Professor Barnfield's take on reverse vee

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foamdust's picture
Joined: 03/18/2004

Bill,

It's always fun to read your replies and posts. I think you were talking about my friend Brian who drowned at Puaena Pt. in the early 90's. It was the day Derek Ho won the Pipe Masters and World Championship. I remember surfing Puaena that morning when the swell was building and there were some bombs coming in outside the point. Brian drowned later that day when the swell had filled in. He was such a fun guy to be around. We met when he was a helper at the company I work for. Once we both found out each other surfed that was it. He also mentioned that he had shaped a few boards too, and much of the day was spent talking about boards, shapers and waves. We got quite close in a short time. He got a permanent position in the company and was doing quite well when his life was cut short. Thanks for mentioning him as sometimes we forget about those who have passed on.

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"Its not rocket science..."

Billbarnfield's picture
Joined: 07/09/2005

Quote:


Bill,

It's always fun to read your replies and posts. I think you were talking about my friend Brian who drowned at Puaena Pt. in the early 90's. It was the day Derek Ho won the Pipe Masters and World Championship. I remember surfing Puaena that morning when the swell was building and there were some bombs coming in outside the point. Brian drowned later that day when the swell had filled in. He was such a fun guy to be around. We met when he was a helper at the company I work for. Once we both found out each other surfed that was it. He also mentioned that he had shaped a few boards too, and much of the day was spent talking about boards, shapers and waves. We got quite close in a short time. He got a permanent position in the company and was doing quite well when his life was cut short. Thanks for mentioning him as sometimes we forget about those who have passed on.

[=Blue]Aloha Foamdust

That sounds like the same person. He was a wonderful guy. I miss him.
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meecrafty's picture
Joined: 03/20/2004

Interesting thread.

One thing not being discussed is the shaping of vees...I've done a few and I find vees to be the most challenging design feature to shape. Particularly keeping the rail rocker true...not trivial (concaves are much easier imo). I think the trick is to order blanks with lower or special rockers...like the "A" series.

Marketing!!! I sense a general theme in Bill's posts.
Isnt it just something these days!
Tweak the same active ingredient in laundtry soap by 0.5% and put a big bold flashy "NEW AND IMPROVED" artwork on the box, make sure its placed at eye level, and viola! A nice spike in sales.
Then let things simmer down for a couple of months, wait and repeat.

One person, or few motivated people, takes just one nickle from every consumer and soon enough theyre rollin in it.

MARKETING.....never fails to amaze me.

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balsa's picture
Joined: 06/11/2004

Quote:

Tweak the same active ingredient in laundtry soap by 0.5% and put a big bold flashy "NEW AND IMPROVED" artwork on the box, make sure its placed at eye level, and viola!


Meecrafty, I'm sure it was just a type mistake, but it's "voila", not "viola"... "viola" actually means "raped"...
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maurice's picture
Joined: 11/12/2007

Hi Bill
Maurice cole here,I have just read your BS version of the reverse vee,I dont even know where to start,as everything you say is a figment of your ego/imagination!Lets put up the history of the reverse back in the swaylocks forum,and let me respond to your fanciful version of History,so here's the challenge.............I can back up my story with fact & logic,yours is BB's F I G J A M or F..K I'm Great Just Ask Me..to denigrate a fellow shaper/designer for your own gain says it all! Don't worry next time i am in Hawaii I will make sure I come by your shop for an apology...I.E.if you are prepared to put your version of history up against mine,so either put up OR,shut up & apologise!
THanx
M

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resinhead's picture
Joined: 03/18/2004

Hey this is great, is this really Maurice or a poser aka Our NZ friend RS.

Maurice, why don't you give us some kind of specific information about BB. Something like his girlfriends name at the time you were there?, What kind of dog he had? or maybe something about the shop?, or maybe the address of the shop, or maybe the type & color of his vehicle?

We know BB is real, and a decent stand up guy too. So, it's kind of hard to beleive your ranting from who doesn't fillout his profile?

If you are the real deal, then if true let the fur fly!!

And if it's the real Maurice Cole, welcome to Swaylocks!

