Hey, Tell me, Cant, that's the angle of the fin in relation to the bottom plane of the board, right-- How does it affect board performance. I see very steeple canted fins on bonzers but seldom on other boards. I have my own ideas about how it affect performance but I'd like to hear the voice of experience if it's available. Mahalo, Rich p.s. I see Mavericks is trying to go this morning. Maybe with the afternoon tide they'll be paddling in.
>>> Hey,>>> Tell me, Cant, that's the angle of the fin in relation to the bottom plane > of the board, right-- How does it affect board performance.>>> I see very steeple canted fins on bonzers but seldom on other boards. I > have my own ideas about how it affect performance but I'd like to hear the > voice of experience if it's available.>>> Mahalo, Rich>>> p.s. I see Mavericks is trying to go this morning. Maybe with the > afternoon tide they'll be paddling in. Yea cant is the angle from the bottom and toe in is the angle in relation to the nose.I would like to know more about this stuff myself.All I can do is guess.I can remember building fish shapes back in the late sixties and the fins were straight both ways.Now they do it different.Beats me....R.B.
>>> Yea cant is the angle from the bottom and toe in is the angle in relation > to the nose.I would like to know more about this stuff myself.All I can do > is guess.I can remember building fish shapes back in the late sixties and > the fins were straight both ways.Now they do it different.Beats me....R.B. Cant is angle from an imaginary horzontal plane perdendicular to the stringer. If it was relative to the bottom contour, you'd end up with more cant on tails with vee and less with concaves.
>>> Cant is angle from an imaginary horzontal plane perdendicular to the > stringer. If it was relative to the bottom contour, you'd end up with more > cant on tails with vee and less with concaves. Since the side fins are foiled to the outside adding cant moves the force vector generated by the airfoil above the horizontal plane. Though it’s slight, theoretically it would add a bit of lift to the tail. More so I could see it playing a role in turning; both by creating a smaller cross-sectional area to turn against and since you lean into a turn the cant would help keep the force vector of the inside fin from going below the horizontal (dragging the board under water) and help release the effect of the outside fin sooner. These thoughts are all taken from my knowledge of fluid dynamics, not surfboards. Unfortunately we never studied any surfboards in my classes. I’m sure someone on here can (and will) correct me if I’m wrong. Cheers,
>>> Since the side fins are foiled to the outside adding cant moves the force > vector generated by the airfoil above the horizontal plane. Though its > slight, theoretically it would add a bit of lift to the tail. More so I > could see it playing a role in turning; both by creating a smaller > cross-sectional area to turn against and since you lean into a turn the > cant would help keep the force vector of the inside fin from going below > the horizontal (dragging the board under water) and help release the > effect of the outside fin sooner. These thoughts are all taken from my > knowledge of fluid dynamics, not surfboards. Unfortunately we never > studied any surfboards in my classes. Im sure someone on here can (and > will) correct me if Im wrong.>>> Cheers, Alright cut the crap guys.I,m an old geezer and this tech stuff flys over my balding head.Tell me this...if I cant the fins more outboard what will it do?If cant em inboard what will it do?Also if I change the toe in what will it do?Make it simple...kinda like talking to a child so I can understand.Thanks....R.B.
Ya..I was thinking what Rook said!
>>> Alright cut the crap guys.I,m an old geezer and this tech stuff flys over > my balding head.Tell me this...if I cant the fins more outboard what will > it do?If cant em inboard what will it do?Also if I change the toe in what > will it do?Make it simple...kinda like talking to a child so I can > understand.Thanks....R.B. The more toe,and cant the shorter the turning radius is(turns quicker)and it will also create more vaccum,giving more lift,unfortunately it also slows the board down,like a parachute. The straighter the fins, the faster there are,but they turn like crap.Herb
OK. here is my .02 worth. This all revolves around my messing around with twin fins on older Fish outlines. My old Sunset Cliffs shape twin had two parallel-to-stringer and zero cant. It was stiff and tracked for my average conditions. When I stumbled through the door here at Swaylock's back some 2-3 years ago I was searching for fin specs. In time I found that with the right cant angle helped in getting that wide 17" tail over on the rail. The toe-in stuff just allows you to control the turn radius, more toe-in=tighter arc. Now for a question. I'm going to make my son a new grom type board, 5'6- 5'8 chip etc. I'm thinking that with the lighter weight of the rider and the really shortened rail line then the fin placement (tri-fin) needs to be adjusted, further back it would seem. What kind of numbers are some of you using in these really short shortboards? In other words, trailing edge to tip for Center and Side fins? Tom S. > Alright cut the crap guys.I,m an old geezer and this tech stuff flys over > my balding head.Tell me this...if I cant the fins more outboard what will > it do?If cant em inboard what will it do?Also if I change the toe in what > will it do?Make it simple...kinda like talking to a child so I can > understand.Thanks....R.B.
