now a famous boat designer). "I work so fast I'm always finished" Stu Sharpe (still shaping, T&C). Airbrusher Mike ''Nemo'' Nemnich (now a famous artist). Hero laminator (and head funny-man) Dave ''Davo'' Dedrick. A young Jesse Fernandez (went on to be 4-time ASP East longboard champ and now shaper at WRV) on fins and hotcoats. Super-sander Mike Cote (now at NASA's Shuttle Orbiter Processing Facility, and sanding for Coil). And of course ET, whose glossing room was a cornucopia of graffiti and artful representations of the female form. Those were some fun times....
Anybody in the VB area who needs quality repairs, Coil or other, or any kind of wet work, should look him up.
[email protected]
MD, Thanks ...those were some FUN times back then... ( it was always happy hour ) .....i miss working with the best crew in brevard.....ET
A good friend of mine just moved back down to VB from NJ. A good friend and good person, I'm sad to see him leave. I'll definitely refer him to you.
Thanks Hackeysaky, phone # to my DINGDOM is 757-374-0424...ET
anybody have more coil eye candy I can drool over until my board comes.
RDJ has some pics at his blog from a recent coil get-together in NJ. In the pic below the three boards in the foreground are mine (6'2" rockered-out shortboard made for hollow NJ barrels, 6'0" Widerboard "5-fin convertible", and 5'6" "Springfish".
Here is a copy of a quick email I sent off to Mike regarding riding the 6"2" on the Hurr Bill swell (I think I already reviewed this board previously in this thread, but it was in considerably smaller surf that did not necessarily compliment this well-rockered board). Unfortunately family obligations kept me out of the water during the peak of the swell (Sunday), but I did manage to get in on Monday when the swell was on the decline but there were still some solid, throwy sets in a bit-too-low tide. Admittedly I talk more of durability than damage in the excerpt, but rest assured that I was feeling really confident on this board and made a practice spinning under the lip and taking off pretty late and deep.
"Rode the rockered-out shortie, good to finally put that board into waves it is suited for. I did have a collision with a guy on the inside (I was in the barrel he was just recovering his lost board, all I could do was hold my line and hope for the best). Absolutely destroyed the rail of his board, the area around the futures box on my board is stressed with a few visible crackles but still seems rock solid and not leaking whatsoever. I don't think it will need repair, but will assess it better later tonight (make sure no water weeped out of it). even if not, I may sand and re-surface it to make sure it is 100% water-tight anyway. To his credit, he apologized profusely and did not make any stink about his board."
because of this thread i contacted mike daniel and ordered a board . i went with a widerboard so i would surf it 75% of the time here in so cal. i am 6-1 175 - 160 . board is 6-2 ,19 1/4, 2 1/4 . 5 fin set up . my favorite board i have ever had ! surfs good in the knee to waist stuff and goes amazing in the better waves . i surf lowers or new port most of the time . mushy or steep it goes off . love how sturdy and rugged the constuction is with all the rail banging that happens at lowers. looking forward to getting a qualifier and a step up to have a complete coil quiver .
Thanks for the post. Nice quiver, hopefully that will be me in a couple years here.
Thanks for the feedback knowaloha. I'm also getting a board I can use 75-85% of the time. I'm all for a quiver. But I want one board for almost everything unless its going off or its flat and then I need some kinda "flying rocket biscut". I'm 5-11,147lbs and I'm getting a wider 5-11. I've been following coil ride forum for a couple years now even though I just joined. Thanks everybody for all the great feedback.
Here are some pictures of the new board. It is a combo of two different boards I have been riding. I think this one might be dangerous. It's a 5'11" 19.75 x 2.25 rocket fish. It has a tri/quad setup with the fcs fusion and is a single concave with a subtle wing/bump in the tail. I had to go and paint it a little just to make it mine. I'm no Drew Brophy with a spray paint can as I found out! After lots of taping, some overspray a few curse words and a little sanding it all came out looking great. Going for round one in the morning!
Round one complete!
2 sessions about 5 hours total. Conditions varied from long walled up and dumpy to long lined up crumbly waves, all around chest to head high with offshore wind!
I was kind of blown away at the speed from the quad setup. This was my first time riding a quad and I didn't know what to expect, especially after riding thrusters for the last 15 yrs. What I found out was that I could beat sections that I normally couldn't make. It was similar in speed to a twin but it holds well when put on a rail. It tooke me a couple hours to figure how to use the speed rather than abuse it. As usual it has that overall charateristic that my last coil had. Very lively, springy and overall just a lot of fun to ride. By far the most enjoyable first session on a new board. This is one's a keeper!
Today was a really fun day here, I surfed about 5 hours also. Down-the-line enough to unleash the speed and still places to carve...
If you read back a bit you'll see where you're obligated to do lip smacks and big hacks to burn off that velocity - didn't you get the memo?
[email protected]
I have a coil that Mike shaped for me.It is kinda of on the lines of the lost rocket theory but done with a template that mike had from the 80's.It is 5'5 19 2 diamond tail.It is basically all I ride right now cause it goes everywhere real easy!The thing sticks to my feet like my feet have velcro on them.It fits into the beach break waves I surf alot here in south florida.I will post up some pics as soon as I can.Pretty damn cool board.
Pages