-Jay

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maurice's picture
Joined: 11/12/2007

HI Jay
yes it is the real MC,and pretty bummed at my shaping designing integrity being questioned ,in the attempt to try and push themselves as some kind of overlooked design guru!the truth is that in 1988 I Bought a 7'10 and 8'6" off bill as I was trying to learnn to shape guns,which in the following 3 years I was helped by Eric Arakawa & Pat Rawson,and now have enduring friendships with the Arakawas & Rawsons,in the winter of 91/92 I was able to return the favour by shaping in Hawaii and helping tune their shortboards to the new concept,and start to use the same formula into hawain guns,and history shows that Tom Curren won the Haleiwa comp on the 7'2" stickerless yellow railed reverse vee,completely flat between the fins, and in the spirit that was shown to me by Pat & Eric,they were able to look take measurements etc what an exciting/creative/passionate/innovative & respectful surf/shape era this was.So bring it on Bill,I have had a lot of feedback from yesterdays letter,a lot from people who were there & lived that time period,wait untill I get to the MC/ Tom Curren design era,which will also debunk a lot of myth surrounding Tom & Al Merrick!!!
Any how as I am new to the forum,I intend to start contributing Ideas and history..CLARIFICATIONS??As for the last few years I have been shaping all of Ross Clarke-Jones tow bds with amazing results by using upto 1" concave,new original tail designs,all in Carbon,and am now using these hydronamic results into normal bds,which I have designed & tested for the last 2 years to come up with a new feel and direction for S/bds-to go faster than ever before and unable to spin em out......coming soon,phew I do ramble on ,but this seems like the place to do it thanx M

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GregTate's picture
Joined: 03/18/2004

I can't see that anything you have said factually contradicts Mr Barnfield. I also don't care. I'll bet no more than a handful of people here do. All I know is Mr. Barnfield has helped a lot of people here by offering shaping info freely, and with a well expressed, mild mannered, low ego approach.

On the face of it, you have angrily arrived at Sways promising to set some history straight. Again, I don't care. But I am glad you have tuned in and really look forward to hearing your advice and ideas. You have probably forgotten more than I will know about shaping.

Welcome to Sways. I hope I can learn to be a better shaper from you when you turn to that topic.

I don't mean this to be harsh, just level headed.

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Personally I'm always ready to learn, although I do not always like being taught. - Winston Churchill

Maraboutslim's picture
Joined: 05/08/2004

I wish more well known shapers participated in this forum. If they did, I think the overall story of shaping history we get here would be quite a bit different than what we hear from the few known shapers that do post here. I'm looking forward to hearing Maurice's version to add to the story.

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maurice's picture
Joined: 11/12/2007

Hi greg
I appreciate your view,but the reason I have reacted this way is BB's version is totally wrong and he has accused me with plagerism of shapes !fact :in 1998 BB made me a 7'10" and an 8'6" for sunset,they were good bds,3 years later the reverse vee was born out of a set of circumstances that was exstensively covered by dereck Hind & nick carroll,the actuall design has been misrepresented,as some kind of convex vee,in actual fact vee was taken out between the fins and put under the front foot the affect was to straighten the centre rocker and put the curve on the rail line ! the old theory was that by having a big vee between the fins made the bd looser,it did the opposite-I use 1"concaves now which still uses the same principle --curve on rails ,low curve centre stringer for speed,so in a straight line bd generates speed and when you go to turn ,you tip the bd over onto the curve in the rail.My initial reaction was an emotional one at basically being called a hoax,based on??????I wonder how you would react if it was you being bad mouthed??
thanx
M

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privateer's picture
Joined: 04/09/2005

surfboards are so subjective just like history,its nice to get nostalgic now and then but that doesn't make anything gospel.shapers are like flavor of the month and the computer has made many for better or worse?once saw a chris brock skip frye or was it cundith? shape when the egos were aside and they actually shaped a board together.then there was Dennis B a awesome shaper that when it came time for the pay friends forgot about the deals. those that had those magical boards remember yet forgotten.so what does it all mean be thankful that you are still pursuing your craft and post some of your works and keep your minds open to each other ideas and pass it on as the future is very uncertain and check out Todd Proctor the young man has the skills and the right mind for it.