>>> Since the side fins are foiled to the outside adding cant moves the force > vector generated by the airfoil above the horizontal plane. Though it’s > slight, theoretically it would add a bit of lift to the tail. More so I > could see it playing a role in turning; both by creating a smaller > cross-sectional area to turn against and since you lean into a turn the > cant would help keep the force vector of the inside fin from going below > the horizontal (dragging the board under water) and help release the > effect of the outside fin sooner. These thoughts are all taken from my > knowledge of fluid dynamics, not surfboards. Unfortunately we never > studied any surfboards in my classes. I’m sure someone on here can (and > will) correct me if I’m wrong.>>> Cheers, -- You`re right... more cant + more speed = more lift. In fact, after a certain velocity, the tail will start to rise and handling becomes a serious problem. Combine cant with edge fins which are only foiled on the outside/flat on the inside, plus toe-in and you have a configuration that`ll always be trying to crank around and back up the face. The built-in dilemma with thruster fin set-ups is the fact that at any given time, two of the fins are in directional opposition to the (inside edge) engaged fin. Lots of drag means lots of control in this case, but also a significant loss of top end... one of the primary reasons these designs must continually be pumped rail to rail in order to maintain and develop speed. Small, active "paddle fins" (twist/flex concentrated in the narrow base) really help in resolving the common problem of three, stiff base thruster fins all working against each other.
>>> OK. here is my .02 worth. This all revolves around my messing around with > twin fins on older Fish outlines. My old Sunset Cliffs shape twin had two > parallel-to-stringer and zero cant. It was stiff and tracked for my > average conditions. When I stumbled through the door here at Swaylock's > back some 2-3 years ago I was searching for fin specs. In time I found > that with the right cant angle helped in getting that wide 17" tail > over on the rail. The toe-in stuff just allows you to control the turn > radius, more toe-in=tighter arc.>>> Now for a question. I'm going to make my son a new grom type board, 5'6- > 5'8 chip etc. I'm thinking that with the lighter weight of the rider and > the really shortened rail line then the fin placement (tri-fin) needs to > be adjusted, further back it would seem. What kind of numbers are some of > you using in these really short shortboards? In other words, trailing edge > to tip for Center and Side fins? Keep it simple Tom.Build the kid a baby single finn egg.People are finally discovering that you dont have to thrust a single fin......R.B.>>> Tom S.
