what differs it from reg resin. ive never used it nor do i plan on using it soon im just curious on the subject. also has anyone used that ast resin?? seems kinda neat. a little pricey for me but neat. anyone know about this? im sure ill have plenty of answers on the epoxy but what about ast? dk
I'll say 1 thing the stuff is simply amazing for 100's of uses not only for surfboards or boats,BUT!!!! It can be real toxic to some guys,and seems to have a accumlative effect,Some guys use it for years w/o problems then BOOM it bites em in the rear, Other guys I've seen only worked w/ it a few times and had some real adverse reactions.Some guys no bother them at all! I tend to use it only when I REALLY need the strength factor it provides,And when working w/ it use all the precautions I can,Gloves,Long sleeve shirt and or a throw away painters suit,And w/o fail a respirator. I know guys who can't even smell the stuff and go into a Dr.Jeckel and Mr.Hyde reaction. I've found vinylester to be a great replacement for epoxy,Not nearly as toxic and almost as strong as epoxy,And about twice as strong if not more than polyester. I've never built a surfboard w/ vinylester but know guys who have w/ good results,You can use a regular Clark foam blank.But have used vinylester on boats w/ excellent strength and longevity. I've heard from reliable soures that most all the epoxy boards are being turned out in 3rd world countries so that kinda tells the story in itself. Could be the cost factor but I tend to think it has a lot to do w/ the epoxy being real toxic stuff,Can't say for sure,but kinda have to lean that way. Sorry you wanted to know the good aspects,Well,That there is my view,Mahalo
Looked thru a couple sites on your AST systems, Was a new product to me,Here's what I found,If the Military uses it(which they do) most times the stuff is pretty radical,Years ago had some epoxy bottom paint a guy got from the Navy supposedly fom Submarines,We used it on a couple Commercial F/V'S(Fishing Vessels),When we put it on it had this weird sweet smell,The stuff lasted for years and was bullet proof,But the headache and dizziness even w/ a top of the line respirator was too much,I made sure I never dealt w/ it again. Here's a number for the MSDS& Tech questions from a AST site:1-800-642-9641 Seems like its more a high traffic floor coating,Anti-slip coating or something like cold tar epoxy(Another Toxic like hell product,Seems like if it's good it'll also kill brain cells and eat your liver!!)Most of these type of products have a "right to know" message on the side of the can,That tells me use a your own risk!! Not really sure what you plan to use it for? ALOHA
There is quite a lot of information on epoxies on this site in the achives but I'll print some stuff here. Lundy sounds as if he isn't all that up to date on the latest stuff either. Here are some of the advantages. Epoxy is stronger so the board comes out stronger with better resin Since epoxy is stronger it takes less resin in the laminate to do the same job as polyester. And epoxy has a slightly light specific weight. This makes a lighter board even with the same blank used for the poly. In fact with epoxy on Clark foam you can use a green blank and it will come out the same weight as the same glassed poly lamination using a blue. And MUCH stronger. You can laminate ANY foam with epoxy. Not just urethane. This gives you the option of making your own blanks. Our new epoxy system as fast as MEK initiated poly so production times are quicker than in the past. Cosmetically epoxy is clearer making a whiter board. Yellowing is also slower than with poly. Epoxy can be cleaned up with soap (GoJo type) and water. There is no need for clean up solvents. Our Epoxy has very little vapor (odor) so work can be done almost anywhere. No masks are necessary with just moderate ventilation. You use approximately 1/3 the amount of epoxy resin to build a board as you would polyester. These last three, immediately above, give you an indication of the reasons epoxies are better for the environment and for labor. Epoxy gives the laminator more work time and there is no real "gel" time to catch you. The resin just gradually thickens as it begins to harden. This allows a higher quality laminate. All the newer fabrics (Kevlar, carbon, s glass, etc.) were designed for use with epoxy. Not surprisingly, they all perform best in an epoxy matrix. On the health issues, with our epoxy (Resin Research), I have never seen any sensitization that doesn't involve a co-toxin. The one in particular in our business is acetone. It serves as a vehicle for toxins through the skin. We eliminated acetone from our shop long ago and have never had any problems. We now use soap and water, which work better anyway. Our resins also do not contain phenol or formaldahyde which many other systems do. These are some other co-toxins I mentioned above. Also our hardeners are based souly on cycloaliphatic diamine technology as uposed to straight chain amines. This also reduces toxicity. We also have safeguards built into our formulations to reduce toxicity. This makes our hardeners much safer to use than most other epoxies.