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Billbarnfield's picture
Joined: 07/09/2005

Quote:


SNIP

then there was Dennis B a awesome shaper that when it came time for the pay friends forgot about the deals. those that had those magical boards remember yet forgotten.

Aloha privateer

Would that be Dennis Benadum that you are referring to? A great shaper!
SNIP
check out Todd Proctor the young man has the skills and the right mind for it.

Well said, Todd seems to be on a good roll


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cbalzac's picture
Joined: 03/10/2006

Biily,

Funny that Todd Procter's name comes up in this thread as I am in his shop a lot (he uses a lot EPS) and I noticed that the bottoms on his guns looked really familiar. The kid really does nice work and is a very progressive thinker. Also keeps his work spaces super clean and organised. Kind of reminds me of someone else.
SS

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Billbarnfield's picture
Joined: 07/09/2005

Quote:


Biily,

Funny that Todd Procter's name comes up in this thread as I am in his shop a lot (he uses a lot EPS) and I noticed that the bottoms on his guns looked really familiar. The kid really does nice work and is a very progressive thinker. Also keeps his work spaces super clean and organised. Kind of reminds me of someone else.
SS

Aloha Steve hows things?!?

I am sure I tortured far too many, who have worked for me, with my obsessions..... like clean, organized works spaces! [:)] I am stoked to see guys like Proctor, who seems to be a class act, do well. Far too often in this business, the low life's seem to get get all the attention.

I just got back from a short visit to Oregon. Took a bit, but I tracked down Art Spence and visited with him for a while. He is shaping and living in his small shop in Seaside. Also hiked out to about 4th Point. Man! The land slides out there really changed things. And judging by the surf, it was pretty good, I don't think the point breaks as good as it used to be. Art concurred. Seems the bottom has filled in a bit and allows the waves to section when rarely used to.

Howz this for a "small world" moment. Wendy's brother Greg has a very successful marine business out in Scapoose called Channel Marine Services. For those who don't know..... this is well outside of Portland along the Multnomah Channel. Not many surfers around there! So, Greg was installing an alternator on a boat while I was watching.... making sure he did it right! Ha! While I am talking to Mike the the owner of the boat and the subject of Hawaii came up........ He said he goes to Hawaii once in awhile. Why I say. He says, because his wife is Dane Kealoha's, exwife! Amazing... small world sometimes.

Catch you around


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lennox76's picture
Joined: 04/21/2007

Whatever happened to reverse vee?
I must admit in a pique of Curren envy I rang the MC factory in Sydney and ordered a 7'3" pintail reverse vee.
More than likely a machine shape that was finished by a ghost shaper but i have to say the damm thing went unreal.
Took it to Hawaii where it felt a little light and thin for there but for small/medium Backyards, east coast waves it went bloody good.
So from my limited POV the design went well.
What happened to them?

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gregloehr's picture
Joined: 03/22/2004

What happened to reverse vee? Concaves!

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blakestah's picture
Joined: 03/18/2004

Quote:

in actual fact vee was taken out between the fins and put under the front foot the affect was to straighten the centre rocker and put the curve on the rail line ! the old theory was that by having a big vee between the fins made the bd looser,it did the opposite-I use 1"concaves now which still uses the same principle --curve on rails ,low curve centre stringer for speed,so in a straight line bd generates speed and when you go to turn ,you tip the bd over onto the curve in the rail.

For this to work, doesn't the concave depth need to be set relative to the rocker curvature ie: deepest through the tail kick, and flat at the nose and tail?

Also, although I haven't seen boards like this, I am sure the answer is known...what if the concaves are only cut over 1 foot at the rear rocker transition, and 1 foot at the front (and flat between the feet, and nose/tail). The net effect is flattening the stringer-line rocker from nose to tail. Or do you have to include concave from front rocker transition to rear to achieve the effect?

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oneula's picture
Joined: 06/10/2004

wouldn't it be similar to what's typically called a "staged" or three panel rocker.
I think Mctavish coins the term to describe his longboard bottom like his fireball design where there's distinct seams in the bottom curve. one curve on the nose, flat mid section and another curve in the tail.