Ok Gentlemen: All things being equal-- same board, same fin, same toe in. One rail fin is tilted off verticle 4 degrees out from center, another 16 degrees out from center. How does the two differ in performance? Better Surfin', Rich
>>> Ok Gentlemen:>>> All things being equal-- same board, same fin, same toe in. One rail fin > is tilted off verticle 4 degrees out from center, another 16 degrees out > from center. How does the two differ in performance?>>> Better Surfin', Rich What would the riding characteristics of a thruster be if the side fins were placed closer to the rails (stiffer??) or in closer towards the stringer-relative to most thrusters being ridden nowadays. Thanks, Graham
>>> OK. here is my .02 worth. This all revolves around my messing around with > twin fins on older Fish outlines. My old Sunset Cliffs shape twin had two > parallel-to-stringer and zero cant. It was stiff and tracked for my > average conditions. When I stumbled through the door here at Swaylock's > back some 2-3 years ago I was searching for fin specs. In time I found > that with the right cant angle helped in getting that wide 17" tail > over on the rail. The toe-in stuff just allows you to control the turn > radius, more toe-in=tighter arc.>>> Now for a question. I'm going to make my son a new grom type board, 5'6- > 5'8 chip etc. I'm thinking that with the lighter weight of the rider and > the really shortened rail line then the fin placement (tri-fin) needs to > be adjusted, further back it would seem. What kind of numbers are some of > you using in these really short shortboards? In other words, trailing edge > to tip for Center and Side fins?>>> Tom S. Tom i build a lot of small boards and in that 5'8 range sides 10 1/4 to 1/2 back 3 1/4 but toe them off the tip groms really don't go rail to rail enough to feel the difference. I'm building my girls new boards fr this summer. they weigh about 60 each so i'm thinking about 5'9 x 17 x 2max thin rails Rob
>>> Ok Gentlemen:>>> All things being equal-- same board, same fin, same toe in. One rail fin > is tilted off verticle 4 degrees out from center, another 16 degrees out > from center. How does the two differ in performance?>>> Better Surfin', Rich Ok i hope i'm reading right. 4 degrees will drive more but tend to slide more then the fin at 16. more cant will hold thru a harder turn. Say off the top 16 will hold in better then 4.. 4 will get you around a section better in a longer arc and carry more speed. Then again you never said how much toe??? that would make a big difference. on my boards i tend to go with less cant and less toe but we ride very short flat boards in bigger waves then most in the northwest.. Rob
>>> Alright cut the crap guys.I,m an old geezer and this tech stuff flys over > my balding head.Tell me this...if I cant the fins more outboard what will > it do?If cant em inboard what will it do?Also if I change the toe in what > will it do?Make it simple...kinda like talking to a child so I can > understand.Thanks....R.B. The more outboard more turn with less effort. \__/ The more inboard the more drive better arc. |__| More toe ( / \ )more "slow" no down the line drive but it will turn on a dime. Ok you balding old resin sniffing geezer.. I hope that makes it easy to understand... Rob
>>> Ok i hope i'm reading right. 4 degrees will drive more but tend to slide > more then the fin at 16. more cant will hold thru a harder turn. Say off > the top 16 will hold in better then 4.. 4 will get you around a section > better in a longer arc and carry more speed. Then again you never said how > much toe??? that would make a big difference.>>> on my boards i tend to go with less cant and less toe but we ride very > short flat boards in bigger waves then most in the northwest..>>> Rob Seems logical to me... though I would guess the most noticable differance would be more lift and more drag in the 16. And turns... better? ... maybe not, just a helluva lot more squirly... could see it slippin out on a steep wave if your trailer wasnt big enough
>>> Seems logical to me... though I would guess the most noticable differance > would be more lift and more drag in the 16. And turns... better? ... maybe > not, just a helluva lot more squirly... could see it slippin out on a > steep wave if your trailer wasnt big enough -- Anytime that outside fin, or it`s tip, moves closer to the rail`s edge, the overall hold will be better.
>>> -->>> You`re right... more cant + more speed = more lift. In fact, after a > certain velocity, the tail will start to rise and handling becomes a > serious problem. Combine cant with edge fins which are only foiled on the > outside/flat on the inside, plus toe-in and you have a configuration > that`ll always be trying to crank around and back up the face.>>> The built-in dilemma with thruster fin set-ups is the fact that at any > given time, two of the fins are in directional opposition to the (inside > edge) engaged fin. Lots of drag means lots of control in this case, but > also a significant loss of top end... one of the primary reasons these > designs must continually be pumped rail to rail in order to maintain and > develop speed.>>> Small, active "paddle fins" (twist/flex concentrated in the > narrow base) really help in resolving the common problem of three, stiff > base thruster fins all working against each other. check out Jim Banks fin system. works to alleviate this problem of three fins going in three different directions. Very smooth, fast and incredible in the barrel. www.speeedfins.com yes 3 e is correct. very slick system with no-through deck drilling or screwing that will eventually lead to water absorption that plagues the sytems that use this technique.