Mr. Loeh, Was wondering if yo had a minute to answer of few questions about epoxy. In your last post you specify "your epoxy resin"...do you produce this yoursefl? Or do you work in conjunction with an outside source to manufature it. I ask because I would be very interested in giving epoxy a try. You seem very certain that you ahve a great resin and I would want to know if it is commercially available? Also as far as the cost basis compared to polyester...say for a gallon, I can get a gallon of laminating resin for around $30, how does your resin compare? Can you use a UV catalyst with epoxy? I know that gel times with epoxy is slower so this might make the UV catalyst issue moot. On that note, what exactlly do you kick the stuff with?? Lastly, how well does epoxy work with resin pigment? Do i need epoxy pigments, or can I use what i am currently using for polyester? Wold in your opinion, epoxy work well if you wanted to get a nice medium colored tint in the lay-up? Thanks so much! Drew
Just speaking as a hack that occasionally repairs dings, epoxy is pretty cool. I use it now for all my repair jobs. It doesn't smell, sets really slow so I can take my time, and sets up hard when cured. I don't need any special mixes for a gloss coat, just sand and polish it to a glassy finish. Little bumps now don't crack the glass, they leave little scratches that can be sanded down and repolished. To clean up, I just use a little denatured alcohol and soap and water. I now kinda chuckle reading all these rants on this BB on the evils of epoxy. It's like there is some underground conspiracy to wipe out this awful epoxy stuff.
Drew - Greg may answer, but I'll throw in my 2cents. I've used poly pigments with Greg Loehr's Resin Research epoxy and it worked fine. It was a tiger stripe pattern on an otherwise clear board. I don't know if this would be the best way to go, or if doing a full tint or opaque with poly pigments would be a good idea. but for stripes it worked for me. the cost per gallon is more expensive than poly resin, about 2-3 times more per gallon, but you can use less of it in laminating and... with the cost of the epoxy you are getting about 1/2 gallon of the hardener, with the ratios used the liquid volume you end up with is much greater than with a gallon of poly and a few squirts of MEKP. So... This system goes much further than poly. I'm no pro at laminating, but with a gallon of epoxy I lammed a 7'6" and a 6'2, each" with sanding coat and gloss coat, and still had enough left over to lam another short board (been using it for repairs though). If I'd been more careful I could have gotten 3 full boards out of the Gallon set of RR epoxy. live and learn. I think a pro laminator might do much better too. It's a good product. Call RR, the # is in the Resources section. My 2.5 cents, I guess. Eric J
Eric, So for a hot coat and a gloss coat, you don't need to add anything? Just sand and polish? No Thinner, or wax needed?
Drew - There is an additive (called additive F) but I did not use it. RR Epoxy cures gin clear and with a good shine. The F stuff, I think, may help it flow out better on the hot coats. But for the boards I did was not necessary. Note that you can sand lamination epoxy, it cures hard, without wax or additives. Between lam and sanding coat I lightly sanded, and then taped and hotcoated. Using the same resin exactly. I understand that if you can hot coat directly after the lam cures you don't need to sand at all. I had to work on some sloppy areas on the rails where my squeegee technique was less than successful. I was busy cleaning up the laps for a while and figured I'd rough up the surface a bit. Otherwise I'd probably have skipped sanding before the hc altogether. All in all, epoxy is easier and cleaner. I must admit, in a perverse way I kinda like the smell of poly ... I'll miss that. Eric J
Drew - There is an additive (called additive F) but I did not use it. RR Epoxy cures gin clear and with a good shine. The F stuff, I think, may help it flow out better on the hot coats. But for the boards I did was not necessary. Note that you can sand lamination epoxy, it cures hard, without wax or additives. Between lam and sanding coat I lightly sanded, and then taped and hotcoated. Using the same resin exactly. I understand that if you can hot coat directly after the lam cures you don't need to sand at all. I had to work on some sloppy areas on the rails where my squeegee technique was less than successful. I was busy cleaning up the laps for a while and figured I'd rough up the surface a bit. Otherwise I'd probably have skipped sanding before the hc altogether. All in all, epoxy is easier and cleaner. I must admit, in a perverse way I kinda like the smell of poly ... I'll miss that. Eric J
hmm, some great responses, thanks for all the informative answers. a couple more things 1) whats the price difference? and 2) is it harder to work with easier or what. if its so great why isnt poly just obsolete by now. as of what ive heard posted it sounds perfect thanks again dk
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