It was the complete challenge to the continous curve school which was more aesthetically pleasing but perhaps not as functional?

Chandler has something for longboards he calls a four panel bottom which changes into four distinct patterns but I think it's more bottom contour than rocker.

My hacker understanding of bottoms contours is that aside from release it's primary motivation it to alter the botttom rocker in relation to the rail rocker what ever that means regarding performance. Kind of like the two Shane's banana boards with the super concaves that sparked Webber's rise to media fame like the reverse vee did for Maurice. I kind of like Greg's foil dissertation on the whole subject as there's seems to be only a few that look at the concept that way instead of in pieces..

In the end once the paddle problem can be resolved like in towing the only that matter as far as bottom/rocker design is what's going on with the foam directly under your feet than what's happening 2 feet in front or behind of them.

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"ain't no big ting brudda"

blakestah's picture
Joined: 03/18/2004

Quote:

wouldn't it be similar to what's typically called a "staged" or three panel rocker.
I think Mctavish coins the term to describe his longboard bottom like his fireball design where there's distinct seams in the bottom curve. one curve on the nose, flat mid section and another curve in the tail.

It was the complete challenge to the continous curve school which was more aesthetically pleasing but perhaps not as functional?
...

I plugged the rocker numbers for every board in _Essential Surfing_ (early 80s boards) into math programs, and calculated rocker curvature as a function of position on the board. There were no continuous curves. Every board had a prominent transition point for the rear rocker ie: roughly 18 inches up from the tail (close to where a rear foot might fall while riding), the curve breaks. The curvature near the tail is not so different from the curvature between the feet, but the angle is. The point of maximal curvature on the rear half was at the transition point.

The point I was making about concaves is that assuming you have a rear rocker with such a transition, and your goal in making the concave is to decrease the stringer rocker relative to the rail rocker, you need to cut the concave deepest at the rocker transition. And use no concave at the very tail. If you wanted increasingly flat stringer rockers, you would need to keep the concave zero at the ends, and make the rocker deeper in the middle (opposite the main curve), while continuing to take a little more concave at the transitions.

Of course concaves are also used off the tail in many designs, but a concave that deepens into the end of the tail will increase the stringer rocker, not decrease it.

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gregloehr's picture
Joined: 03/22/2004

Blakestah,
Good post. The original concave in shortboards done by Brewer in the early 70's was deepest at the tail. Later we did them, still in single fins, which were blended concaves which were done kind of like but opposite to the blended vee with the apex just in front of the fin blending to flat off the tail. As you noted, this removed the tail break from the center line and added drive and speed over the flatter reverse vee, which it replaced. We actually stated doing these in the late 70's long before the reverse vee even showed up. The breakthrough in three fin concaves actually came when Bill Hartley made one of his single fins into a three. This happened in the mid 80's but we couldn't sell them until we went through the reverse vee stage and then Greg Webber got a look at one of Bills boards at Angourie and he was able to popularize the whole thing.

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sirwanksalot's picture
Joined: 01/02/2005

What happened to Bill?

This is defiantly one of the best threads on Swaylocks! Thanks for the info!

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gregloehr's picture
Joined: 03/22/2004

Still surfin. Spends a lot of time now in Indo.

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lokbox's picture
Joined: 04/10/2004

The "H" was..and still is THE MAN!

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allangibbons's picture
Joined: 06/03/2004

Taking concave in the tail to an extreme: Hard to see in these pics, but the concave increases out the back, loading up the flex panels. I got a lot of cool feedback from these models.


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Billbarnfield's picture
Joined: 07/09/2005

Aloha Maurice

Welcome to Swaylocks. Sounds like you have a lot to say! And, as you noted, this is probably as good as place as any to say it.

I am sorry that I seem to have ruffled your feathers. Hopefully you can set the record straight and clear things up.

For the record. I have no direct knowledge of how you came up with the Reverse Vee thing. I thought I made that pretty clear in my previous posts. Sadly after that winter of you hanging around my shop here in Haleiwa, I never saw you again. Friends usually don't do that! So while I thought we had become friends, it soon appeared that I was just a rung on the ladder you were climbing to fame. Congratulations on that by the way. You did real good. Too bad I never had a chance to tell you in person!