>>> The more outboard more turn with less effort. \__/ The more inboard the > more drive better arc. |__| More toe ( / \ )more "slow" no down > the line drive but it will turn on a dime.>>> Ok you balding old resin sniffing geezer.. I hope that makes it easy to > understand... Rob Finally a straight answer.Muchos crotchias Rob............R.B.
>>> check out Jim Banks fin system. works to alleviate this problem of three > fins going in three different directions. Very smooth, fast and incredible > in the barrel. www.speeedfins.com yes 3 e is correct. very slick system > with no-through deck drilling or screwing that will eventually lead to > water absorption that plagues the sytems that use this technique. Cripes I'm getting confused again when I thought that Rob had me straightened out.If I blindfolded you and changed the cant and toe in would you know the difference??????......R.B.
>>> -->>> Anytime that outside fin, or it`s tip, moves closer to the rail`s edge, > the overall hold will be better. I'm not sure I agree with that in full, use extremes... what if you put in 60 degrees cant... what about 90. You'd get plenty of lift, but it wouldn't hold worth a dam.
>>> Cripes I'm getting confused again when I thought that Rob had me > straightened out.If I blindfolded you and changed the cant and toe in > would you know the difference??????......R.B. Toed in = smaller turning radius, looser No Toe = less drag (going straight), goes straight faster More cant = more lift on tail, less resistance to turning, more drag (on fins) Less cant = less drag (on fins), less lift (more drag on tail)
>>> I'm not sure I agree with that in full, use extremes... what if you put in > 60 degrees cant... what about 90. You'd get plenty of lift, but it > wouldn't hold worth a dam. -- Rook, you`re right. Taken to extremes... at 45 degrees cant the potential for lift begins to overcome any gains in hold... very noticeable at higher speeds. Beyond 45 degrees, such a fin definitely "won`t hold worth a damn", but will provide lots of (unwanted) lift.
>>> Toed in = smaller turning radius, looser No Toe = less drag (going > straight), goes straight faster>>> More cant = more lift on tail, less resistance to turning, more drag (on > fins) Less cant = less drag (on fins), less lift (more drag on tail) Let's put it this way to much of anything is bad... To much toe is slow.. to much cant you would screw with control of the tail...
>>> If I blindfolded you and changed the cant and toe in > would you know the difference??????......R.B. Yes, big time!
>>> Yes, big time! .........I can too!Herb
>>> Yes, big time! I just "cant" figure this stuff out.After 40 plus years I'm still trying to figure out why fins look like the dorsal on a dolphin.I bet the grand industry total spent on fin research adds up maybe 100 bucks.But seriously guys the input did help.thanks.....R.B.
Tom, Does your system allow for adjustment in Cant and Toe-in (Camber?) or is it a fore and aft movement that can be adjusted? Do you have any idea how to set up an adjustable Cant fin system? I've been playing with a fin testing tank and having the ability to adjust Cant and Toe-in while working with a particular foil would benefit the number of results per day documented. For Rich, I have been playing with a variation of Cheyne's Star fin. Picture splitting the fin down the 'Y' axis; reducing the size of the fin to your standard Thruster size and setting up these rail fins per the standard industry method. It is different -- I am not certain that it is better. The foil of the split Y impacts results. It is in it's infancy as I do not have the luxury to work on it on a regular basis. I've been working everyday since Thanksgiving(Santa wears Brown) and have missed loggin' in to Sways, hitting the water and working with the fins. I have two boards sittin' I have needed to glass for over 4 weeks! I finally have the time to hit the water this Sunday. I was given a 1978 Natural Progression Single Fin Pintail to repair, so I will 'test' it tommorrow. Blackies might be the ticket. You gonna be there Steve? This is great thread. Keep it up guys. Magoo
>>> Tom, Does your system allow for adjustment in Cant and Toe-in (Camber?) or > is it a fore and aft movement that can be adjusted? Do you have any idea > how to set up an adjustable Cant fin system? I've been playing with a fin > testing tank and having the ability to adjust Cant and Toe-in while > working with a particular foil would benefit the number of results per day > documented.>>> For Rich,>>> I have been playing with a variation of Cheyne's Star fin. Picture > splitting the fin down the 'Y' axis; reducing the size of the fin to your > standard Thruster size and setting up these rail fins per the standard > industry method.>>> It is different -- I am not certain that it is better. The foil of the > split Y impacts results. It is in it's infancy as I do not have the luxury > to work on it on a regular basis.>>> I've been working everyday since Thanksgiving(Santa wears Brown) and have > missed loggin' in to Sways, hitting the water and working with the fins. I > have two boards sittin' I have needed to glass for over 4 weeks! I finally > have the time to hit the water this Sunday.>>> I was given a 1978 Natural Progression Single Fin Pintail to repair, so I > will 'test' it tommorrow. Blackies might be the ticket. You gonna be there > Steve?>>> This is great thread. Keep it up guys.>>> Magoo Magoo, Red X is adjustable fore and aft only after installation is complete. But, due to the sixe of the box and installation process, it is very setable in cant and camber variation regardless of the bottom contour. Variable camber systems todate require a vary flat surface due to the configuration of the mounting systems. I've only seen one variable cant system. But, it had a seperate lower fin foil segment that could be interchanged to vary the cant. But, you loose rigidity. I supose you could say that by varying the rigidity of the fin itself would be a method for varying the cant under load.
>>> Magoo,>>> Red X is adjustable fore and aft only after installation is complete. But, > due to the sixe of the box and installation process, it is very setable in > cant and camber variation regardless of the bottom contour. Variable > camber systems todate require a vary flat surface due to the configuration > of the mounting systems. I've only seen one variable cant system. But, it > had a seperate lower fin foil segment that could be interchanged to vary > the cant. But, you loose rigidity. I supose you could say that by varying > the rigidity of the fin itself would be a method for varying the cant > under load. I was wondering if you could mold fins with different cant in them.Future fins have this built in but only in one angle(I think)........R.B.
Regarding the "Cant" issue and whether we have resolved its affect on performance, I'm still hedging on whether the issue has been resolved in the thread above, but it does seem to me that as rail fins are laid over toward the rail you do facilitate a more flowing change from rail to rail. Certainly negative cant can't do anything for board performance. No cant probably produces the most holding power but doesn’t allow the board to flow as well. I wonder how much cant Laird has on the rail fins of the tow-in boards we see him going in excess of 45 knots on. Tom, I think that your system will allow the builder to set the fin box with a cant appropriate to a board’s bottom configuration because the mounting system penetrates the entire board, though I may be wrong. With the Future system the fin box is mounted flush with the bottom of the board and one can build cant into a rail fin set as one chooses. The same thing can be done with the Red X system of course, though it's more difficult to do because of the shape of the fin insert and the mounting mechanism is more complex. Magoo, I wonder about the merit of cutting the original starfin down because the foil of the fin, to me at least, is its ultimate common denominator. A poorly foiled fin is junk as far as I'm concerned, though we less and less of them in this day of the mold. I'm working on a modified starfin myself but am starting from scratch with construction. The template is very different from the original though the wing angles have to be the same as the original for the fin to be functional IMHO. I'll be making a center and trying it by itself as well as putting small rail bites with it as the profile is smaller that the original. I'll also be making a set of rail starfins and have some other ideas for rail fin patterns in the works. The ideas continue to come. As with you there isn't enough time for me to do as much experimenting as I would like to. Gone Surfin', Rich
>>> Regarding the "Cant" issue and whether we have resolved its > affect on performance, I'm still hedging on whether the issue has been > resolved in the thread above, but it does seem to me that as rail fins are > laid over toward the rail you do facilitate a more flowing change from > rail to rail. Certainly negative cant can't do anything for board > performance. No cant probably produces the most holding power but doesn’t > allow the board to flow as well. I wonder how much cant Laird has on the > rail fins of the tow-in boards we see him going in excess of 45 knots on. > Tom, I think that your system will allow the builder to set the fin box > with a cant appropriate to a board’s bottom configuration because the > mounting system penetrates the entire board, though I may be wrong. With > the Future system the fin box is mounted flush with the bottom of the > board and one can build cant into a rail fin set as one chooses. The same > thing can be done with the Red X system of course, though it's more > difficult to do because of the shape of the fin insert and the mounting > mechanism is more complex. Magoo, I wonder about the merit of cutting the > original starfin down because the foil of the fin, to me at least, is its > ultimate common denominator. A poorly foiled fin is junk as far as I'm > concerned, though we less and less of them in this day of the mold. I'm > working on a modified starfin myself but am starting from scratch with > construction. The template is very different from the original though the > wing angles have to be the same as the original for the fin to be > functional IMHO. I'll be making a center and trying it by itself as well > as putting small rail bites with it as the profile is smaller that the > original. I'll also be making a set of rail starfins and have some other > ideas for rail fin patterns in the works. The ideas continue to come. As > with you there isn't enough time for me to do as much experimenting as I > would like to.