I also never saw any Reverse Vee boards here in Hawaii until my friend brought one by. My presumption of what the design was or is, was based on that encounter. That board, as far as I know, was one of your "Official" models produced under license here in Hawaii. There was nothing revolutionary about it and as I noted previously it was virtually identical to the bottoms that I had commonly made for years. This was testified to by many others in my shop who could recognize such things. Maybe that board was an anomaly and not representative of your design. If that is the case I apologize for misreading what it was. I was going on it's Official status. For the record, it wasn't "completely flat between the fins" as you noted TC's was. So maybe the Reverse Vee was an evolving design. Sort of a moving target, so to speak.

I am glad you had/have good relations with Eric and Pat and that you helped them become better shapers by showing them the secrets of what you were up to with your very special designs. I am sure they are very appreciative of your help and boost to their careers.

As to being an "overlooked design guru". Well.... I am still doing what I did before the scene discovered me, and fame and ensuing guys like you came nosing around looking for what ever it was you wanted, and I am still doing what I did after the fame passed and guys like you didn't come nosing around anymore but rather chummed up with the new media celebrities. I was cool with my position before fame, during fame and after fame. And life is even better now then ever! The surf scene has a way of stereotyping people as their public persona evolves, but it may not be accurate at all. I poured out my heart, my home, my techniques, my shop, my ideas and virtually everything I had to share to my surfboard building mates. I held nothing back. Plus I probably trained half the guys making surfboards back then! Clearly, I question whether or not that was appreciated by some. Let alone even understood or acknowledged. I am not bothered so much that the surf scene might have "overlooked" these things. But I thought, apparently naively, that you guys were my friends! And when your friends overlook you that sucks! Of course, it would be nice if Industry History was told correctly and I welcome you contribution to it. At best there will always be some contention due to the potpourri of opinions and impressions but there is a history there non the less.

I celebrate your success Maurice and always have. I am glad you finally checked in to Swaylocks for some discussion. It of course, would have been nice to see you from time to time in the flesh as friends might, but that apparently that wasn't what you were looking for in the relationship and that is fine. You weren't the first one to show up when my fame shone bright and then evaporate quickly as it dimmed. That is one of the downsides to celebrity, which was painful to discover.

I am looking forward to hearing how your latest designs impact the surf scene and your contributions to Swaylocks.

Wish you well.

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maurice's picture
Joined: 11/12/2007