>>> Gone Surfin', Rich Glad to see that you guys are doing something different.Fin shapes look just like they did 30 years ago (a fishes dorsal.)I mentioned this tale a long time ago but due to my advanced age I have the right to repeat myself and babble as I see fit.Anway...we once epoxied a coke bottle on to a board and used it as a fin.It rode really nice and got a lot of laughs around the beach.I still wonder about that to this day,maybe we were on to something but gave in to peer pressure.Keep up the good work........R.B.
>>> Glad to see that you guys are doing something different.Fin shapes look > just like they did 30 years ago (a fishes dorsal.)I mentioned this tale a > long time ago but due to my advanced age I have the right to repeat myself > and babble as I see fit.Anway...we once epoxied a coke bottle on to a > board and used it as a fin.It rode really nice and got a lot of laughs > around the beach.I still wonder about that to this day,maybe we were on to > something but gave in to peer pressure.Keep up the good work........R.B. Red X starts out with 4 degrees of cant built into the fin. Yes, it is possible to build fins with different preset cant. But, it would be VERY expensive. Typically, most shapers we deal with want between 5 & 7 degrees of cant. We set up our cant and our installation tools so that with most types of bottom contour is not difficult to get the same cant over and over. I'm not saying that experimenting with cant isn't a good thing. But, to the average surfer you get a much bigger change in the way the board rides by fore & aft movement than by changing the cant.
>>> Glad to see that you guys are doing something different.Fin shapes look > just like they did 30 years ago (a fishes dorsal.)I mentioned this tale a > long time ago but due to my advanced age I have the right to repeat myself > and babble as I see fit.Anway...we once epoxied a coke bottle on to a > board and used it as a fin.It rode really nice and got a lot of laughs > around the beach.I still wonder about that to this day,maybe we were on to > something but gave in to peer pressure.Keep up the good work........R.B. One of the best displays of surfing inventiveness and intution I've ever witness came from Dale Dobson. He was surfing a 6'0" round pin during the summer of '71...during his 360 obessesed contest days. It was a 6 foot high tide at the Crystal Pier in Pacific Beach. 2-4 foot mix of windawell and south swell. Total garbage, breaking about 30 yeards off the beach. A million people on the pier and on the sand. No one but Dale in the water. He comes into the beach and pulls his fin out, and starts stuffing bits of driftwood into the fin box. He would go out, ride a wave, then come in and find another piece of wood and stuff that into the box. This went on all evening. Each "fin" was completely different, and he could adapt to each one after a turn or two. Amazing.
>>> One of the best displays of surfing inventiveness and intution I've ever > witness came from Dale Dobson. He was surfing a 6'0" round pin during > the summer of '71...during his 360 obessesed contest days. It was a 6 foot > high tide at the Crystal Pier in Pacific Beach. 2-4 foot mix of windawell > and south swell. Total garbage, breaking about 30 yeards off the beach. A > million people on the pier and on the sand. No one but Dale in the water.>>> He comes into the beach and pulls his fin out, and starts stuffing bits of > driftwood into the fin box. He would go out, ride a wave, then come in and > find another piece of wood and stuff that into the box. This went on all > evening. Each "fin" was completely different, and he could adapt > to each one after a turn or two. Amazing. Now there`s an untapped niche market with no overhead! "Drift"wood fins.