Hi Bill taken me a while to reply to you as very busy plus needed to contact a few journalist friends who actually lived and breathed the EEV era,so,here goes....
when Tom curren won the world title from the Trials in1990 he predominantly rode my bds !point is he had a quiver of MAGIC bds that we both worked intensly on in France,- a 6'0" eps/epoxy(won biarritz).6'4",6'9"(santa cruz,bells),7'2",7'8",8'3"! the following year the reverse vee came about thru some preshapes in a container being supa-rockered and my attempt to make a flat bottomed bd , I put vee under the front foot and flat between the fins,it looked pretty different to the bds he was already happy with,I have a clear memory that evening of Tom calling to tell me the new bd was insane -faster and turned vertically,I thought he was kidding,as he has awicked sense of humour,I asked himto bring back all of last c'ship bds and trade them in,thinking he was kidding!He turned up next morning-with last years bds to trade back for new design BD.At this time Wayne Lynch,Pat Rawson,Gordon merchant were in my french shaping room and i asked the question"the bd has 1 1/2 "more nose rocker & 1" more tailrocker and its way faster than last years bds(I still have the 1st one)-none of us could understand why? So that year(91) I made 62 bds for pros the only guys who did not get a magic bd was Pottz and Nicky wood the rest is history-I finally worked out why these bds were a quantum leap in design-we reversed the bottom contours of the bds which still stands today---rail line has all the curve and the central rocker is much lower than the rai curve! As I had been shaping a lot of World Cup Slalom bds for numerous euro pros,I had learnt how to be objective and to graph the bds in 3D,science! so I was able to transfer the same principles into Toms guns & he won his 1st and only hawaiin comp at haleiwa on the nonstickered yellow railed 7'2".the amount of effort WE put into these couple of years and the technical results achieved,were aknowledged by most top shapers /surfers/media as a genuine design breakthru and I shared them with Rusty/Pat /Eric/wayne/Simon A etc.there are so many other great stories with Tom,and contrary to some peoples claims that Tom's French years were the lost years(perhaps a usa perspective) Toms years in France were his most creative from surfing,to designing bds,to music,creating abeautiful familly,creating Surfrider Europe and opening himself up more to the media! after Tom won the world title from the trials in 90,he was still very introverted and I was helping him a bit with media/contracts,sponsors and I could feel I was being used to get to Tom,so I refused all media interviews for 2 years as the last person I wanted to be seen that I had abig vested in Tom-so I shunned the media,until tom won haleiwa and I did a small design article in Surfer magazine with Derek Hynd when it came out the flood gates opened with media/shapers /sufers all trying to geta piece of the action .I am not some slick marketing shaper who runs round the world FIG JAMing-in fact the opposite-during this period I did not speak to Aust media for 5 years,!!
On a personal note it looks like to me you saw A bd in 92 that resembled something you shaped somewhere and you judged myself on one bd and it feels like I upset you by hanging around your shop,stealing ideas etc when in fact I came to hawaii for 4 weeks,and when I would eat at Cafe Haleiwa,I would stop by,I ordered 2 guns off you after listening to how you were the best shaper on the N shore,the bds were ok,I sold them upon my return to France and realized that the big difference between you and I was that I actually surfed/shaped the bds in all conditions-if you were to define friendship,a couple of chats one winter does not constitute the friendship you talk about,and certainly not the bagging you gave me!I still dont talk to the media ,Istill tow very big waves with RCJ,I still am passionate creative and innovative,and test all bds in all conditions,people close to OUR surf world know that I am still living on the Edge in all aspects of my life,and I just don't need people like you bill,making up stories and drawing conclusions based on........1 s/bd!
to any body else reading this,it might seem a bit straight forward,but maybe its an Aussie thing we deal with our shit face toface,we only call the police when we need to fill out an insurance form!
Thanx
M

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burnsie's picture
Joined: 06/14/2004

Not to worry Maurice, it's not too emotive just the facts from you point of view. It's Great to get an insight into that period.

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maurice's picture
Joined: 11/12/2007


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pman's picture
Joined: 03/18/2004

Greg can you put a inverted vee on your 5 fin fishes or a 5 fin rocket? Have you tried it and would you recommend it?

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greggriffin's picture
Joined: 05/09/2005

I could make my inverted vee with the 5-fin set up but would have to make the center fin taller.
Here are some of Gavins twin fin longboards i made for him at T&C.
He won many contests on these.
Its been only a full year since i have not worked for T&C and Gavin has had 4 shapers make these for him.
None of them have ever made boards like this and all of them now have a new model.
This one he had made and tried to describe the inverted vee to the shaper.
He didn't get it right but he said it worked really well.
This board was next door to my shop to be copied by the shaper there and so i took these pictures.
I doubt any of these shapers mention this design came from me.
And so it goes.

Maurice created his reverse vee fixing some over rockered pre shapes caused by heat in shipping from austailia.
Alan Byrne learned some things about fin angles back then through his hot coater just doing what he wanted.
Both were unplanned and had great results and were not stolen from some other shaper.








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kendall's picture
Joined: 12/08/2005

Quote:

I doubt any of these shapers mention this design came from me.
And so it goes.

Good artists borrow... great artists steal... I made that up.

;-)

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wouter's picture
Joined: 04/23/2004

HAHA, so cool, so true, check out all the RnB songs who are originally Stevie Wonders... listen to The Belgium artists Soulwax !

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janklow's picture
Joined: 12/31/2004

why these bds were a quantum leap in design---rail line has all the curve and the central rocker is much lower than the rail
curve!
__________________________________________________________________________

Maurice, can you explain why this is important/a quantum leap in design?

thanks

greg

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maurice's picture
Joined: 11/12/2007

Hi Greg
relative to the bds that were surfed by the best pro surfers inthe world -which to that point -all had vees brtween the fins,under front foot was a flatter rocker( for speed?) with little or no vee! The pros that I shaped bds for that year,were all calling them magic bds and when I went to Rusty's, to shape my bds there, I was lucky enough to work with him on design and the general consensus at Rusty's was bds went a lot better than traditional vee between the fin bds! Also I shaped so many bds at this time for shop owner/ managers/pros etc was a magic time for me!!!

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gregloehr's picture
Joined: 03/22/2004

I thought it was a quantum leap because it got rid of vee in the tail and led to concaves. Getting rid of tail vee (at least in small to medium surf) was like putting a super charger on the board. We were hung up on tail vee for over 20 f#&kin years! Reverse vee started that new trend and then shortly after concaves took over which added even more juice and also allowed boards to drop significantly in volume adding to performance again. The performance you see in the water today wouldn't be close to what it is without these changes. IMHO MC's design started that ball rolling.

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maurice's picture
Joined: 11/12/2007

thanx Greg,for the tech back up! I am amazed that we are even still talking about it,but I guess you had to be in that era & a surfer/shaper to understand how hard & long it took us to get those elusive magic bds! I am still amazed that in this modern era,pro surfers are not too keen to try anything new and that as a shaper/surfer finding the R& D vehicle to take design to the next level is the biggest challenge facing OUR homogonised ( derek hynds naming) world of S/BDS-for me its Tow & RCJ-Derek has been down here at Bells this year surfing finless s/bds in surf up to 8',amazing stuff some of the bds are 3'6",and even been soufing old style DUKE wooden 1/2" planks in long walled solid waves do not miss this as I actually sat in the water and watched in awe-Jack McCoy was filming,and theres a film coming ,where he invited people like tom carroll,and others to compete in a comp on an island with A frames,all bds had to be finless-an actual challenge to the ol' grey matter!

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MikeDaniel's picture
Joined: 05/03/2007

janklow and some others (including me) will be interested to see the finless stuff.

Classic story from the early nineties regarding the industry's reluctance to let go of the V between
the fins. Names left out to protect all parties.

Famous Hawaiian shaper comes to East Coast US for a ''visiting shaper'' stint. Immediately starts
knocking out 10 a day, causing paychecks that throw up flags all over. Retail personnel report back
to factory, ''he's ripping you off, he's not even putting V in the tails!''.

The boards were reverse V's.

Mike

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lokbox's picture
Joined: 04/10/2004

Finless boards? As I'm sure you would imagine I'm not really looking forward to this trend lol. Speaking of fins, Maurice, we currently offer 2 of your templates. They were Red-X fins, made to fit into the Lokbox system. We call them the LBX1 and LBX2 you can see them on our site www.lokboxfins.com under fins, then LBX series. Mr. Brian Bulkley absolutley loves the LBX2's in glass for his quads. Runs all 4 the same size/template. Cheers and thanks, everyone loves the templates...Jim

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maurice's picture
Joined: 11/12/2007

Hi Jim
I have used your system and its great,I have a tech problem now,I use over 1" of concave between fins ,in s/bds and tow bds and the only system I can use is redex,as its the only system that is narrow enough to fit into the angle of the concave off the rail,and worse still,the deeper the concave the better the bd -we might need some tech back up in future if a part of the market ebraces these designs,

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lokbox's picture
Joined: 04/10/2004

Hi Maurice, thanks for your reply. Us fin guys have an interesting time keeping up with you shapers. But that's the progression of surfing, and I wouldn't have it any other way. Custom angled fins aren't a big problem for us, so it could probably work. Without one in front of me I couldn't promise you anything. If your getting Red-X to work fin angle wise I'd tend to think it could work. Maybe I need to order a board. Always wanted one anyways. I'll dub it the GP model (guinea pig).