Magoo, I wonder about the merit of cutting the > original starfin down because the foil of the fin, to me at least, is its > ultimate common denominator. A poorly foiled fin is junk as far as I'm > concerned, though we less and less of them in this day of the mold. I'm > working on a modified starfin myself but am starting from scratch with > construction. The template is very different from the original though the > wing angles have to be the same as the original for the fin to be > functional IMHO. I'll be making a center and trying it by itself as well > as putting small rail bites with it as the profile is smaller that the > original. I'll also be making a set of rail starfins and have some other > ideas for rail fin patterns in the works. The ideas continue to come. As > with you there isn't enough time for me to do as much experimenting as I > would like to.>>> Gone Surfin', Rich Rich, I strongly agree with your comments on foil. I have also made a few 'mini-stars' for the thruster template. Current questions include: How much of an impact will Cant have on a mini-star rail fin? Does the reduced size of the star fin minimize the impact of the design? Would a regular Thruster set up be facilitated by a set of "Star Canards"??? Should the "Star Canards" be set in perpindicular to the bottom or with 3-5 degrees of cant? Need to go Surfin'! Magoo PS Took out the NP Pintail at South Side HB Pier on Sunday. What a blast that board was to ride. Rails took a few rides to get used to but once I wired it, the bottom turns were ON! Looking to find an Aipa Sting model to copy for myself -- any suggestions on finding a template? Magoo
>>> Magoo, I wonder about the merit of cutting the>>> Rich,>>> I strongly agree with your comments on foil. I have also made a few > 'mini-stars' for the thruster template. Current questions include: How > much of an impact will Cant have on a mini-star rail fin? Does the reduced > size of the star fin minimize the impact of the design? Would a regular > Thruster set up be facilitated by a set of "Star Canards"??? > Should the "Star Canards" be set in perpindicular to the bottom > or with 3-5 degrees of cant?>>> Need to go Surfin'!>>> Magoo>>> PS>>> Took out the NP Pintail at South Side HB Pier on Sunday. What a blast that > board was to ride. Rails took a few rides to get used to but once I wired > it, the bottom turns were ON! Looking to find an Aipa Sting model to copy > for myself -- any suggestions on finding a template?>>> Magoo Thoughts and questions: Starfins as rail fins? Is that right? glad to exchange emails with photo attachments if you're interested. mine is eval(unescape('%64%6f%63%75%6d%65%6e%74%2e%77%72%69%74%65%28%27%3c%61%20%68%72%65%66%3d%22%6d%61%69%6c%74%6f%3a%77%69%6e%64%77%61%74%65%72%6f%6e%73%74%6f%6e%65%40%68%6f%74%6d%61%69%6c%2e%63%6f%6d%22%3e%77%69%6e%64%77%61%74%65%72%6f%6e%73%74%6f%6e%65%40%68%6f%74%6d%61%69%6c%2e%63%6f%6d%3c%2f%61%3e%27%29%3b')) I would think that a very mild cant would be the ticket. I'd set them at about 2 or 3 degrees myself to start. How big are the ones you made? Canards ahead of rails I would think should be the same cant as the fins they serves. It certainly would look right that way anyway. I have 7'0" winged swallow that you might like to look at. It's a Freeline, shaped by John Mel in '75. The wings aren't as far up as Aipa board but you make like it. who knows. There's a story to go with it as well. What's an NP pintail? I'll look around for a Aipa template. Merry Christmas, Rich
...........Magoo,I have a ........geezzzz.......6"-7" Aipa Stinger template(swallowtail),I could transfere onto paper for you if you'd like.I took it off of one of Guy Ts personnal boards,back in 79'ish? ............Anyway,I was thumbing thru my templates a few days ago in my attic,and noticed that particular,one...funny? .............If you want a copy ,it's the real deal,or Rich's offer,I'm sure is good. .........Rich,I sent you the wrong tabbed Superchargers,I sent you the 3rd gen.tipped forwards,rather than the twinnies(I noticed this after taking inventory,and ended up with a extra set of twinnies)Keep the set of gen 3s,and I'll send out the twinnies Thursday.Herb ......Have a Merry Christmas,guys................