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maurice's picture
Joined: 11/12/2007


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peterg1's picture
Joined: 07/17/2006

Really an inch? I've never taken it that far: maybe a half to 5/8 on a tow and 3/8 + on a shortboard. The best thing I rode this year, and possible ever, was a 6-4 x 19 1/2 quad, with slight spiral V (double in single convave at mid board) transitioning to a slight rolled V before fins to a flat after fins, to single concave off the tail. Nothing more than a 1/4-" overall ...very subtle transitions, which the sander easily could ruin. I can imagine hooking and funneling water on a narrow tow board in extreme conditions, but on a shortboard? What are the dimensions and rocker like?

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maurice's picture
Joined: 11/12/2007

I ride a 6'2"x 20 1/4 x 3.......up to 10' bells ,the bd has redex( I buy all my own fins etc fromredex and am not paid by them in any way or form) finsystem with customised future G10 Vector's.set straight like a towwbd....I"concave between fins the rest of the bd has 1/2" concave.....tail @15 1/2"...pod @ 6 1/2", I move my fins heaps and in bigger surf have them completely asymetrical!

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foamdust's picture
Joined: 03/18/2004

Maurice,

I'm really stoked to see you posting here. Most of my boards have the traditional flat to vee bottoms that have been around forever, but I was pretty blown away at the amount of concave, 1/2"-1" you put in your boards. The only time I ever fooled around with concave was when there was a resurgence of the Bonzer bottom in the early 90s, when a few of the Hawaiian shapers (Rawson and Minami) were utilizing the design with a standard thruster fin set up. I guess I've strayed away at doing the in vogue single to double concave because I could never really envision the configuration in my head. My question is, do your concaves follow the rocker of the board, or do they follow a different curve (I always assumed they followed their own curve, straighter than the original rocker). I've always felt you needed vee to bank a board from rail to rail, but it seems it is really not needed. Anyway, thank for posting...hope to see you here in the future.

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"Its not rocket science..."

mooneemick's picture
Joined: 11/18/2005

Very interesting read this.
Does Mitch Rae post on Sway's?
I'm sure He would have some insightful comments on deep concaves running into flat flex tails like he was doing mid 70's. Those were fast and deadly tube tools!
Where else but here can you hear history being told by those who made it. It's like a treasure chest.
Cheers
Mooneemick

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MarkSpindler's picture
Joined: 03/21/2004

Agreed,
This thread has been my favorite read since it first posted.
Science before ego is the lesson I've learned. But heck everyone (including especially scientists) gets that order backwards sometime. I'm not a scientist, but I'm no exception either. haha

Also it is entirely possible that the tech developed in different peoples minds simultaneously across the world.
This happens all the time. Same data same conclusion.
Fact "everyone" was riding flat to vee so the data was everywhere. Hey this board goes faster when I put pressure over the flat spot...hmm what if? I'm pretty sure those who have been talking here are pretty close to the real event. So this has the ring of truth.

However, unless someone can document the exclusivity of their contribution (currently only a patent can do that) it's best to share and share alike.
That said it's still nice to see shapers come together and timeline their ideas and develop a somewhat historical biographical record.

Anyone ever heard the phrase this goes on your permanent record? Well this is it. So; Keep the shiny side up.

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maurice's picture
Joined: 11/12/2007


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TaylorO's picture
Joined: 03/18/2004

Well - I'm stoked to read my latest board isn't just my own weird "rip off" of the HIC converter, but something others find to work well too. I'm also stoked to read others like the RedX system, and like to ride with fins all over the place... Stoked to be able to control the speed the deep channel(s) provide with fin placement.

I'll go a head and beg John M. to post pictures if he has 'em - I'm not to proud to say I like the channel, and I like the MVG's! Ha! "It's no gimmic, it's science baby!"

Taylor

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TaylorO

bgreen's picture
Joined: 10/21/2007

Maurice,

Were some of the boards you referred to (e.g 3'6") being ridden stand-up or were some also ridden prone as with the alaia boards.

I have seen some stills of alaia being ridden on a very cheesy island - are these in the film you are referring to?

regards

BobQuote:


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maurice's picture
Joined: 11/12/2007

all standing up!!!there is 1x 8 wave at supa tubes-j-bay of him riding a finless 4' 6" driving off the bottom,360 in the lip,pulls into barrell and pops out!

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