>>> ...........Magoo,I have a ........geezzzz.......6"-7" Aipa > Stinger template(swallowtail),I could transfere onto paper for you if > you'd like.I took it off of one of Guy Ts personnal boards,back in 79'ish?>>> ............Anyway,I was thumbing thru my templates a few days ago in my > attic,and noticed that particular,one...funny?>>> .............If you want a copy ,it's the real deal,or Rich's offer,I'm > sure is good.>>> .........Rich,I sent you the wrong tabbed Superchargers,I sent you the 3rd > gen.tipped forwards,rather than the twinnies(I noticed this after taking > inventory,and ended up with a extra set of twinnies)Keep the set of gen > 3s,and I'll send out the twinnies Thursday.Herb>>> ......Have a Merry Christmas,guys................ Herb, Oh yeah, I'm down for that! I think Rich lives up North so that would mean scheduling a trip. -- I am having a hard enough time getting the wife to buy into the Panama trip that the 21st St Boyz are planning in April... Do you have the rocker figures for the Aipa? Thanks Bro. Merry Christmas to you the wife and the girls! Magoo
>>> Thoughts and questions:>>> Starfins as rail fins? Is that right?>>> glad to exchange emails with photo attachments if you're interested. mine > is eval(unescape('%64%6f%63%75%6d%65%6e%74%2e%77%72%69%74%65%28%27%3c%61%20%68%72%65%66%3d%22%6d%61%69%6c%74%6f%3a%77%69%6e%64%77%61%74%65%72%6f%6e%73%74%6f%6e%65%40%68%6f%74%6d%61%69%6c%2e%63%6f%6d%22%3e%77%69%6e%64%77%61%74%65%72%6f%6e%73%74%6f%6e%65%40%68%6f%74%6d%61%69%6c%2e%63%6f%6d%3c%2f%61%3e%27%29%3b'))>>> I would think that a very mild cant would be the ticket. I'd set them at > about 2 or 3 degrees myself to start. How big are the ones you made?>>> Canards ahead of rails I would think should be the same cant as the fins > they serves. It certainly would look right that way anyway.>>> I have 7'0" winged swallow that you might like to look at. It's a > Freeline, shaped by John Mel in '75. The wings aren't as far up as Aipa > board but you make like it. who knows. There's a story to go with it as > well.>>> What's an NP pintail? I'll look around for a Aipa template.>>> Merry Christmas, Rich Rich, I was being lazy: NP = Natural Progressions; Yellow bottomed single fin Pintail number 75-945, shaped by R. Dirk(?) I would like to copy that Freeline as well as hear the story. I am going to have to schedule a trip up North to check it out. As for the pics, I would like to have your input but I need to stumble into the new millenium and get a digital cam to pull that off. The Star rail fins are 5.5 inches tall. I am not happy with the outcome right now. The fit and foil need to be improved. I will have more available time fairly soon to work on the project. It is almost 100% hand work so it is slow going. The reason behind making the mini Star rail fins was to see if the three panel surface would allow for a thinner (from a base perspective), well foiled fin that would improve the response on fully committed rail gouging turn.... That is not as eloquent as I would like it, but then again I'm not Dale... Merry Christmas to you Rich, Keep Surfin' Magoo
>>> Herb,>>> Oh yeah, I'm down for that! I think Rich lives up North so that would mean > scheduling a trip.>>> -- I am having a hard enough time getting the wife to buy into the Panama > trip that the 21st St Boyz are planning in April...>>> Do you have the rocker figures for the Aipa?>>> Thanks Bro.>>> Merry Christmas to you the wife and the girls!>>> Magoo ........Yes,I built alot of them,thanks to Ben Aipa helping me out when I owned my shop.I can mail it in a tube,or meet you at the beach......I don't know how southside was,but I missed you on Sunday. Blackie's, was firing in the late morning.Herb
>>> Magoo , ........The shaper of your N.P. is Robbie Dick,too bad The Riddler doesn't post here anymore,someone gave him and me some crap talk,and I haven't heard from him since.Jay Riddle is a great surfer,and could probably tell you alot about Robbie.Herb